Christian thoughts on atheism

Non sequitur · Jul 23, 2011

GreenMunchkin said:
Yes, and claiming it's actually just a vacuum is pointless semantics. If there is a God - and I believe there is - your choosing to disbelieve in Him is a (dis)belief system.

A belief system is a "faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society."

I do not have any faith based on a series of beliefs, hence, not a belief system.

GreenMunchkin said:
Actually, no. Some cross over into anti-theism, or even anti-God, and label it "atheism" which sounds more indifferent thus legitimate, but atheists don't hate God. What they hate is that in order to acknowledge Him, they need to hate their own sin. It's easier and less painful to simply deny Him and close the door on it entirely.

That makes no sense.

If I hated to acknowledge him, that means I would have to acknowledge him first.

Which I don't.

GreenMunchkin · Jul 23, 2011

Non sequitur said:
A belief system is a "faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society."

I do not have any faith based on a series of beliefs, hence, not a belief system.

Sure you do. Atheists - particularly those who congregate online - increasingly persuade one another in increasingly loud and wordy voices that they're the only logical ones and what they believe is scientific and empirical and rational and that they have the monopoly on those things. Enough people tell you that, you become convinced of it. Round and round it goes. But when it comes down to it, you simply cannot disprove Him. The onus isn't with to to either prove or disprove His existence, I know that, but until you can say without a shadow of a doubt either way, your opinions on it are faith-based, as are mine.

I haven't been involved in these debates for a very long time so am pretty much coming at this with new eyes but, I should very much like to ask you a question: do you not find the necessary pedantry and verbal knot-tying wearisome? It's such a waste of time. We are reduced to debating the dictionary meaning of "beliefs". Does that not strike you as utterly pointless?

That makes no sense.

If I hated to acknowledge him, that means I would have to acknowledge him first.

Which I don't.

Again, you do. By being here, by talking about Him, by thinking about Him, by discussing Him, you acknowledge Him. Slapping an "I don't acknowledge Him" label on all of that doesn't make it so. You've posted a myriad questions here - God is huge in your life.

Non sequitur · Jul 23, 2011

GreenMunchkin said:
Sure you do. Atheists - particularly those who congregate online - increasingly persuade one another in increasingly loud and wordy voices that they're the only logical ones and what they believe is scientific and empirical and rational and that they have the monopoly on those things. Enough people tell you that, you become convinced of it. Round and round it goes. But when it comes down to it, you simply cannot disprove Him. The onus isn't with to to either prove or disprove His existence, I know that, but until you can say without a shadow of a doubt either way, your opinions on it are faith-based, as are mine.

I never said I could disprove him, I just can't prove him and neither can you.

(I hope you aren't going to try and use "proof" that could equally prove other gods or use tired hippie phrases like "all around us" to make a serious argument...)

I hear Christians try to persuade atheists and one another in increasingly loud and wordy voices, too. That is irrelevant.

The idea of faith is that it is impervious to evidence.

"Atheism" is only inductive sciences/reasoning.

This is not a "belief system", it is just lack of scientific evidence in my support.

GreenMunchkin said:
I haven't been involved in these debates for a very long time so am pretty much coming at this with new eyes but, I should very much like to ask you a question: do you not find the necessary pedantry and verbal knot-tying wearisome?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

GreenMunchkin said:
It's such a waste of time. We are reduced to debating the dictionary meaning of "beliefs". Does that not strike you as utterly pointless?

Not necessarily.

I think both parties should be properly represented and any misunderstanding should try and be corrected.

GreenMunchkin said:
Again, you do. By being here, by talking about Him, by thinking about Him, by discussing Him, you acknowledge Him. Slapping an "I don't acknowledge Him" label on all of that doesn't make it so. You've posted a myriad questions here - God is huge in your life.

Talking and thinking about something does not mean you acknowledge it's existence in reality.

secondtimearound · Jul 24, 2011

Do Christians think atheism is a belief system?

The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.

“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.

An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”

A belief sytem is a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects or a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.

It is what it is.

Do Christians think that atheists hate (their) god?

Pretty hard to know the thoughts of others.

Non sequitur · Jul 24, 2011

secondtimearound said:
The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.

Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.

An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.

A belief sytem is a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects or a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.

It is what it is.

"...petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows.."

That other stuff is their personal beliefs.

Atheism is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities, not a belief. That is the definition.

That's it.

There is no, "and this and this and this..."

secondtimearound · Jul 24, 2011

"...petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows.."

That other stuff is their personal beliefs.

For the atheist who relies so heavily on the prefix (a) they should perhaps take note of the suffix (ism) which indicates a belief or principle. An ism itself is defined as a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice.

It is what it is.

Tell me, in what regards would you hold thier beliefs? Would you agree?

Atheism is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities, not a belief. That is the definition.

That's it.

There is no, "and this and this and this..."

For the atheist who relies so heavily on the prefix (a) they should perhaps take note of the suffix (ism) which indicates a belief or principle. An ism itself is defined as a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice.

It is what it is.

Tell me, in what regards would you hold thier beliefs? Would you agree?

Non sequitur · Jul 24, 2011

Argh, quotes at random...

secondtimearound said:
For the atheist who relies so heavily on the prefix (a) they should perhaps take note of the suffix (ism) which indicates a belief or principle. An ism itself is defined as a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice.

The suffix "ism" also means a "state, condition, attribute, or quality" like pauperism, astigmatism, heroism, anachronism, or metabolism. Is astigmatism a theory? Is metabolism a doctrine? Is anachronism a practice?

secondtimearound said:
Tell me, in what regards would you hold thier beliefs? Would you agree?

I would hold their beliefs as humanistic.

I agree that those would be positive beliefs.

Whether I agree with them or not, that has no ability to add on to a current definition.

If I find a bunch of Christians who believe fried chicken is the best meat out there, do I get to call all who do not share this non-Christian?

Beautiful Ignorance · Jul 24, 2011

Non sequitur said:
Do Christians think atheism is a belief system?

No. Atheism is the absense of a belief in God.

Do Christians think that atheists hate (their) god?

Actually some do. This isn't to say that they actually believe that God exists though. An atheist may hate the Biblical character of God the same way that someone might hate Darth Vader or another fictional character.

LostMarbels · Jul 25, 2011

Way I see it none of us are any different. I dont want atheist preaching to my kids, and they dont want me preaching to theirs. We both want the freedom to live our lives a we deem fit, without someone choaking their belief system down our throught. Yet were both on the internet sharing our belifes. Were both good people, can be caring and helpful in our communites. we can both be idiots too. Were all human and deserve the right to be treated as such, and we both can learn from eachother. The only diferance is the belife in God. So whats the deal?

And their dumb dumb heads....

razeontherock · Jul 31, 2011

Non sequitur said:
The idea of faith is that it is impervious to evidence.

Nope. It isn't. Not at all.

Carry on ...

Non sequitur · Aug 1, 2011

razeontherock said:
Nope. It isn't. Not at all.

Carry on ...

It absolutely is.

When it comes down to it, faith is a belief that is not based on proof.

If there were evidence that your god didn't exist, no matter how overwhelming, you'd still believe in him/her/it.

MetanoiaHeart · Aug 1, 2011

Non sequitur said:
It absolutely is.

When it comes down to it, faith is a belief that is not based on proof.

If there were evidence that your god didn't exist, no matter how overwhelming, you'd still believe in him/her/it.

I wouldn't. If it was proven as absolute undeniable fact that the resurrection of Jesus Christ never happened, I would abandon the faith.

mrmccormo · Aug 1, 2011

The "atheism isn't a belief system" is a tired old horse and it died a long time ago.

Atheists say "we aren't saying that God doesn't exist. We're just saying that we don't believe in God". But they aren't saying "I don't know". Saying "I don't know" is rather easy, actually, and it has a name. "Agnosticism". It is the belief that we simply do not know if God does or does not exist.

But atheism goes beyond that. Atheism states that we have not discovered God. It rejects the idea that any current religion properly defines or reveals any sort of true diety. Additionally, there are a lot of sub-philosophies wrapped up into atheism like the idea that "truth" is relative, "truth" doesn't exist, "truth" can only be obtained by scientific/rationalistic/empirical methods. Different atheists believe different things in these sub-categories, so your mileage may vary. But inherent is the belief (yes, belief) that these methods are the best (or the least deficient) methods for determining a religion's validity.

So, not only does atheism state a religious belief (I believe that no current religion accurately reveals God, if God even exists), but atheism also promotes a certain philosophy (I believe that rationalism/empiricism/science are valid methods for determining the truth of the Divine).

It's a belief. Trying to paint it as anything but is simply dishonest.

Non sequitur · Aug 1, 2011

MetanoiaHeart said:
I wouldn't. If it was proven as absolute undeniable fact that the resurrection of Jesus Christ never happened, I would abandon the faith.

While I'm not sure that could realistically ever be proven, dealing with the supernatural, I applaud and commend you on your honesty!

Non sequitur · Aug 1, 2011

mrmccormo said:
The "atheism isn't a belief system" is a tired old horse and it died a long time ago.

Atheists say "we aren't saying that God doesn't exist. We're just saying that we don't believe in God". But they aren't saying "I don't know". Saying "I don't know" is rather easy, actually, and it has a name. "Agnosticism". It is the belief that we simply do not know if God does or does not exist.

But atheism goes beyond that. Atheism states that we have not discovered God. It rejects the idea that any current religion properly defines or reveals any sort of true diety. Additionally, there are a lot of sub-philosophies wrapped up into atheism like the idea that "truth" is relative, "truth" doesn't exist, "truth" can only be obtained by scientific/rationalistic/empirical methods. Different atheists believe different things in these sub-categories, so your mileage may vary. But inherent is the belief (yes, belief) that these methods are the best (or the least deficient) methods for determining a religion's validity.

So, not only does atheism state a religious belief (I believe that no current religion accurately reveals God, if God even exists), but atheism also promotes a certain philosophy (I believe that rationalism/empiricism/science are valid methods for determining the truth of the Divine).

It's a belief. Trying to paint it as anything but is simply dishonest.

You could say it is a belief, in the sense that I believe vanilla ice cream is tasty, but not a belief system. There is no distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice.

Is there a belief system that believes in not-unicorns?

MetanoiaHeart · Aug 1, 2011

Non sequitur said:
You could say it is a belief, in the sense that I believe vanilla ice cream is tasty, but not a belief system. There is no distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice.

Is there a belief system that believes in not-unicorns?

But that's not really an accurate comparison because unicorns are something which by definition do not exist. God is not by definition nonexistent.

mrmccormo · Aug 1, 2011

Non sequitur said:
You could say it is a belief, in the sense that I believe vanilla ice cream is tasty, but not a belief system. There is no distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice.

Is there a belief system that believes in not-unicorns?

Now you're just being facetious. I'm not saying that you do or do not have to believe in vanilla ice cream, nor am I saying that a belief or belief system is wrong. Belief is wonderful, whether you are religious or not. Belief is hard-wired into the human brain to allow us to function.

You used a system of beliefs to come to your current conclusion. You believe that current religions do not offer an accurate revelation of the Divine. To conclude that, you use a particular system of logic to come to your supporting reasons. That is - in the very essence and defintion of the term - a "belief system". This is so incredibly easy to test that I'm amazed atheists still spout it.

Let me theoretically declare that I'm an atheist. Okay. Now, let me also declare that I believe in Allah and everything that Allah teaches in the Quran. "Well, then you're not an atheist", a clever observer would note. No, I am not, because I do not adhere to the atheistic system of belief.

Now, this isn't your fault. You are not the first atheist, and you are certainly not the first atheist to stomp his feet and demand that atheism is not actually a "belief system". But perhaps a better term would be "organized religion". In this point, I agree with you. But then let's call atheism for what it is: a belief system that is does not adhere to the tenants of an organized religion. See? That wasn't so hard. Now you can go discuss Richard Dawkins quotes with your buddies and no one will reject you.

Non sequitur · Aug 1, 2011

MetanoiaHeart said:
But that's not really an accurate comparison because unicorns are something which by definition do not exist. God is not by definition nonexistent.

Prove both exist, only one exists or neither exist.

mrmccormo · Aug 1, 2011

Non sequitur said:
Prove both exist, only one exists or neither exist.

Prove numbers are real.

MetanoiaHeart · Aug 1, 2011

Non sequitur said:
Prove both exist, only one exists or neither exist.

Why? You're just playing a game. Deliberately putting God on the same level as something that is by definition an imaginary creature does not prove anything except that you believe God is imaginary.

Christian thoughts on atheism

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

Likes things. And stuff. But mostly things.

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

King Kong has everything on me

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

King Kong has everything on me

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

Beautiful Ignorance

Guest

All-Lives-Matter

Well-Known Member

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

MetanoiaHeart

Guest

Newbie

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

MetanoiaHeart

Guest

Newbie

Wokest Bae Of The Forum

Newbie

MetanoiaHeart

Guest

Similar threads