Christian thoughts on atheism

razeontherock

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The erronious ideas that thought and emotion speaks to non physical reality has a great deal of it's origin in dualism. Notice for instance how many people will use(albeit many times metaphorically) the idea of the heart as a seat of emotions,etc.

Perfect example of why responses in this section are limited to C's.

1) Jesus never taught a dualistic perspective. He always taught Spiritual Truth via known physical things, and never separated them.

2) You show a clear lack of understanding of the Biblical term "heart." Which is actually ok, because it is not an easy concept.
 
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Perfect example of why responses in this section are limited to C's.

1) Jesus never taught a dualistic perspective. He always taught Spiritual Truth via known physical things, and never separated them.

2) You show a clear lack of understanding of the Biblical term "heart." Which is actually ok, because it is not an easy concept.

"Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy."

Their hearts were in top physical working order, maybe better health care, so they offered willingly to their God?

"O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:"

The heart has thoughts and imagines stuff?

“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."

Dualism: Set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which begins with the claim that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical.



There appears to be a lot of duality going on...
 
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LOCO

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That doesn't make any sense.

If there was no god that doesn't exist, there would be no atheists?


Is this a circular logic joke?

Yes, it was:)

In answer to your original questions.

1. I don't think atheists believe in anything, no general set of precepts. Atheists are a minority, the majority of the world believes in a a deity of some sort be it Allah, Krishna, Yahweh, God etc.

2. I think that you would have to be an insecure Christian to think that atheists hate the Christian God, I am secure enough in my faith.
 
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Yes, it was:)

In answer to your original questions.

1. I don't think atheists believe in anything, no general set of precepts. Atheists are a minority, the majority of the world believes in a a deity of some sort be it Allah, Krishna, Yahweh, God etc.

2. I think that you would have to be an insecure Christian to think that atheists hate the Christian God, I am secure enough in my faith.

Thanks :)
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Dualism: Set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which begins with the claim that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical.
Then would come the question of the interaction between the two. How would this immaterial mind effect matter? Why has no one yet observed this supposed interaction? Is there some sort of energy directed from the immaterial world into matter and why can't we detect it ? That's why I reject dualism as an unsatisfactory way of viewing things.

All those quotes from the Bible are understandable from a non-dual perspective though. Just not for a non-dual perspective that is materialist in nature. It's all consciousness- Matter, soul, spiritual "heart", etc. All different modulations of consciousness. Consciousness manifesting as matter, consciousness manifesting as soul, ....
 
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Then would come the question of the interaction between the two. How would this immaterial mind effect matter? Why has no one yet observed this supposed interaction? Is there some sort of energy directed from the immaterial world into matter and why can't we detect it ? That's why I reject dualism as an unsatisfactory way of viewing things.

Emotion?


I'm not following.

How does an immaterial mind effect matter? It doesn't.

It effects actions and actions.


I really don't understand what all that was about...

All those quotes from the Bible are understandable from a non-dual perspective though. Just not for a non-dual perspective that is materialist in nature. It's all consciousness- Matter, soul, spiritual "heart", etc. All different modulations of consciousness. Consciousness manifesting as matter, consciousness manifesting as soul, ....

OH, YOUR'E THE HIPPY! :)

So, the quotes from the Bible talking about "the spirit of heart's consciousness", or whatever, is totally understandable without non-tangible stuff?

Hearts are filled with both good and evil, along with maybe a few ounces blood? All just nicely packed in there?

Nobody knew that the heart was related to a (most?) important part of the body and living?

Rip out the beating heart of you opponent and get their "powers"?


Why not say "the spirit of the kneecap"?, then?



Matter is not consciousness. Why do you keep saying this?

Consciousness allows us view and understand matter, but consciousness does not create matter.

You are changing definitions, like nobody's business.


Does this stuff work on women who are not in college, don't smoke a lot of pot, lost their passion for Dave Matthews Band and are over 23?
 
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Ishraqiyun

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How does an immaterial mind effect matter? It doesn't.

It effects actions and actions.
Actions like the movement of ones arm? Are arm is composed of matter right? If there is truly an absolute consciousness / matter dichotomy things would be pretty hard to explain. One common theory is that consciousness is merely an epiphenomena of matter. It's a monism of sorts but of the opposite variety than I proposed. Not many buy into the strict Cartesian dualism anymore.

Why not say "the spirit of the kneecap"?, then?
The experience of it can often cause sensations at that area of the body. People have been known to "see" glowing lights in that region or feel as if their center of attention automatically traveled there. In the Jesus prayer for example attention is drawn to the heart and the sacred name is repeated - "Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me". Whenever attention wanders from the heart it is brought back again. This can be accompanied by feelings of warmth or pain in the region.


Does this stuff work on women who are not in college, don't smoke a lot of pot, lost their passion for Dave Matthews Band and are over 23?
:D Never thought of using that as a pick up line.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Kinda leads you to believe, an infinite number of things, that you are not even aware, of could have caused that chilly.

Yup. You can believe whichever cause you wish. Whatever choice you make is an act of faith.

It's a pity that we rely on logic and objectivity, because we might miss the opportunity to believe the subjective statements that are non-demonstrable?

Yes.

I wouldn't call that a pity. Maybe a reality, or something worth looking into.?

Most certainly never an acceptance of reality.

Okay. I think by this point its clear that neither of us really agree on what the word "reality" means. You would likely say that reality is one in which everything is logical, where everything can be demonstrably proven in the most objective and materialistic sense of the word. I disagree in that I think reality can be highly illogical and that you cannot disregard all subjective claims as not part of reality. I agree with you that your reality is real, but I just think there's "something more" beyond materialism, naturalism, scientism, and the logic of the modern age. You think this "something more" doesn't exist because it doesn't exist by your standards and definitions. That's fine.

Cause their claim lies in the positive.

I'm not sure if this is a sentence and I'm not sure what you mean.

Without needing any proof, every claim would have to be held as true.

Perhaps every claim should be held as true until falsified?

I have no proof, so I happily make no claim that something is correct and/or real.

Are you being sarcastic?
 
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razeontherock

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"Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy."

Their hearts were in top physical working order, maybe better health care, so they offered willingly to their God?

"O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:"

The heart has thoughts and imagines stuff?

“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."

Dualism: Set of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which begins with the claim that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical.



There appears to be a lot of duality going on...

You're not addressing what the text says. Whatever you're concluding is completely out of context, and therefore wrong.
 
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razeontherock

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Hearts are filled with both good and evil, along with maybe a few ounces blood? All just nicely packed in there?

Nobody knew that the heart was related to a (most?) important part of the body and living?

Rip out the beating heart of you opponent and get their "powers"?

Do you even pretend to be talking about what the text says?
 
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Non sequitur

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I agree with you that your reality is real, but I just think there's "something more" beyond materialism, naturalism, scientism, and the logic of the modern age. You think this "something more" doesn't exist because it doesn't exist by your standards and definitions. That's fine.

I think there might be "something else", too.

I just don't have the need to jump to one of the many claims, so I can "know" it.

Perhaps every claim should be held as true until falsified?

If there wasn't theism, there wouldn't be any atheists.

"I know the leprechaun didn't knock over your motorcycle."

I'm ok with taking that claim as true and not needing to call a spiritual investigator.
 
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You're not addressing what the text says. Whatever you're concluding is completely out of context, and therefore wrong.

The original text was saying there was no duality spoken.

All of that applies.
 
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Hakan101

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The original text was saying there was no duality spoken.

All of that applies.

You're deliberately interpreting the text in a purely literal manner so that its message it lost to you. If you stop playing games it will make more sense.
 
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You're deliberately interpreting the text in a purely literal manner so that its message it lost to you. If you stop playing games it will make more sense.

It was literal text talking about non-literal and/or physical things.

It's talking about something physical thing, with non-physical and emotional properties.

I'd say you are playing a game, by not acknowledging that.
 
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razeontherock

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The original text was saying there was no duality spoken.

All of that applies.

The text did not mention duality. The text speaks of things you apparently have yet to consider. That doesn't put you in a good position to be drawing conclusions.
 
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The text did not mention duality. The text speaks of things you apparently have yet to consider. That doesn't put you in a good position to be drawing conclusions.

It didn't talk about duality, it spoke with/in duality.
 
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razeontherock

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Pure assumption. And your assumption makes you miss the point. Since this is a family forum I cannot spell out for you the consequences of assuming, so I'll have to let you figure that out for yourself. Here is the text again, and it will do you good to pinpoint where in the text you see the duality:

"Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy."


"O LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:"



“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."
 
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SonOfTheWest

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It was literal text talking about non-literal and/or physical things.

It's talking about something physical thing, with non-physical and emotional properties.

I'd say you are playing a game, by not acknowledging that.

Unfortunately I think modern Christianity plays well into people playing word games about these sort of things.
 
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Do Christians think atheism is a belief system?
Yes, and claiming it's actually just a vacuum is pointless semantics. If there is a God - and I believe there is - your choosing to disbelieve in Him is a (dis)belief system.
Christians think that atheists hate (their) god?
Actually, no. Some cross over into anti-theism, or even anti-God, and label it "atheism" which sounds more indifferent thus legitimate, but atheists don't hate God. What they hate is that in order to acknowledge Him, we need to hate our own sin. It's easier and less painful to simply deny Him and close the door on it entirely.
 
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