The replacement

visionary said:

There is the thought that "Israel" should scripturally be replaced with the term "church" on all the good blessings God lays on "Israel"'s head.. and all the curses the Israelites can keep.

My question to you is.. where do you stand on the replacement theology?

Do you think that the Catholic Papacy is the best replacement?
Do you see Israel being replaced by Christians in general?

Vatican rejects “chosen people” claim, calls on Israel to end “occupation” — RT

This theology also effects the political climate in the nations view of Israel and its very existence.

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as "the church" replacing Israel. Jesus Christ fulfilled all that Israel couldn't...or wouldn't.

Jesus Christ IS Israel.

simonthezealot said:

Israel is not replaced by the church.
Alot of my very smart friends are amillenialists aka replacement theology folk... Truth is there needs to be an awful lot of manipulating scripture to avoid what is clearly in the bible...Most times when we remove an interpretation from what it clearly says we are walking on some ground bolstered by our own pride...
Far as I know the order of the sun and the moon are still the same so how do we say God abandoned His promised covenants? see Jeremiah 31:
The New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
35 Thus says the Lord,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the Lord of hosts is his name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the Lord,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever.”

Click to expand...

Which house do you belong to? Israel or Judah?

CalmRon said:

The natural born decendants were 'cut off from' by the time Christ, it's to Christ that the promises were ultimately made- note that in Hebrews, the author points out that the promise was made to Abraham and his seed; he points out that it is to a singular seed not plural. That seed is Jesus Christ. Jesus was the only member of corporate Israel who was never disqualified to inherit the promise. There by making him the remnant of israel when all others were cut off. This should not surprise anyone because God did it in the past with large chunks of Israel; in the wilderness after the exodus god punished Israel many time for their unfaithfulness. He caused plagues to break out against them cutting off from corporate Israel all those individuals who sinned. Later he almost removed the tribe of Benjamin from israel. Later still he removes the north kingdom out of the inheritance. Later still he sends Judah into exile and only brings back A remnant. Why should it surprise you that God left Jesus as the final remnant of israel to whom the promises were given? All who believe are grafted in to that tree; one of the prophets states that a shoot grows out of the stump of Jesse, and we of faith are grafted in to that. Or again Jesus states I am the true vineouTou are the branches. It is not as though those who were once in Israel cannot be grafted in; Paul himself knew that the Jews no longer had claim to the promise except by christ.

Click to expand...

Very good, well stated. People fight it out, Israel versus "the church", without ever realizing that in Christ all are one. If one is in Christ they are part of Israel, Jesus, and part of His body, the church.

Voted Yes due to wording
Is (Israel still a nation) and/or (will be that nation which will represent God's people) ?
If (A) Or (B)
A=True
Answer = True.
Doesn't matter (B)

This is pretty kool between the Jews and the Gentiles (here) according to the predetermined counsel of God


Acts 13:42 And when the Jewswere gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles **besought** that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Now, as God says (In His great scheme of things)

Duet 10:12 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews **saw** the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and **spake against** those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

1Peter 4:14... on their part he is **evil spoken of**, but on your part he is glorified.

That seems to be the prophecy, or what he is "set for" (to be spoken against)

Luke 2:34 Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be **spoken against**

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It worked, they were ticked off and jealous according to the word of God

Ephes 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Its all in good hands He does it by His design and purpose

I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

visionary said:

Yeah.... I sat and pondered how to better word it in as few words as possible.. and couldn't come up with a better way.. sorry

Click to expand...

Multiple Choice Poll Function

RND said:

Which house do you belong to? Israel or Judah?

Click to expand...

The commonwealth of Israel.

simonthezealot said:

The commonwealth of Israel.

Click to expand...

Ala Jeopardy: Who is Christ Jesus?

RND said:

There is no such thing as "the church" replacing Israel. Jesus Christ fulfilled all that Israel couldn't...or wouldn't.

Jesus Christ IS Israel.

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ is Israel? Did the LORD make a covenant with Himself, then?

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:32

Lion King said:

Jesus Christ is Israel? Did the LORD make a covenant with Himself, then?

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:32

Click to expand...

Actually He did.

Hbr 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Hbr 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Romans says essentially the same thing.

Lion King said:

Jesus Christ is Israel? Did the LORD make a covenant with Himself, then?

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:32

Click to expand...

All that Torah prophecy pointed to was Christ Jesus. What the nation of Israel failed to do Jesus did. All prophecy regarding Israel was fulfilled in Jesus.

RND said:

All that Torah prophecy pointed to was Christ Jesus. What the nation of Israel failed to do Jesus did. All prophecy regarding Israel was fulfilled in Jesus.

Click to expand...

I know the Law and the prophets all pointed to the Messiah, but was Israel ever meant to fulfill anything? No human feat could ever accomplish anything that Jesus Christ did.

The Law basically pointed out that we need a Savior, since not one could be made perfect through their own effort.

I like what God says here..."ye shall be"

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

And spoken by Peter likewise here... "ye are"

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Ephes 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope,and without God in the world:

Ephes 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephes 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephes 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (the Beloved Son) also by whom our sacrifices are acceptable

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren

Romans 8:9 ...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

RND said:

All that Torah prophecy pointed to was Christ Jesus. What the nation of Israel failed to do Jesus did.
All prophecy regarding Israel was fulfilled in Jesus.

Click to expand...

Just imagine how much more peace there would be in the religious world, if the unbelieving Jews and Muslims would believe that

Luke 21:22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be ful-filled all the having been written.

1 Peter 4:7 Of All-things yet the end has-neared;
be sane! then and be sober! into the prayers,

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the Words of this, the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been written
for the time nigh.
[Revelation 22:10]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

Matthew 21:13 - And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Shortly thereafter Christ says
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Matt 23)


When Christ said your house, He was speaking about the temple.


We can see in Daniel that the people were given a set time to get their act together:
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy (Daniel 9:24).

Jumping back to Christ, we see that they didn't get their act together -
But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar (John 19:15)

In Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Christ speaks to the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia about those who say they are Jews and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan. Here we see distinction being made within the church, by God, of those who are really following Him (Jews) and those who are lying about following them (Say they are Jews and are not).

RND said:

Actually He did.

Hbr 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Hbr 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

Romans says essentially the same thing.

Click to expand...

Did you read that passage you just gave me? It says the LORD made a promise to Abraham...meaning an agreement with Abraham.

"Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;" Psalm 105:9http://bible.cc/psalms/105-10.htm

"And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly." Genesis 17:2

"In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" Genesis 15:18http://bible.cc/genesis/15-19.htm

Lion King said:

I know the Law and the prophets all pointed to the Messiah, but was Israel ever meant to fulfill anything?

Click to expand...

They were a "type" of Christ that pointed to Him. They could fulfill nothing. Only Christ could. If Israel could have fulfilled anything Christ would have been unnecessary.

No human feat could ever accomplish anything that Jesus Christ did.

Click to expand...

Nor "national" feat.

The Law basically pointed out that we need a Savior, since not one could be made perfect through their own effort.

Click to expand...

Hence you answered your own question.

Lion King said:

Did you read that passage you just gave me? It says the LORD made a promise to Abraham...meaning an agreement with Abraham.

"Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;" Psalm 105:9

"And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly." Genesis 17:2

"In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" Genesis 15:18

Click to expand...

I did! And since no one could validate that covenant other than God Himself He swore (vowed) by Himself. Notice it always refers to the covenant as the one "He" made?

What your are referring to in Jeremiah are "promises".