The Market, 101

IbrahimFahim

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Just as a reminder, the Market does react to issues, such as NOT raising the debt ceiling.

When Republicans voted down TARP for the first time, the DOW dropped over 777 points.

Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyone who actually watches real news would know that the possibility of what are effectively minuscule economies in Greece, Italy, Spain, or Portugal defaulting are causing significant waves in economic markets.

What do people think will happen if the USA defaults?

The credit rating of the USA is already in jeopardy.

The Republican party, and tea party membership, is advocating suicide by not raising the debt ceiling, they will hurt hundreds of thousands, and the poor will be the hardest hit.

This is why people are questioning Amerrican economic knowledge, calling Americans economically illiterate, and pointing out how disconnected many Americans are.

Republicans are playing with fire, and dealing with ideology over knowledge and reason.
 

blueapplepaste

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It's also funny to hear them screaming about how we need to produce a more business friendly climate when said businesses are calling on them to raise the debt ceiling.

These radicals are a joke who are playing Russian roulette with our economy.
 
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Notamonkey

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Yet the Euros are broke and implimenting austarity measures but here the socialist libs refuse to see what we are headed for and want to just tax and spend more of what we don't have. I guess more riots are in order in Europe to stop the "radicals" who get that they are broke. Nothing to see here.
 
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citizenthom

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Republicans have been trying to work out a deal to raise the debt ceiling. They are simply looking for a deal that involves solving the underlying problem--our federal spending binge--at the same time. It is President Obama, who refuses to agree to cuts of a real magnitude, that is playing Russian Roulette--the same game of Russian Roulette the neocons in both parties have been playing for forty years.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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Yet the Euros are broke and implimenting austarity measures but here the socialist libs refuse to see what we are headed for and want to just tax and spend more of what we don't have. I guess more riots are in order in Europe to stop the "radicals" who get that they are broke. Nothing to see here.

You are not even using the words correctly. No socialism is at play here, the Euros? Do you mean the currency or the Eurozone? Because neither are broke!?! And the plan proposed was not tax and spend. Nothing you have said is true, or even touching reality.

Can you directly address my argument, instead of resorting to the nu-uh argument?
 
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IbrahimFahim

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Republicans have been trying to work out a deal to raise the debt ceiling. They are simply looking for a deal that involves solving the underlying problem--our federal spending binge--at the same time. It is President Obama, who refuses to agree to cuts of a real magnitude, that is playing Russian Roulette--the same game of Russian Roulette the neocons in both parties have been playing for forty years.

Republicans were offered the deal they said they wanted a few months ago, and they rejected it.

To prove my point, provide the specifics on what Obama has offered and show how it is inadequate.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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Euros- short for Euopeans. There is no detailed plan for cutting spending by Obama's camp, just raising the debt limit and taxes.

There is, the one the Republicans wanted a few months ago, and it was rejected.
 
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citizenthom

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Republicans were offered the deal they said they wanted a few months ago, and they rejected it.

To prove my point, provide the specifics on what Obama has offered and show how it is inadequate.

President Obama abruptly walks out of talks - Jonathan Allen and Jake Sherman - POLITICO.com

Latest word is the Republicans are asking for:

-No tax increases
-Dollar-for-dollar matching between the debt increase and the spending cuts
-$2.5 trillion in spending cuts over 10 years

Please show where Obama offered that deal.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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President Obama abruptly walks out of talks - Jonathan Allen and Jake Sherman - POLITICO.com

Latest word is the Republicans are asking for:

-No tax increases
-Dollar-for-dollar matching between the debt increase and the spending cuts
-$2.5 trillion in spending cuts over 10 years

Please show where Obama offered that deal.

There are no tax increases, loopholes are being closed, which Republicans have not considered tax increases in the past. To head you off at the pass, I've been sitting on a quote from Ronald Reagan where he says that closing loopholes is not raising taxes, waiting for someone to be uninformed enough to say that it is, so...don't be that guy.

The Republicans originally asked for a 85-15 split, and they were offered a 87-13 split. Cuts,vs revenue increases.

The Republicans have been handed a deal on a silver platter, and it is a testament to how out of touch they are with reality that they will not agree.

That they are supported is testament to how uninformed the American populace actually is.
 
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kermit

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Republicans have been trying to work out a deal to raise the debt ceiling. They are simply looking for a deal that involves solving the underlying problem--our federal spending binge--at the same time. It is President Obama, who refuses to agree to cuts of a real magnitude, that is playing Russian Roulette--the same game of Russian Roulette the neocons in both parties have been playing for forty years.
Reps were offered every cut they asked for. In exchange Dems want some revenue increases. Reps should jump at that as both spending cuts and revenue increases will reduce the deficit.

Reps are on the verge of loosing everything they said they wanted. Obama can make an exective order. Since it's budgetary it would require congressional approval. The House will of course reject it, but then Obama will veto their vote and the exective order becomes law. All perfectly legal under congressional parlamentary procedures. Basically, Obama doesn't need any Rep support to extend the debt ceiling, that he trying get a bipartisan bill proves that he is an honest broker. At the same time that the Reps are refusing to budge at all from their position proves that they are not.

I don't believe that Reps really want any cuts. I think they just want to be on record for cuts. By dragging this out they are forcing the president do what I describe above which will enable them take a position that will make them look good to Tea Party voters, but will not cost them any votes due to the consequences of spending cuts. This has been the Republican mantra for years; make enough effort to make it seem like your doing the things you say you'd do but don't actually do any of it. Spending cuts will give them favor in the next election, but without that rallying point what carries them in the next election? In politics it's better to try and fail than to succeed. Remember in the early years of the Bush admin Reps said they wanted privatize Social Security. They had to votes to do it and a President that was on board, yet they didn't do it.
 
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kermit

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You're apparently stupid, because the Republicans do want to raise the debt ceiling, it's just the tea party that doesn't.
And the Republicans are beholden to the Tea Party.

And actually, it's more like 60% of Americans don't want the debt ceiling raised, and that includes Republicans and Democrats.
Actually, over 70% of Americans support the Dem plan to cut spending and to raise taxes.

Democrats don't realize that something must actually be DONE
That's a nice claim that is not backed by facts. Dems are proposing cuts. In fact, they have to agreed to just about every Rep cut.

And we need to balance the damned budget.
Which can only be done by cutting spending and by raising revenue.

And kermit, I think you're so smart. Who wouldn't want to be elected and have all that power and then do NOTHING with it? Man, I'm so jealous of your intellectual aptitude.
They get power by claiming they are going to do A, B and C. When in power they do X, Y and Z, but give A, B and C enough lip service for those issues to remain rallying point in the next election.
 
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blueapplepaste

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Republicans have been trying to work out a deal to raise the debt ceiling. They are simply looking for a deal that involves solving the underlying problem--our federal spending binge--at the same time. It is President Obama, who refuses to agree to cuts of a real magnitude, that is playing Russian Roulette--the same game of Russian Roulette the neocons in both parties have been playing for forty years.

I didn't realize this until last night, but it made me realize just how empty the Republicans desires to reign in spending really are. The Ryan plan that every member in the House signed onto, projects a debt up to $23 trillion by 2021 and only reduces deficit spending by $155 billion over 10 years.

Their own proposals only decrease spending an average of $15 billion a year! Not to mention their own plan requires the government to take on another $9 trillion in debt. So much for the party of fiscal responsibility. These guys are a joke and are more interested in trying to win elections than governing.

Edited for link (which links to actual plan): http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionl...e-they-just-endorsed-a-higher-debt-limit.html
 
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blueapplepaste

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"Let the country default on its loans for tax breaks on private jets!"

The "party of fiscal responsibility", everybody!
Ringo

Don't you know that if those millionaires have their private jets that it benefits everyone?! If they have to switch to commercial flights or pay a little extra to fly private, it will result in economic doom!!!

[/irresponsible GOP talking point]
 
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Museveni

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Don't you know that if those millionaires have their private jets that it benefits everyone?! If they have to switch to commercial flights or pay a little extra to fly private, it will result in economic doom!!!

[/irresponsible GOP talking point]


Keynesian Trickle-down economy(build from the top down) in action.

The problem the US has now is that you're basicly betwen a rock and a hard place economicly. Both parties have in their own way stretched Keynes' economic teachings to the breaking point but have taken it so far that switching to Hayek's/Austrian school's "bottom up" economy wont be possible without a serious purge and we are talking serious here, like total economic downfall and people sneaking over the border into Juarez Mexico for stable work for a number of years ahead befor the economy can get stable again(steel shower as it is called) and hopefully this time build it on real wealth and market prices and not imagenary monopoly money and moronic ideas that increaseing the wealth for the few automaticly means prosperity for everyone.

Keynes Broken Glass theory doesn't work, increasing the wealth of the rich so they spend more doesn't automaticly increase the wealth of the poor(mostly becuase it doesn't automaticly means the money is spent inside the country).
 
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EdwinWillers

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"Let the country default on its loans for tax breaks on private jets!"

The "party of fiscal responsibility", everybody!
Ringo
YESSIR! :thumbsup: No misrepresentation here - unh uh, nosirree bob. Specific, unambiguous, and utterly truthful representation of exactly what the other side is saying - to a word no less.
 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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Reps were offered every cut they asked for. In exchange Dems want some revenue increases. Reps should jump at that as both spending cuts and revenue increases will reduce the deficit.

Are we not allowed to call them "tax increases" now?

Reps are on the verge of loosing everything they said they wanted. Obama can make an exective order. Since it's budgetary it would require congressional approval. The House will of course reject it, but then Obama will veto their vote and the exective order becomes law. All perfectly legal under congressional parlamentary procedures. Basically, Obama doesn't need any Rep support to extend the debt ceiling, that he trying get a bipartisan bill proves that he is an honest broker. At the same time that the Reps are refusing to budge at all from their position proves that they are not.

That sounds like a great idea. Why do we even need Congress?

Shall we elect Obama dictator for a year?
 
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