Icon Corner

So we probably all do it, I mean churches do it too. It's still someone elses intellectual property.
It's something that comes with art for some reason, it's always treated like it was made for someone elses enjoyment and with no concern of the creator. It still doesn't make it right...

This sort of thing is why I told my Mom to stay away from here.

Blackknight said:

A print from a jpeg file is hardly ideal but if that's all somebody can afford then what's the harm? I can understand going after somebody for selling printed mounts of your work or something like that but if it's just for personal use I'd just be glad that somebody is enjoying my work.

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That was my thought, too. Icons are for prayer.

Also, as a non-commercial, educational use with no detrimental effect on the overall value of the work, printing out a low-resolution image for personal prayer very likely qualifies as fair use under US copyright law.

Khaleas said:

So we probably all do it, I mean churches do it too. It's still someone elses intellectual property.
It's something that comes with art for some reason, it's always treated like it was made for someone elses enjoyment and with no concern of the creator. It still doesn't make it right...

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The ends never justifies the means.

Michael G said:

Neon, you have not spent the past 15 years and a lot of money studying iconography the way I have. Nor have you spent the past 3 years teaching your student everything that you know about iconography. Nor have you studied countless professionally made prints of icons that are 10 years old only to see their colors and radiancy faded into almost nothing due to the low quality of the cheap work. Maybe if you saw things from my point of view you would understand why it is so very offensive to me that the OP suggest he steal a few icons off line until such time that he can afford to buy a cheaply made mounted print or 2. I did not know the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Steal" had a caveat to it that it was OK to steal in the name of Christ...

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I have spent 20 years studying iconography. I have dedicated my life to it. I have lived on the edge of poverty because of it. I have made countless sacrifices to keep doing this work. But I didn't do any of this because I am building a business or creating intellectual property.

I did this because it is God's work. I continue doing this because for some reason, God set this path in front of me even though I never asked for it. I do this because in spite of what I bring to my art, through God's grace it helps people on the path to salvation.

Joseph doesn't want to steal anything. If he did, he would have just printed the pictures out and been done with it. He wants to do what is right, he's just hoping that there is a solution that allows him to have an icon of his patron saint and another beloved saint while still allowing him to buy food. If all he is using it for is for personal prayer, I don't care if he prints out my icons from the web. They are low quality, but they are better than nothing. I told him so in a private message, and I hope he checks back to at least get that.

Yes, I want to make a living, I want to provide for my family. I would love it if God would see fit to make me a slightly less poor person, but I am not going to pitch a fit over a few low resolution images that some college student prints out. May God bless him with those images. It is one thing to go after commercial ventures that steal images for personal gain, it is another thing to insist that something that is supposed to be the work of the Holy Spirit through our hands is something that we should fight to keep others from using.

This should not take away from the message that people should support iconographers in their ministries. We should all support the ministries of others in the church to the best of our abilities, but no one who ministers to others should set financial gain above helping others.

Joseph, if you give me your address I will send you an icon. 8 x 10, mounted on wood.

nutroll said:

I have spent 20 years studying iconography. I have dedicated my life to it. I have lived on the edge of poverty because of it. I have made countless sacrifices to keep doing this work. But I didn't do any of this because I am building a business or creating intellectual property.

I did this because it is God's work. I continue doing this because for some reason, God set this path in front of me even though I never asked for it. I do this because in spite of what I bring to my art, through God's grace it helps people on the path to salvation.

Joseph doesn't want to steal anything. If he did, he would have just printed the pictures out and been done with it. He wants to do what is right, he's just hoping that there is a solution that allows him to have an icon of his patron saint and another beloved saint while still allowing him to buy food. If all he is using it for is for personal prayer, I don't care if he prints out my icons from the web. They are low quality, but they are better than nothing. I told him so in a private message, and I hope he checks back to at least get that.

Yes, I want to make a living, I want to provide for my family. I would love it if God would see fit to make me a slightly less poor person, but I am not going to pitch a fit over a few low resolution images that some college student prints out. May God bless him with those images. It is one thing to go after commercial ventures that steal images for personal gain, it is another thing to insist that something that is supposed to be the work of the Holy Spirit through our hands is something that we should fight to keep others from using.

This should not take away from the message that people should support iconographers in their ministries. We should all support the ministries of others in the church to the best of our abilities, but no one who ministers to others should set financial gain above helping others.

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Both you know and I know that neither of us has made much of anything from iconography. Neither of us has gotten rich from it, nor are either of us paid what an artist who has the time in trade is worth. And many here will attest to the fact that I have given away many, many icons to those who I feel need them. However, what does make me cringe is people making very bad quality copies of icons off line. As I said to the OP in private message, I would much rather send him copies of my work that I have already produced than have him print them off line. Icons are in fact sacred and it is incumbent that they be shown a bit of respect.

Gregorios said:

Joseph, if you give me your address I will send you an icon. 8 x 10, mounted on wood.

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I already took care of that.

Michael G said:

Neon, you have not spent the past 15 years and a lot of money studying iconography the way I have. Nor have you spent the past 3 years teaching your student everything that you know about iconography. Nor have you studied countless professionally made prints of icons that are 10 years old only to see their colors and radiancy faded into almost nothing due to the low quality of the cheap work. Maybe if you saw things from my point of view you would understand why it is so very offensive to me that the OP suggest he steal a few icons off line until such time that he can afford to buy a cheaply made mounted print or 2. I did not know the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Steal" had a caveat to it that it was OK to steal in the name of Christ...

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All thet lurnin' shuld'of tot u sumthin'.

Joseph,
There are many people here who support honest inquiry and don't jump down peoples' throats for asking a question. You don't have to leave, but you may want to make use of the ignore button. Please send me your address; I will make sure you get an icon from a good iconographer.

TAWers,
I think too many of us make use of the ignore button because we are too slow when seeing someone be unnecessarily berated. To continue in the same idea, recently discussed, of keeping TAW positive and not letting arguments get out of hand, let's work on that!

Michael, I understand your struggle as an iconographer, and how it must bother you when people illegally take icons.

But this man obviously can barely afford bread, and he was asking, with good intentions, whether it would be alright to print out some icons online. A simple "It probably wouldnt be a good idea" would be a lot better than the response you gave him.

Again, I apologize for any disrespect, I probably shouldnt even be commenting.

neon_knights said:

Michael, I understand your struggle as an iconographer, and how it must bother you when people illegally take icons.

But this man obviously can barely afford bread, and he was asking, with good intentions, whether it would be alright to print out some icons online. A simple "It probably wouldnt be a good idea" would be a lot better than the response you gave him.

Again, I apologize for any disrespect, I probably shouldnt even be commenting.

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Wisdom from a 15 year old. Looks like he made the best use of his 15 years.

neon_knights said:

Michael, I understand your struggle as an iconographer, and how it must bother you when people illegally take icons.

But this man obviously can barely afford bread, and he was asking, with good intentions, whether it would be alright to print out some icons online. A simple "It probably wouldnt be a good idea" would be a lot better than the response you gave him.

Again, I apologize for any disrespect, I probably shouldnt even be commenting.

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The conversation about theft of intellectual property still needs to be had, but now is not the time and place. I did tell him that I would MUCH rather send him mounted prints of my work than have him print them off line, but that seems to have gone unnoticed.

Michael G said:

The conversation about theft of intellectual property still needs to be had, but now is not the time and place. I did tell him that I would MUCH rather send him mounted prints of my work than have him print them off line, but that seems to have gone unnoticed.

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I very much appreciate that you offered to send him a print. That really goes to show that you really do care.

I think you saw the thread I created There is a coward pretending to be a Christian in our midsts. You did not ask for this, it was my own reaction to hearing about how you were treated. I was willing to pay for that post, whatever it might cost, and indeed, it did not meet with "approval" from the management, as I am sure you understand. That is fine with me, Michael, because you are worth it. I mean that, Michael. Please don't think that anything I say here is vindictive or mean spirited.

The words you said early in the thread, really made this inquirer out to be like a thief for asking a simple question. Please forgive me here; as much as I hate to give unsolicited advice, I really think this ought to be acknowledged too. Inquirers so often have enough going against their inquiry, that we really shouldn't be treating them bad for asking questions that they have no reason to already know the answer to.

Now, please don't think I'm being holier-than-thou. There are plenty of times when I come across harsher than I intend to. There have been plenty of times that I have apologized for my words. There are likely several instances where I still owe apologies as well.

I hope you understand that while I think there is an opportunity to grow here, in no way does this lessen my admiration of you, your talent, or your character. I admire so much of what I have seen of your work and your words, Michael. I am ashamed of myself to presume to council my spiritual elder... But I could not fail to say something considering what I have read here. Please take this in the spirit it was intended... If I am wrong, at least I came to you with this in a spirit of brotherly love, not in a spirit of condemnation.

Michael G said:

The conversation about theft of intellectual property still needs to be had, but now is not the time and place. I did tell him that I would MUCH rather send him mounted prints of my work than have him print them off line, but that seems to have gone unnoticed.

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But you only offered, once you had welll and truly made him to look and feel like a thief. It didn't go unnoticed.

cobweb said:

... and we lose another inquirer.

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And not only inquirers. I'm outta here.

That's a shame, please don't go It won't make the place better if you leave.

Michael - the two other people here who make their living as iconographers have told you that you're in the wrong. I think maybe you should listen to them.

Joseph, I hope you're reading this and give us another chance.

This may be going off-topic, but with a couple people saying they're leaving in this thread, I want to say it here and hope they'll see it.

I've noticed several people leaving recently because of how things are going here. I hope they change their mind and I hope they'll stay. It's terrible to see people leave because of the actions of a few have upset them.

So may times, people are run off because of the actions of others. I think that we forget that we are all human and we are prone to making mistakes. The internet compounds this problem as the degree of anonymity that it grants creates a forum where we say things we never would say in person. In addition, things that may be meant in a genuine way can often be taken wrong due to the fact that we're just reading it and we can't hear the tone or see the expression in the person's face. It ends up turning into situations where we are easily offended and we easily offend.

I have seen several people on the path to Orthodoxy leave it. When I ask why, they'll tell me because of the actions or words of another, or several. I ask them, "What did you expect? Only perfect people?" We are all struggling and we are all human. If we leave fellowship because of the actions or words of a few people or are offended because we misunderstood something or we forget that the person we were offended by is human, we hurt ourselves more then anyone else.

I post this as someone who has both offended and been offended. I ask forgiveness if anyone is offended by what I say now. I hope that, instead of leaving because of being upset, everyone, instead, learn from this. Perhaps learn that maybe there are better ways of saying things, especially in a place where the only thing we have are words, and the other aspects of language are missing. In addition, maybe remember that the person we disagree with is also human and will make mistakes just as we all do.

Please forgive me if this is out of line.

I came to the realization yesterday that we are probably doing more harm to inquirers here than good. Are we helping people in their Faith right now or driving them away? It was the same way about 4 or 5 years ago and I nearly quit my inquiry. Do I want to be a part of a board that makes someone else feel that way?

If I can't in good faith suggest that my inquiring mother visit TAW because folks would make her cry, why am I here? When it comes to the point that I feel like I need to go to confession over this board... it is time to walk away.

TAW gets me down sometimes. But I want to stay here to try to be a positive influence on conversations and answer questions from inquirers.

M.

cobweb said:

I came to the realization yesterday that we are probably doing more harm to inquirers here than good. Are we helping people in their Faith right now or driving them away? It was the same way about 4 or 5 years ago and I nearly quit my inquiry. Do I want to be a part of a board that makes someone else feel that way?

If I can't in good faith suggest that my inquiring mother visit TAW because folks would make her cry, why am I here? When it comes to the point that I feel like I need to go to confession over this board... it is time to walk away.

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If all the positiveness of the board leaves, only the negative aspects will remain. Then what happens when someone comes? They only see the bad side, whereas if people like you stay, it may help them to remember not to base their views on only one type or one situation and can be helpful to them.


Just a thought...not even sure if that makes sense.