Icon Corner

Joseph Hazen · Jul 12, 2011

I have two questions:

1) I was given three glass bottles recently, which I was going to use to store some things in my Icon Corner. One already has Theopany Water in it, the second is going to be used for some holy oil from the Sepulchre of St. John Maximovitch. As a Roman Catholic I had some blessed salt, and I was going to put this in the third bottle, but I mentioned it to a friend and he seemed surprised, never having heard of any such thing in Orthodoxy. Is Blessed Salt not something we use, worse is it something we shouldn't use? If so is there anything anyone might think to put in the third bottle? I could just have the two, no big deal.

2) Do you feel it is wrong, if one cannot afford to buy icons, to print out the images and use some frames you have? I'd love to have an icon of St. Joseph the Betrothed, my patron, and St. John Maximovitch, my Slava, but can't find 'ancient' icons of either (one for obvious reasons). I don't want to be using something that's not ok (printed paper icons) or rob honest Iconographers of their due (using their images). What if I knew these were temporary until I could get them replaced by mounted prints, or better yet real versions, and made sure to get them from the Iconographer who's image I'd been using? What do you think, better to just go without?

Thank you!

Michael G · Jul 12, 2011

Printing images and putting them in frames is like putting spam ham on your dinner plate and serving it to a king. Seriously. This is the best you can do for Christ? First, you are stealing those images from the iconographer who painted them, or if they are ancient, from the church who owns their rights. Second, if you print them from on line, you are taking the lowest grade file there is to make an icon? Even an inexpensive print is only $10.00 in a 5x7 (from me, plus shipping) It is better to have one mounted print than a whole bunch of low grade, poorly made framed prints that you took without permission from the internet. The end (having a full icon corner) never justifies the means (stealing from an iconographer).

Joseph Hazen · Jul 12, 2011

Michael G said:
Printing images and putting them in frames is like putting spam ham on your dinner plate and serving it to a king. Seriously. This is the best you can do for Christ? First, you are stealing those images from the iconographer who painted them, or if they are ancient, from the church who owns their rights. Second, if you print them from on line, you are taking the lowest grade file there is to make an icon? Even an inexpensive print is only $10.00 in a 5x7 (from me, plus shipping) It is better to have one mounted print than a whole bunch of low grade, poorly made framed prints that you took without permission from the internet. The end (having a full icon corner) never justifies the means (stealing from an iconographer).

Forgive me for asking a question.

You may consider your tone when writing online, Michael. You'll notice that the whole reason I was asking is because I didn't want to steal from any iconographer. I honestly cannot afford to buy anything else right now, and I'm going through a really, really, REALLY hard time. The presence of my icons helps me to concentrate, pray, and yeah, as sad as it may be, to feel better. I only have a few, all gifts, three of the Theotokos and one of Christ, and I wanted to see the faces of my patrons as well. I'm sorry if my faith is just so weak that I look for a little extra help.

Whatever

Michael G · Jul 12, 2011

So what you are really telling us is you can not afford the $25.00 it would cost you for (2) 5x7 icons, one each of St. John of San Francisco and of St. Joseph the Betrothed? That is what those 2 plus shipping would cost you?

I know this, this is why every icon I put on line is watermarked and why I have warned everyone alive that if they steal an icon from me from off line I will prosecute them for theft of the full value of the icon ($400.00 each).

Joseph Hazen · Jul 12, 2011

Michael G said:
So what you are really telling us is you can not afford the $25.00 it would cost you for (2) 5x7 icons, one each of St. John of San Francisco and of St. Joseph the Betrothed? That is what those 2 plus shipping would cost you?

When you're a college student and it's looking like you're going to have to pay your rent next month with a credit card, when you go and stay with your parents for weeks because you can't find a job so you can't afford to use your air conditioning or buy food, when you can't even afford to offer money to your church, even the dollar for a candle, then yes Michael, you cannot afford $25 for Icons, as much as you may want to.

Michael G · Jul 12, 2011

Joseph Hazen said:
Forgive me for asking a question.

You may consider your tone when writing online, Michael. You'll notice that the whole reason I was asking is because I didn't want to steal from any iconographer. I honestly cannot afford to buy anything else right now, and I'm going through a really, really, REALLY hard time. The presence of my icons helps me to concentrate, pray, and yeah, as sad as it may be, to feel better. I only have a few, all gifts, three of the Theotokos and one of Christ, and I wanted to see the faces of my patrons as well. I'm sorry if my faith is just so weak that I look for a little extra help.

Whatever

My tone has been influenced by dealing with many people like yourself who think it is fine to just take from iconographers for "the greater good of their icon corner." If you have 4 small icons then consider that a gift from God and offer all of your heart and soul into prayer before those icons. This consumer society we live in thinks it should just have, have, have without realizing that everything we have is a gift from God. I, personally, would rather have 1 painted icon than a house full of mounted prints of icons.

Thank you, but I will keep my own counsel in this matter.

cobweb · Jul 12, 2011

Michael G said:
So what you are really telling us is you can not afford the $25.00 it would cost you for (2) 5x7 icons, one each of St. John of San Francisco and of St. Joseph the Betrothed? That is what those 2 plus shipping would cost you?

I know this, this is why every icon I put on line is watermarked and why I have warned everyone alive that if they steal an icon from me from off line I will prosecute them for theft of the full value of the icon ($400.00 each).

I know I couldn't when I first started out. I could afford a paper print of an icon and a $2 frame from Walmart. I have since bought a mounted print of that icon, but in the begining I couldn't afford anything.

Joseph Hazen · Jul 12, 2011

A simple "Better to go without", as I asked in the first post, would've conveyed the point and not made my already grief-filled day worse.

I joined TAW because it seemed like the one Orthodox Forum I found where people treated each other respectfully, but I was wrong.

Thank you to all those who offered comfort last week when my Grandma died, but I think I'll go. I don't need this. Goodbye.

Photini · Jul 12, 2011

cobweb said:
I know I couldn't when I first started out. I could afford a paper print of an icon and a $2 frame from Walmart. I have since bought a mounted print of that icon, but in the begining I couldn't afford anything.

It was the same for me. I can definitely relate to Joseph's situation.

Even so, I think that printing out a copy off the internet may be against copyright laws. I don't know for sure. I admit to printing out an online image when I first learned of Orthodoxy. I honestly didn't know any better.

And for what it's worth, when I first became Orthodox, I had no idea that a layperson could even obtain a hand-painted Icon. I was that ignorant and clueless. I thought they were just for the churches & monasteries.

I do sympathize with Joseph, but I also understand Michael's frustration. After all, he also has bills to pay.

RobNJ · Jul 12, 2011

Back to one of the aspects of the OP... I've never seen salt in an icon corner before. Except the stuff I had in the bottom of my old censer, instead of sand, to keep the charcoal from sitting directly on the metal.

Damaris · Jul 12, 2011

Joseph Hazen said:
I have two questions:

1) I was given three glass bottles recently, which I was going to use to store some things in my Icon Corner. One already has Theopany Water in it, the second is going to be used for some holy oil from the Sepulchre of St. John Maximovitch. As a Roman Catholic I had some blessed salt, and I was going to put this in the third bottle, but I mentioned it to a friend and he seemed surprised, never having heard of any such thing in Orthodoxy. Is Blessed Salt not something we use, worse is it something we shouldn't use? If so is there anything anyone might think to put in the third bottle? I could just have the two, no big deal.

2) Do you feel it is wrong, if one cannot afford to buy icons, to print out the images and use some frames you have? I'd love to have an icon of St. Joseph the Betrothed, my patron, and St. John Maximovitch, my Slava, but can't find 'ancient' icons of either (one for obvious reasons). I don't want to be using something that's not ok (printed paper icons) or rob honest Iconographers of their due (using their images). What if I knew these were temporary until I could get them replaced by mounted prints, or better yet real versions, and made sure to get them from the Iconographer who's image I'd been using? What do you think, better to just go without?

Thank you!

Wikimedia Commons has several that are free.

As for modern works, most iconographers wouldn't mind a non-commercial use, especially when it comes to someone who can't afford a print, so it can't hurt to ask. Their real concern is going to be commercial reproduction, and the images they put on the web are usually low-res and therefore unsuitable for anything beyond personal use anyway.

I've never heard of salt in an icon corner - or blessed salt in general - so I would ask your priest about that.

Kaonashi · Jul 12, 2011

I've had the same question before since I'm a college student with limited space. Luckily, I was given several icons as a gift during my visit to Holy Cross a while back that I will be using to set up my icon corner in my dorm room as well.

Michael G · Jul 12, 2011

There are much better ways to go about it, Joseph. Any number of people on here will tell you that I have sent mounted prints to people free of charge who I know are unable to afford them. However, you can never justify theft by the end results.

If you want a good example of how going without can teach you the beauty of having such things, I highly suggest "He Leadeth Me" by Walter Czisek, SJ. Czisek was a bi-ritual Byzantine priest who was imprisoned in a gulag in Russia for 20 years. Over those 20 years he had to learn to pray the Divine Liturgy laying flat on his back on a cot in the prison to keep the Soviets from killing him for breaking their laws. Talk about finding a new found appreciation for the beauty and ritual of the Divine Liturgy?! If you have a few small icons, be thankful for those. But please do not steal from us iconographers.

Michael G · Jul 12, 2011

Damaris said:
Wikimedia Commons has several that are free.

As for modern works, most iconographers wouldn't mind a non-commercial use, especially when it comes to someone who can't afford a print, so it can't hurt to ask. Their real concern is going to be commercial reproduction, and the images they put on the web are usually low-res and therefore unsuitable for anything beyond personal use anyway.

I've never heard of salt in an icon corner - or blessed salt in general - so I would ask your priest about that.

Most iconographers that I know do not want people making low grade images of the icons they put on line. My Nikon takes photographs that are 4 meg and yet the photos of icons that I put on line are 400k. A 400k photo of an icon is at internet resolution and not intended to be printed out and have a venerated icon made of it. I am not sure how many iconographers you know, but I happen to know quite a few, and some of the better ones in North America.

cobweb · Jul 12, 2011

... and we lose another inquirer.

Blackknight · Jul 12, 2011

A print from a jpeg file is hardly ideal but if that's all somebody can afford then what's the harm? I can understand going after somebody for selling printed mounts of your work or something like that but if it's just for personal use I'd just be glad that somebody is enjoying my work.

neon_knights · Jul 12, 2011

Yeah I'm sorry for saying this, and I know I shouldn't really be commenting, but Michael, you really could have treated him better. He is obviously going through a really tough time right now, and the last thing he needs is such a harsh response from a simple, heartfelt question.

Maybe I don't understand your side of it, but it just seemed that your response to him was way too harsh, and he seemed to be very hurt.

Sorry for being disrespectful in any way.

Michael G · Jul 12, 2011

neon_knights said:
Yeah I'm sorry for saying this, and I know I shouldn't really be commenting, but Michael, you really could have treated him better. He is obviously going through a really tough time right now, and the last thing he needs is such a harsh response from a simple, heartfelt question.

Maybe I don't understand your side of it, but it just seemed that your response to him was way too harsh, and he seemed to be very hurt.

Sorry for being disrespectful in any way.

Neon, you have not spent the past 15 years and a lot of money studying iconography the way I have. Nor have you spent the past 3 years teaching your student everything that you know about iconography. Nor have you studied countless professionally made prints of icons that are 10 years old only to see their colors and radiancy faded into almost nothing due to the low quality of the cheap work. Maybe if you saw things from my point of view you would understand why it is so very offensive to me that the OP suggest he steal a few icons off line until such time that he can afford to buy a cheaply made mounted print or 2. I did not know the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Steal" had a caveat to it that it was OK to steal in the name of Christ...

Dylan Michael · Jul 12, 2011

Look, I'm sorry, but there's a way to say things without driving people off.
There was no need to handle it like that.

Blackknight · Jul 12, 2011

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Any way, I hope the OP gets my message.

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