God exists outside of time?

ElijahW

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I have. I agree with you on many points, such as the many different working definitions of "God" seen on this board, from vaporous to comical.

From an ignostic perspective, a robust definition of "God" would be nice. Necessary, even.

Falsifiable would be better.

I will understand if you decline.
Justin's definition from his letter to Typhro is my preferred.

Justin: "That which always maintains the same nature, and in the same manner, and is the cause of all other things—that, indeed, is God."

I'm not sure how much of the discussion around God is falsifiable but the goal is to consider the most rational option and disregard what seems impossible.
 
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ElijahW

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I asked you do you believe this God of yours answers your prayers or the Christian God answers other Christians’ prayers in the present. From your answer above, I take it that you don’t believe the Christian God answers your prayers or any other Christian’s prayers. What other Christian beliefs don’t you hold? Do you believe the Christian God created all things? Do you believe the Christian God fathered a son? Do you believe miracles still happen today as they did in the past? Do you believe angels and demons are active in the world today? I’m guessing from your comments below that you don’t believe these things, but could you please confirm it one way or the other.
I have a rational understanding of Christianity and angels and demons. The virgin birth is about faith again and not about any understanding of God fathering a son. Jesus being the Son of God is a about Jesus personifying the Logos/Reason, not about him being half genie. Haven’t seen any miracles to believe in them today.

Your condescension is misplaced because it is directed at me, but what I gave you isn’t my understanding of God. As I just showed you, the understanding of God that you describe as being that of a seven-year-old is not my understanding, but the understanding of the vast majority of Christians in the U.S. today and many who contribute to these forums.
I don’t care about your excuse for dumbing down the conversation. The only argument that should be taking place is about a correct understanding of God. Not looking for kids to justify your strawman because they have the same understanding.

If you have no argument against a rational understanding of God then we have been wasting our time.
My understanding of the Christian God is that it is imaginary and that goes for the Muslim, Hindu, Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Aztec and all other gods as well. I understand gods to be imaginary entities that insecure and credulous people use for emotional comfort. Gods comes in many shapes and forms from the vague, distant impersonal force of the deists to the petty, vindictive and all-to-human personal gods of Christianity and Islam. However, the one thing they all have in common is that there isn’t a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that any one of them is real.
And how many of these understandings are rational and how many are just guys in the sky with differing management styles?
However, what the majority thinks about God is not irrelevant at all. What the majority thinks about God influences their decisions and affects their behaviour. They think their church should have a say in the government. They think homosexuality should be discouraged so they oppose gay rights. They reject the theory of evolution and some try to have creationism taught in public school science classes. In other countries, what people think about their God motivates them to attack and kill people for making drawings or anything else they consider blasphemous and for the purely religious crime of apostasy.
Completely irrelevant in a philosophical conversation to consider the beliefs of those not studied in the subject.

You are getting your politics and your religion mixed up. When you start look towards religious beliefs to fix political problems you might want to rethink that.
By the way, I don’t need to argue against your God or any other god. What you need to do is prove that it is real.
Not at all. We need to get you up to speed on the last two and half millennia of conversation around the concept of God so you realize how silly that question is.
I don’t think I’ve ever found someone “responding to the ideology presented in those Heisenberg quotes”. Explain how that would prove the Christian God is real.
It is in direct opposition about what you said about the Laws so hopefully you have some reason to believe that and aren’t just guessing. The laws existing show that there are parts of the universe at rest and the exploration of their nature can show you how a God can be present and active but not offer any proof materially.
 
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Lord Emsworth

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(reply) Please explain this space-time continuum that you speak of and explain exactly how the concpet of time can't be applied to the universe; as you said earlier

I am not going to explain physics to you. Look it up if you must, you are much better served with that.


But the second part here ... You cannot take a part of the universe (time) and apply it to the whole. It is similar with the earth. You cannot place the earth east, north or something like that. While those compass points (is that the right term?) do make sense when you are on the earth, you cannot apply them to the earth. Like so, the universe and time. Time might make sense in the universe (however exactly, with relativity and all) but you can't really apply time to the universe itself. The universe is - to borrow and adapt the apologetic phrase - "outside of time".
 
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Davian

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Justin's definition from his letter to Typhro is my preferred.

Justin: "That which always maintains the same nature, and in the same manner, and is the cause of all other things—that, indeed, is God."

I'm not sure how much of the discussion around God is falsifiable but the goal is to consider the most rational option and disregard what seems impossible.

That looks like a deistic god concept that has been labeled "God", then with an attempted slight-of-hand becomes the Christian "God".

For instance, if the instantiation of the cosmos required a first cause, perhaps it was just a mechanism that was limited to that one purpose. And it may not have survived that process. And you (or Justin) have called it "God".

I have a rational understanding of Christianity and angels and demons. The virgin birth is about faith again and not about any understanding of God fathering a son. Jesus being the Son of God is a about Jesus personifying the Logos/Reason, not about him being half genie. Haven’t seen any miracles to believe in them today.

I don’t care about your excuse for dumbing down the conversation. The only argument that should be taking place is about a correct understanding of God. Not looking for kids to justify your strawman because they have the same understanding.

If you have no argument against a rational understanding of God then we have been wasting our time.
And how many of these understandings are rational and how many are just guys in the sky with differing management styles?
Completely irrelevant in a philosophical conversation to consider the beliefs of those not studied in the subject.

You are getting your politics and your religion mixed up. When you start look towards religious beliefs to fix political problems you might want to rethink that.
Not at all. We need to get you up to speed on the last two and half millennia of conversation around the concept of God so you realize how silly that question is.
It is in direct opposition about what you said about the Laws so hopefully you have some reason to believe that and aren’t just guessing. The laws existing show that there are parts of the universe at rest and the exploration of their nature can show you how a God can be present and active but not offer any proof materially.

"a God"? I know it is pedantic, but should it not be "God" or "a god"?

Are we talking about a personal god or a deistic god?

And this god can be present and active and undetectable?

But won't a universe with an undetectable god will appear godless?
 
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ElijahW

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That looks like a deistic god concept that has been labeled "God", then with an attempted slight-of-hand becomes the Christian "God".
That is one of the earliest church father’s definitions that we have. Where do you get your understanding of the “Christian” God? I can assume what you are imagining but if you have an actual definition that describes what you consider the “Christian” God that would probably be more appropriate.
For instance, if the instantiation of the cosmos required a first cause, perhaps it was just a mechanism that was limited to that one purpose. And it may not have survived that process. And you (or Justin) have called it "God".
It depends on the model of the universe and its origin that you are working with. If you start with something material then it being temporal and temporary makes sense but if you see matter as a product of the laws and the laws aren’t temporal or temporary then there is reason to believe that their source isn’t as well.
"a God"? I know it is pedantic, but should it not be "God" or "a god"?
Maybe. We were discussing a variety of understandings of God not gods so still going to be a proper noun labeling the origin and not a blanket term describing the forces in the universe like with polytheism. But correct speaking and writing is weak point for me.
Are we talking about a personal god or a deistic god?
Panentheism
And this god can be present and active and undetectable?
But won't a universe with an undetectable god will appear godless?
Yes it will appear undetectable because all that appears to us is in flux. We are limited by our senses to only what changes, that is why we look to our intellect for what is constant.
 
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Davian

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That is one of the earliest church father’s definitions that we have. Where do you get your understanding of the “Christian” God? I can assume what you are imagining but if you have an actual definition that describes what you consider the “Christian” God that would probably be more appropriate.
My working definition the Christian "God" is "a character in a book". That's why I asked you.
It depends on the model of the universe and its origin that you are working with. If you start with something material then it being temporal and temporary makes sense but if you see matter as a product of the laws and the laws aren’t temporal or temporary then there is reason to believe that their source isn’t as well.
But we don't know if that source deserves the name "God". And the universe may have always existed.
Maybe. We were discussing a variety of understandings of God not gods so still going to be a proper noun labeling the origin and not a blanket term describing the forces in the universe like with polytheism. But correct speaking and writing is weak point for me.
It comes across as sloppy, like you are getting Christian god and the pantheistic "god" confused.
Panentheism
It did appear for a moment that you were defending the Christian god.
Yes it will appear undetectable because all that appears to us is in flux. We are limited by our senses to only what changes, that is why we look to our intellect for what is constant.
How do we delineate between undetectable and nonexistent? Other than 'nonexistent' would be the positive claim.

What do you think is constant about our intellect? Our sense of "self"?
 
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ElijahW

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My working definition the Christian "God" is "a character in a book". That's why I asked you.
Not your understanding of “God “in the Bible. What do you think the “Christian” understanding is since you think I have made a mistake with panentheism? Who are you getting your definition from?
But we don't know if that source deserves the name "God". And the universe may have always existed.
Deserves the name? Huh? What makes something deserve the name other than being the source of the universe?

If you want to argue for the universe always existing all you need to do is make an argument for how that is possible. It’s easy to say that it always existed but it’s another thing to explain how anything can be around for an infinite amount of years.

How do we delineate between undetectable and nonexistent? Other than 'nonexistent' would be the positive claim.
Reason
What do you think is constant about our intellect? Our sense of "self"?
The ideas/forms.
 
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3sigma

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I have a rational understanding of Christianity and angels and demons. The virgin birth is about faith again and not about any understanding of God fathering a son. Jesus being the Son of God is a about Jesus personifying the Logos/Reason, not about him being half genie. Haven’t seen any miracles to believe in them today.
A “rational understanding of Christianity and angels and demons” would lead one to conclude that the central claims of Christianity are untrue and that angels and demons are imaginary. Do you adhere to the Statement of Faith that this site uses to define Christianity?

The only argument that should be taking place is about a correct understanding of God.
…
If you have no argument against a rational understanding of God then we have been wasting our time.
I’m endeavouring to discover your understanding of “God”. Your comments seem to range through deism, pantheism, panentheism and Christianity. To avoid further confusion, please give us a factual description of your God. We are certainly wasting our time discussing your God if you cannot give us a factual description of it.

ElijahW said:
3sigma said:
My understanding of the Christian God is that it is imaginary and that goes for the Muslim, Hindu, Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Aztec and all other gods as well. I understand gods to be imaginary entities that insecure and credulous people use for emotional comfort. Gods comes in many shapes and forms from the vague, distant impersonal force of the deists to the petty, vindictive and all-to-human personal gods of Christianity and Islam. However, the one thing they all have in common is that there isn’t a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that any one of them is real.
And how many of these understandings are rational and how many are just guys in the sky with differing management styles?
Not one of them is rational, obviously. No understanding of gods is rational when there isn’t a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that any one of them is real. You keep using the word “rational”, but from the way you use it, it doesn’t appear that you know what it means.

You are getting your politics and your religion mixed up. When you start look towards religious beliefs to fix political problems you might want to rethink that.
Homophobia is not a political problem. Christians seeking to have creationism taught in public school science classes is not a political problem; it’s motivated by religious beliefs. Attacking and killing people for blasphemy and apostasy is not a political problem. It is also motivated entirely by religious beliefs.

ElijahW said:
3sigma said:
By the way, I don’t need to argue against your God or any other god. What you need to do is prove that it is real.
Not at all. We need to get you up to speed on the last two and half millennia of conversation around the concept of God so you realize how silly that question is.
Oh please. Imagine someone tells you fairies are real and that you need to provide arguments against them to prove they aren’t. You respond by saying that you don’t need to argue against fairies and that it is up to the person claiming they are real to prove their claims. That person responds by saying that you need to be brought up to speed on the millennia of conversation around the concept of fairies so you realise how silly that question is. What would you think of such a person? Would you say that person had a “rational understanding” of fairies? From your comments so far, perhaps you would say that…

There are now over two hundred posts in this thread and you have made fifty of them. Can you point to anywhere in those fifty posts that you have provided some sound evidence or made a sound argument proving true your claims that your God is outside time, constant and unchanging and caused the Big Bang? So far, all we’ve seen is baseless assertions followed by endless evasion. If you cannot establish the validity or truth of your claims then why should anyone believe a word you say?
 
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ElijahW

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A “rational understanding of Christianity and angels and demons” would lead one to conclude that the central claims of Christianity are untrue and that angels and demons are imaginary. Do you adhere to the Statement of Faith that this site uses to define Christianity?
A rational understanding of angels and demons, if you take artistic representation of them literally, would be that they don’t exist. A rational understanding of angels and demons ,if you interpret the texts rationally, are nothing but forces, ideals and memes.

I adhere.
I’m endeavouring to discover your understanding of “God”. Your comments seem to range through deism, pantheism, panentheism and Christianity. To avoid further confusion, please give us a factual description of your God. We are certainly wasting our time discussing your God if you cannot give us a factual description of it.
From post # 87 “That which always maintains the same nature, and in the same manner, and is the cause of all other things—that, indeed, is God”. Justin Martyr

From post # 202 “Justin's definition from his letter to Typhro is my preferred.

Justin: "That which always maintains the same nature, and in the same manner, and is the cause of all other things—that, indeed, is God."

Not one of them is rational, obviously. No understanding of gods is rational when there isn’t a single shred of sound evidence or a single sound argument to prove that any one of them is real. You keep using the word “rational”, but from the way you use it, it doesn’t appear that you know what it means.
Why would you assume that no one has ever popularized a rational understanding of the beginning of the universe? When do you think people first started philosophizing about the world reasonably?
Homophobia is not a political problem. Christians seeking to have creationism taught in public school science classes is not a political problem; it’s motivated by religious beliefs. Attacking and killing people for blasphemy and apostasy is not a political problem. It is also motivated entirely by religious beliefs.
Legislating gay marriage is a political issue. All the issues you think are coming from religion are coming from politicians trying to get votes. If you think that Bob and Jane in church are the ones deciding what issues we focus on then you have a much higher opinion of their influence and greater trust of the politicians to actually represent the will of the people.
Oh please. Imagine someone tells you fairies are real and that you need to provide arguments against them to prove they aren’t. You respond by saying that you don’t need to argue against fairies and that it is up to the person claiming they are real to prove their claims. That person responds by saying that you need to be brought up to speed on the millennia of conversation around the concept of fairies so you realise how silly that question is. What would you think of such a person? Would you say that person had a “rational understanding” of fairies? From your comments so far, perhaps you would say that…
It depends. Am I up to speed on the conversation around fairies or is all I know about them come from television? If I am uninformed then I would obviously try to inform myself because there is no point in asking for proof of a concept I am unfamiliar with.
There are now over two hundred posts in this thread and you have made fifty of them. Can you point to anywhere in those fifty posts that you have provided some sound evidence or made a sound argument proving true your claims that your God is outside time, constant and unchanging and caused the Big Bang? So far, all we’ve seen is baseless assertions followed by endless evasion. If you cannot establish the validity or truth of your claims then why should anyone believe a word you say?
From post #91 “Prove it? How would you prove a constant in the universe?”

From post #93 “It's not about believing, it's about understanding. Do you understand the problem of asking for proof for something that is constant in the universe?”
 
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3sigma

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That which always maintains the same nature, and in the same manner, and is the cause of all other things—that, indeed, is God.
You appear to have misunderstood my request. I asked for a factual description of your God, not a baseless, arbitrary claim. That claim has no more support than the claim that Santa Claus is the cause of all other things.

Describe this Christian God of yours. Tell us something factual about it. For example, what are its dimensions? Let’s start with something basic—what is its composition? Is it composed of matter or energy? Give us facts—something that is actually true.

If you can’t even give us a factual description of what it is you are talking about then there is no point in continuing the conversation. It would be as pointless as discussing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. In fact, come to think of it, it’s already that pointless. Actually, this discussion is probably more pointless because at least we know pins are real.

Why would you assume that no one has ever popularized a rational understanding of the beginning of the universe?
What a specious question. The only connection your God has with the beginning of the universe is your utterly baseless, arbitrary, unproven claim that it caused it.

Legislating gay marriage is a political issue.
But homophobia isn’t.

All the issues you think are coming from religion are coming from politicians trying to get votes.
You think Muslims in multiple different countries around the world rioting, attacking and killing people over cartoon drawings is due to some politicians trying to get votes? You think all the sectarian violence around the world today is just due to politicians trying to get votes? You need to read the news more often.

Am I up to speed on the conversation around fairies or is all I know about them come from television? If I am uninformed then I would obviously try to inform myself because there is no point in asking for proof of a concept I am unfamiliar with.
Are you for real? Fairies are imaginary. Any person claiming that fairies are real and telling you that you need to prove they aren’t, that he doesn’t need to prove they are and that you need to be brought up to speed on the millennia of conversation around the concept of fairies so that you realise how silly you are to question his claim, would be nothing more than a deluded fool and patronising to boot. Again, fairies are imaginary. There is no more sound evidence that fairies are real than there is that your God is real.

From post #91 “Prove it? How would you prove a constant in the universe?”

From post #93 “It's not about believing, it's about understanding. Do you understand the problem of asking for proof for something that is constant in the universe?”
I asked you to point to posts where you provided some sound evidence or made a sound argument that proves your claims are true and all you give me is these questions. I give up. This conversation is beyond pointless.
 
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ElijahW

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You appear to have misunderstood my request. I asked for a factual description of your God, not a baseless, arbitrary claim. That claim has no more support than the claim that Santa Claus is the cause of all other things.

Describe this Christian God of yours. Tell us something factual about it. For example, what are its dimensions? Let’s start with something basic—what is its composition? Is it composed of matter or energy? Give us facts—something that is actually true.

If you can’t even give us a factual description of what it is you are talking about then there is no point in continuing the conversation. It would be as pointless as discussing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. In fact, come to think of it, it’s already that pointless. Actually, this discussion is probably more pointless because at least we know pins are real
The nature of the beginning isn't like a ball of matter but like the initial Ideal.

As many angels as their are is the answer if you understand angels as non spacial.

What a specious question. The only connection your God has with the beginning of the universe is your utterly baseless, arbitrary, unproven claim that it caused it.
So you have no reason for assuming they should all be understood superstitions and have no ability to tell when someone is speaking rationally about God and when someone is repeating the superstitious. It's just an assumption you have been working with since childhood? Do you think maybe there is a possibility working with that assumption has been a mistake?

So when Einstein uses the word "God" you assume he means a genie in the sky because that's what the word always means?

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details." Albert E
But homophobia isn’t.
And that isn't a religious product either. Get some life experience and see for yourself.
You think Muslims in multiple different countries around the world rioting, attacking and killing people over cartoon drawings is due to some politicians trying to get votes? You think all the sectarian violence around the world today is just due to politicians trying to get votes? You need to read the news more often.
I think most of it is about gaining control over the masses and using the opposition to rally up the masses into their way of thinking/control, in this case the west, in the US case the liberals.
Are you for real? Fairies are imaginary. Any person claiming that fairies are real and telling you that you need to prove they aren’t, that he doesn’t need to prove they are and that you need to be brought up to speed on the millennia of conversation around the concept of fairies so that you realise how silly you are to question his claim, would be nothing more than a deluded fool and patronising to boot. Again, fairies are imaginary. There is no more sound evidence that fairies are real than there is that your God is real.
Fairy is a word. The only use I know of the word is from Television. If the person is trying to explain something with the word rationally then I am going to need to put away my understanding and start to read some and figure out how they are using the word.

How I understand the word "Fairy" doesn't exist but in the story the person is using the word rationally, not how I am familiar with it. What does this mean I should do? I think it would be to familiarize myself with the subject, not continue to say they don't exist based on my own uninformed opinion. This should be the obvious course of action, instead of continuing to ask for proof of a concept not in discussion.
I asked you to point to posts where you provided some sound evidence or made a sound argument that proves your claims are true and all you give me is these questions. I give up. This conversation is beyond pointless.
Keep thinking about how it would be possible to prove a constant in the universe and maybe something will come to you eventually. You are still too stuck in your superstitious understanding of God to properly contemplate the idea in discussion here.
 
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Davian

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Not your understanding of “God “in the Bible.
What's wrong with my definition? Every can agree that God is a character in a book - movies too - and it is falsifiable, should someone want to demonstrate that it is more that just a character in a book.
What do you think the “Christian” understanding is since you think I have made a mistake with panentheism? Who are you getting your definition from?
In my limited exposure to Christianity (most of it being on this board) I would not venture to summarize the "Christian" understanding of god beyond that it involves "Jesus" and "a bible". You have taken the panetheistic approach, just one of many approaches. Many.

Deserves the name? Huh? What makes something deserve the name other than being the source of the universe?

If you want to argue for the universe always existing all you need to do is make an argument for how that is possible. It’s easy to say that it always existed but it’s another thing to explain how anything can be around for an infinite amount of years.

If you want to argue for a god always existing all you need to do is make an argument for how that is possible. It’s easy to say that it always existed but it’s another thing to explain how anything can be around for an infinite amount of years.

Do you believe it is possible for nothing to exist? I don't mean 'empty space'. And if there is something, it is the universe.

Note that in my previous posts I delineate between "universe" and "cosmos".

If the mechanism that was resposible for the current instantiation of the cosmos had the intelligence of, say, a toaster oven, would you still call it God? All the natural forces that got us to where we are at this moment still follow your panethiestic approach, do they not? You would still have to show me how you fit this in.

Reason

The ideas/forms.
If you reason into existence a god that is undetectable, how do you know if you have been successful?
 
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ElijahW

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What's wrong with my definition? Every can agree that God is a character in a book - movies too - and it is falsifiable, should someone want to demonstrate that it is more that just a character in a book.
You aren’t addressing the understanding. You are only pointing out one way the concept has been presented. If you think that the definition of God comes from taking mythology literal then we can move from there but the definition still wouldn’t be a character in a book. If you are building your understanding from taking myth literally then it would be nice to see where you picked up that thinking or if you are just working with an assumption.
In my limited exposure to Christianity (most of it being on this board) I would not venture to summarize the "Christian" understanding of god beyond that it involves "Jesus" and "a bible". You have taken the panetheistic approach, just one of many approaches. Many.
To my knowledge I have presented the most clear and concise definition, from the earliest Christian thinkers to do so. You have no definition because you are basing your understanding on what people say about God on a message board. Do you think that is a rational approach to understanding Christianity or the concept of God?
Do you believe it is possible for nothing to exist? I don't mean 'empty space'. And if there is something, it is the universe.
Nope. Earlier in this thread the idea of “nothing” into something was argued for how God could change and I took some time trying to explain why that wasn’t the case because “nothing” doesn’t actually exist.
Note that in my previous posts I delineate between "universe" and "cosmos".
I missed that. What was the difference or a link please?
If the mechanism that was resposible for the current instantiation of the cosmos had the intelligence of, say, a toaster oven, would you still call it God? All the natural forces that got us to where we are at this moment still follow your panethiestic approach, do they not? You would still have to show me how you fit this in.
If I got rid of all the anthropomorphic understandings of God I would still consider what I am describing to be God and the proper label to use.

Just because it is common to understand God like a person doesn’t mean that is correct. If you think there is something in the creed that is specific to a superstitious understanding of God I will take a look.
If you reason into existence a god that is undetectable, how do you know if you have been successful?
The other options that I am aware of seem unreasonable, is why I believe what I believe.
 
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Davian

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You aren’t addressing the understanding. You are only pointing out one way the concept has been presented.
It has been presented in many ways. Comical, vaporous, contradictory, and the common "you have to believe in order to understand".

But they aren't saying God is undetectable. They put forth a forth all kinds of evidence, for a young earth, old earth, evolution, no evolution, theistic evolution, variable speeds of light, intelligent design, and the effectiveness (or not) of prayer. It's just not very good evidence...
If you think that the definition of God comes from taking mythology literal then we can move from there but the definition still wouldn’t be a character in a book. If you are building your understanding from taking myth literally then it would be nice to see where you picked up that thinking or if you are just working with an assumption.
I am trying to avoid assumptions. I think the single most reliable pathway to truth is to accept those things that are demonstrated through empirical evidence. So far, no one has demonstrated that God is more than a character in a book.
To my knowledge I have presented the most clear and concise definition, from the earliest Christian thinkers to do so.
Yes, but those definitions are post hoc rationalizations that start with a belief in God, and fail to first establish the possibility of the existence of gods. I have seen no reason to presume this possibility, or accept a definition that does so, until that possibility has been established.

God, as described, might be impossible. Can an omniscient god change its mind?
You have no definition because you are basing your understanding on what people say about God on a message board. Do you think that is a rational approach to understanding Christianity or the concept of God?
I do not think it is rational to presuppose the possibility for the existence of "God" or "god" or "gods" before I have had a chance to evaluate the evidence.

Would you presuppose the possibility of the existence of fairies, before you understood what they were?

Nope. Earlier in this thread the idea of “nothing” into something was argued for how God could change and I took some time trying to explain why that wasn’t the case because “nothing” doesn’t actually exist.
I missed that. What was the difference or a link please?
Depending on the context, the terms can be interchangeable, but for clarity, I consider the universe to be everything at any time (if 'time' can be applied as we think), and the cosmos to be everything that is now in our universe.
Age and size of the cosmos
If I got rid of all the anthropomorphic understandings of God I would still consider what I am describing to be God and the proper label to use.
But you won't get rid of them.
Just because it is common to understand God like a person doesn’t mean that is correct. If you think there is something in the creed that is specific to a superstitious understanding of God I will take a look.
You will need to show me that God is more than just superstition.
The other options that I am aware of seem unreasonable, is why I believe what I believe.
You are reasoning why you believe.


Try this: Define God from the perspective of someone that does not believe.

I have seen it done, in a comprehensive manner, and I accept it. I don't use it as my working definition as it is a bit bulky. I will let you have a shot at it before I post the link.
 
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ElijahW

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Try this: Define God from the perspective of someone that does not believe.

I have seen it done, in a comprehensive manner, and I accept it. I don't use it as my working definition as it is a bit bulky. I will let you have a shot at it before I post the link.
Let's take a look at that definition that you accept and see what it looks like and where it comes from. I have already provided one that I prefer.
 
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Davian

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Let's take a look at that definition that you accept and see what it looks like and where it comes from. I have already provided one that I prefer.

As I said, the one you prefer is faulty.

A few pages ago you said:

...
If you want to argue against God then it needs to be against the most informed and rational understanding.
...

And now you ignore the bulk of my post and ask to peek at my answer?
 
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ElijahW

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As I said, the one you prefer is faulty.

A few pages ago you said:

And now you ignore the bulk of my post and ask to peek at my answer?
Definition first please. I'll go back if needed. You aren't understanding me and are asking questions about fairies so maybe if I can see what understanding of "God" you are working with then I can communicate what I am trying to say better.
 
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Davian

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Definition first please. I'll go back if needed. You aren't understanding me and are asking questions about fairies so maybe if I can see what understanding of "God" you are working with then I can communicate what I am trying to say better.

Rationalizing backwards from your definition is what got you mired where you are now.

Just start with a clean slate, but the bible to the side, and describe God.

Then we test that description.
 
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Rationalizing backwards from your definition is what got you mired where you are now.

Just start with a clean slate, but the bible to the side, and describe God.

Then we test that description.
Ok sense you can't find a definition and for some reason you would like another definition here you go.

God: The cause of the universe.

Edit: I should rephrase. You refuse to provide a definition of God. I shouldn't assume it is because you couldn't find one that would help in your argument.
 
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Davian

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Rationalizing backwards from your definition is what got you mired where you are now.

Just start with a clean slate, but the bible to the side, and describe God.

Then we test that description.

Ok sense you can't find a definition and for some reason you would like another definition here you go.

God: The cause of the universe.

Edit: I should rephrase. You refuse to provide a definition of God. I shouldn't assume it is because you couldn't find one that would help in your argument.

Good grief, I provided my definition back in post 207.

God: A character in a book. Many books.

I am serious. If you have some other testable attributes that you can assign to God, now would be the time.

As for your response, you are repeating yourself.

God, as the cause of the universe?

Have we established that the universe had a beginning?

Have we established that the universe required a cause?

(this one is yours)
If you want to argue for a god always existing all you need to do is make an argument for how that is possible. It’s easy to say that it always existed but it’s another thing to explain how anything can be around for an infinite amount of years.

And God as "the cause of the universe" sounds kinda boring. I mean, what has it done for us lately?
 
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