- Jan 25, 2009
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To anyone interested...
The above picture is from a ministry known as "The Rebelution" in what's called the Modesty Survey ( )...and this is said in light of what occurred recently when there was an in-depth discussion on the subject of mixing men/women together in certain settings and considering the topic ofof modesty. I was thankful for the range of conversation topics we were able to delve into, from coverings/veils to burkas (as seen here and here).... to how much skin a person is allowed to show in a service.....and even the subject of what one's heart is like rather than what they may wear. As said before:
However, though I was glad for the discussion/points others brought, I must say that there were many points that I hadn't considered before until that conversation...and its something that I'm wrestling through. I'm curious as to what other Messianics here would consider to be "modest" and how each of you would walk that out. Is there a set standard to how it looks---in light of what Paul noted in I Timothy 2 and what the scriptures say about.
On a real level, I'm still processing what to do with the entire firestorm of what occurred recently with the subject of Barbies----nortorious for being seen as promoting immodest fashions in the eyes of many parents and training little girls to not think of modesty as a good thing-----as there was recently something where many got mad at seeing a Barbie made with a Burka/viel. For an interesting article on such, one can go here to "Burka Barbie: How Barbie and Middle Eastern Culture Collided" ( ). I have a little sister I'm to look out for...and though she loves dolls/make-up time with them, there have been thoughts in the back of my mind as to how far she should be allowed to dress...and what kinds of dresses she should be working with. With the Barbie Burka gig, it should be interesting talking to my little sister on Barbie's new development, as she loves the barbies from differing countries/nations and its interesting to see how some displays are automatically shut down...
The same that occurred with Burka Barbie has also occurred with Amish Barbie and many others where the thoughts of proper dress differ....
There are many solid ministries I've enjoyed studying/following over the years that've written much on the subject of modesty-one of them being the ministry of Boundless Webzine, as seen here- and here---and for others, here. And yet, I often feel as if each of them may have a bias as to what modesty is...and then telling others what's absolute when there never seemed to be an absolute to begin with.
Again, what would you define as "modest" within a fellowship and how would you handle it?
The above picture is from a ministry known as "The Rebelution" in what's called the Modesty Survey ( )...and this is said in light of what occurred recently when there was an in-depth discussion on the subject of mixing men/women together in certain settings and considering the topic ofof modesty. I was thankful for the range of conversation topics we were able to delve into, from coverings/veils to burkas (as seen here and here).... to how much skin a person is allowed to show in a service.....and even the subject of what one's heart is like rather than what they may wear. As said before:
Easy G (G²);57905356 said:As it concerns the subject of modesty, not suggesting anyone here has to do this at their own fellowships---but I know of others that feel that wearing burkas/coverings is an excellent means of promoting modesty in mixed settings. And though I used to be against it, I must say that I think its rather beautiful to see in action in many places. Eastern culture is very beautiful in that regards.....and some of that was discussed elsewhere, as seen here. Though many assume that wearing veils---be it partial or full (entire body coverings)---is something that shouldn't be done, I think there's something to it that many may miss. Saw one family this mornining when driving to a meeting and the women had a full body covering like what often occurs in Muslim families....and I respected the fact that it seemed they were being conscious in their actions behind it.
Some even do so for fashion..and in media, the way that many of the women with veils have been portrayed have been very beautiful. One of favorite movies of all time, called "Hildago", is on how an American Indian cowboy and his mustang are placed against the world's greatest Arabian horses and Bedouin riders, some of whom are determined to prevent a foreigner - and especially an "impure" horse - from finishing the race. In Arabia where the race occurs, one of the main characters who helps the cowboy out is the sheikh's daughter, Jazira. One thing thing refreshing about the portrayal of Arabs in this movie is Jazeera's strong rebellious character, as she stands up for what she believes is right and argues with her father when she has to..and yet she takes seriously her appearance/the way she carries herself around others. I was always floored seeing how she dressed and how stunning she was.
For more, a clip from the full movie one can see online:
Hidalgo (2004) Part 3 of 13
Of course, it is a hot-button issue---as many feel that the veils are oppressive....and for some good videos on such:
In the Jewish circles I've seen, head coverings are very beautiful to behold......and for many, the issue of wearing a veil is one of modesty and preventing others from not respecting the glory that a woman possesses. Also, any may not be aware of how the subject of headcoverings is not something limited to Islamic cultures, as it is something Paul also discussed in I Corinthians 11..specifically, 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 and 1 Corinthians 11:14-16 / 1 Corinthians 11 . The explicit purpose of the Christian woman's headcovering, as stated by Paul, is that it is a sign of man's authority over woman. ..and the explicit purpose of Islamic hijab is modesty. For a good review on the issue, one can go online/look up the following articles:
........Concerning veils for those who are believers, it is interesting to see others who feel that all all Hebrew women wore veils. In passages like Isaiah 47:1-3 where God pronounces judgment, He likens a wicked nation to a woman and speaks of removing the veil as an act of judgment and humiliation. Such language would make no sense unless the women in Isaiahs audience wore head coverings routinely. Genesis 24:64-66 /Genesis 24 seems to speak to this, concerning Rebekah and how Issac found here when it came to her veil that she wore....and Genesis 29 seems to be another passage that seems to speak on the issue when it comes to Veiling Customs. Jacobs failure to know the difference between Rachel and Leah on his wedding night (Gen. 29:21-30) has sometimes been ascribed either to his never having seen her face before or to a custom of veiling brides. Of course, the text shows that it was precisely for Rachels good looks that Jacob loved her (29:17). Nevertheless, it is possible that his failure to recognize Leah was the result of a veil, which she wore throughout the wedding night..
- The Veil in Christianity
- About Head Covering (Messianic Judaism)
- Your thoughts on headcoverings? UPDATED -The Anchoress
- Should Christian Women Wear Head Coverings Today? A Brief ...
- Christian magazine | Why Do Muslim Women's Dress Like That ...
- Between the Pages: The Veil of Submission, the Crown and The Women ...
- Should a Christian Woman Wear a HEADCOVERING? - NCCG.ORG (Messianic Evangelicals
Genesis 38:13-15 mentions veils as well, though that seems to be in the sense of how prostitutes dressed...
SONG also mentions veils in terms of a relationship developing and the woman being concealed from her lover until there is progression, from courtship to the wedding night:
And in Eastern culture, it seems veils is something that's very much a big deal.Song of Solomon 1:7
Tell me, you whom I love, where you graze your flock and where you rest your sheep at midday. Why should I be like a veiled woman beside the flocks of your friends?
Song of Solomon 1:6-8
Song of Solomon 4:1
He How beautiful you are, my darling! Oh, how beautiful! Your eyes behind your veil are doves. Your hair is like a flock of goats descending from the hills of Gilead.
Song of Solomon 4:3
Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon; your mouth is lovely. Your temples behind your veil are like the halves of a pomegranate.
Song of Solomon 6:7
Your temples behind your veil are like the halves of a pomegranate.
Of course.....there are others who are believers in Messiah and feel that wearing of veils/coverings is nott necessarily in regards to somethiong one has to wear in the sense of external clothing.
1 Timothy 2:9-10
9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godlinesswith good works.
1 Peter 3:1-6
3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3Do not let your adorning be externalthe braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.
9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godlinesswith good works.
1 Peter 3:1-6
3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3Do not let your adorning be externalthe braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.
The same that occurred with Burka Barbie has also occurred with Amish Barbie and many others where the thoughts of proper dress differ....
There are many solid ministries I've enjoyed studying/following over the years that've written much on the subject of modesty-one of them being the ministry of Boundless Webzine, as seen here- and here---and for others, here. And yet, I often feel as if each of them may have a bias as to what modesty is...and then telling others what's absolute when there never seemed to be an absolute to begin with.
Again, what would you define as "modest" within a fellowship and how would you handle it?
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