God exists outside of time?

Ken-1122 said:

I was asking was God able to move, think, or do anything before time existed? Was he akin to the video recording left on pause?

K

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I feel like I've answered that question.

God did not need to think from eternity because He already knew everything there was to be known. I have heard the state of eternalness that God existed in prior to the universe as compared to a man sitting in a chair from eternity. The man does not stand up from his chair but remains sitting until he decides otherwise.

Ken-1122 said:

Okay let me see if I've got this straight:
God existed before time, but he didnh't do anything; sorta like a person on a video left on pause. then when he did decide to do something and create, at that moment time began and all the things he did the concept of time can be applied to those moments. Is that correct?

Ken

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I would say that fairly describes my view, but there is technically no "before" time. you see what I'm saying? As that would imply a moment in time. I prefer to say God existed causally prior or without the universe and so time, even though one may not really see the difference.

Maybe that's like where God goes on vacation to get away from all the crazy people... lol. Just kidding of cause, God loves all the crazy people too

If someone hasn't already mentioned.

God is constant is what makes God outside time. Time is a measurement of change and if you don't change, you are outside or unaffected by time.

"It is necessary therefore, that every created thing should at times be changed. For this is a property of every created thing, just as it is an attribute of God to be unchangeable." Philo

ElijahW said:

If someone hasn't already mentioned.

God is constant is what makes God outside time. Time is a measurement of change and if you don't change, you are outside or unaffected by time.

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Maybe you could explain what "creating" means in the context? How can an entity that creates (or acts, in general) possibly be unchanging and outside time?

I’m not sure exactly what you are asking. The act of creation is ongoing and constant. The first act/thought/movement (depending on your worldview) at the beginning is still ongoing and is the basis of our existence. I could explain it a bit better if I knew your world view. Materialist or Idealist?



“That which always maintains the same nature, and in the same manner, and is the cause of all other things—that, indeed, is God”. Justin Martyr

ElijahW said:

I’m not sure exactly what you are asking.

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Creating (if applying the common definitions) is an act. An act changes the acting entity - at least in that it changes it from an entity that is about to act to an entity that has acted.
If an entity is said to act/create in the absence of time and remain unchanged I don´t know what "acting/creating" might possibly mean.

quatona said:

Creating (if applying the common definitions) is an act. An act changes the acting entity - at least in that it changes it from an entity that is about to act to an entity that has acted.

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A temporary action you could say would change the entity but if the action is constant, then what change is expected in the entity?

If an entity is said to act/create in the absence of time and remain unchanged I don´t know what "acting/creating" might possibly mean.

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It's not in the absence of time. Time isn't anything real for it to be absent or present. They aren't working from an Einstein perspective of time being like a dimension in space, if that is how you are trying to visualize it. God is constant and unchanging, unlike the world which was seen as constantly changing, this is why God is considered outside time, because it isn't in the same flux of change.

ElijahW said:

God is constant and unchanging…

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Prove it, but before you do that, you first need to prove that your God is even real.

3sigma said:

Prove it, but before you do that, you first need to prove that your God is even real.

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Prove it? How would you prove a constant in the universe?

ElijahW said:

Prove it? How would you prove a constant in the universe?

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You are the one who made the claim so that’s your problem. Again, prove it. If you cannot establish the validity or truth of your claims then why should anyone believe you?

3sigma said:

You are the one who made the claim so that’s your problem. Again, prove it. If you cannot establish the validity or truth of your claims then why should anyone believe you?

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It's not about believing, it's about understanding. Do you understand the problem of asking for proof for something that is constant in the universe?

ElijahW said:

Do you understand the problem of asking for proof for something that is constant in the universe?

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No, I see no problem in asking people to prove their claims are true. Can you prove that the Christian God is constant and unchanging or not? If you are going to tell us it’s impossible to prove then obviously your claim has no support. If that is the case then why did you make that unsupported claim?

3sigma said:

No, I see no problem in asking people to prove their claims are true. Can you prove that the Christian God is constant and unchanging or not? If you are going to tell us it’s impossible to prove then obviously your claim has no support. If that is the case then why did you make that unsupported claim?

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I can't prove there is a God of any understanding.

But the reason asking for proof of a God that is constant is silly talk, is that we can only perceive what is flux due to the limitations of our senses. If there was a constant in the universe, we would have no way to perceive it in order to prove it. Empirical evidence only extends to what changes.

ElijahW said:

I can't prove there is a God of any understanding.

But the reason asking for proof of a God that is constant is silly talk, is that we can only perceive what is flux due to the limitations of our senses. If there was a constant in the universe, we would have no way to perceive it in order to prove it. Empirical evidence only extends to what changes.

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So you cannot prove that the Christian God is constant and unchanging or even that it is real.

Again, why did you make the unsupported claim that the Christian God is constant and unchanging and why should anyone believe your claims?

3sigma said:

So you cannot prove that the Christian God is constant and unchanging or even that it is real.

Again, why did you make the unsupported claim that the Christian God is constant and unchanging and why should anyone believe your claims?

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Nope. I can't prove constants. Do you understand why?

The reason I made the claim was to explain the outside of time concept the OP was asking about. Not to try to prove something I know can't be proven.

ElijahW said:

Nope. I can't prove constants. Do you understand why?

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In this case, you cannot prove the Christian God is constant and unchanging because you cannot even prove it is real.

The reason I made the claim was to explain the outside of time concept the OP was asking about. Not to try to prove something I know can't be proven.

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What use is an explanation based on a claim that can’t be proven? If someone told you that the reason ghosts are transparent is because they are vibrating at tremendous speeds, would you think that explanation was reasonable or useful? Would you believe that person’s claims?

Ken-1122 said:

ElijahW
I’m not sure what you mean when you say “don’t change” do you mean to not move, think, or function in any way? Akin to a video recorder left on pause? Or do you mean to have the same character, essence, perspective etc. today as you had yesterday.
If the former, then how did God create? If the latter, than how do you conclude that time only applies to those that change? Your claim makes no sense to me; please explain.

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Like an image on a paused video recorder would be the closer example. There is nowhere for God to move to, we move within God. There is no other function for God to do other than the function God did from the start.

A crude philosophy run down since this isn’t making any sense to you. Around 500 bc Heraclitus popularizes the idea that “Everything changes and nothing remains still.” It was popular because it coincided with what we experienced in the world where everything seems to be in flux.

This thinking is countered with Parmenides and popularized and discussed at great length by Plato. The argument is made that it isn’t that everything is in flux, just everything we can perceive by our senses. And what we can see changing, according to Plato, is just a reflection of the true eternal elements that we can’t perceive but we can conceive through our intellect or reasoningTo the platonic philosophers of the time and those influenced by them, the Ideas we perceived in our intellect were real and proof of an eternal side to the universe. This thinking can be seen in the NT at 2 Cor 4:18 “As we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.”

Now the eternal side here isn’t just speaking of God exclusively. God is constant but is also the basis of the ideas we are interacting with by our intellect. This means that he is not only imperceptible but also inconceivable. God being unknowable is a bit harder to grasp than God being constant and I’m not sure if I can do that yet.