Sabbath question from seeker

Byfaithalone1 · Jun 17, 2011

k4c said:
Why do you always focus on the death part of the Law

In terms of the letters engraved on stones, that seems to be the whole part.

when it also says the Law that was to bring life?

As I understand it, the ministry of the Spirit brings life and the letters engraved on stones bring death.

If you are, born of a woman, then you too were born under the Law.

Not so. The Seed has come. The chapter that you've cited (i.e. Galatians 3-4) seems to confirm that.

BFA

k4c · Jun 17, 2011

Byfaithalone1 said:
In terms of the letters engraved on stones, that seems to be the whole part.

As I understand it, the ministry of the Spirit brings life and the letters engraved on stones bring death.

Not so. The Seed has come. The chapter that you've cited (i.e. Galatians 3-4) seems to confirm that.

BFA

Romans 7:7-13 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.'' But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

The Law was to bring life but instead it brought death. Why? Was it the Law or was it the sin? Is the Law sin? Is the Law now not good, just and holy? Shall we do away with that which is good, just and holy? If so, what will be left? Maybe sin....

If the Law was to bring life but instead it brought death because of sin what happens when the sin is taken away? Do you think there is a slim chance that you might delight in the Law?

Byfaithalone1 · Jun 17, 2011

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
It is true that we will need to stand before God without a mediator in a time to come

What a sad, unbiblical teaching.

BUT I hope that what is clear is that while there is no longer mediation taking place after that time, for then salvation is then no longer being offered

Another sad, unbiblical teaching.

we will still be filled with the Holy Spirit

Sadly, this concession does not make the teaching any more Biblical. Jesus Himself promised that He always lives to intercede for us. Your teaching leaves us with the impression that Jesus lied. We can't have it both ways. Either Christ always lives to intercede for us or He doesn't.

Please re-read the Parables and evidence given -

OK. I did so, just in case I missed something. I'm still not finding any evidence that Jesus will cease to intercede for us.

"... He “shall sit and rule upon His throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne.” Not now “upon the throne of His glory;” the kingdom of glory has not yet been ushered in. Not until His work as a mediator shall be ended will God “give unto Him the throne of His father David,” a kingdom of which “there shall be no end.” Luke 1:32, 33.

Please share with us which translation you're using. None of the reputable translations include the phrase "not until His work as a mediator shall be ended." You seem to have added that phrase. As an example, here the NASB:

"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

Hebrews 9:28

Hebrews 9:28 does not include a teaching that Christ will cease to intercede for us. The Bible does not contradict itself.

[The Great Controversy; Page 416]

With all due respect, I've not concluded that this book is a continuing and authoritative source of truth. I understand and accept that you have.

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Jun 17, 2011

k4c said:
Romans 7:7-13 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.'' But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

Great texts! They confirm that the letters engraved on stones (i.e. the letters that include "thou shalt not covet") bring death. Now, let's consider the previous 6 verses which seem to shatter the notion that the law is everlasting and eternal:

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The Law was to bring life but instead it brought death. Why?

Certainly not because of the law. The law is not sin; it is good, just and holy. The law brought death because the people did not keep it. All sinned. Nonetheless, the letters engraved on stones brought death due to the opportunity they afforded. It is for this reason that the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones. It is for this reason that I advocate for the Spirit, not law.

Do you think there is a slim chance that you might delight in the Law?

I would much prefer to delight in that which is more glorious.

BFA

k4c · Jun 17, 2011

Byfaithalone1;Great texts! They confirm that the letters engraved on stones (i.e. the letters that include "thou shalt not covet") bring death. Now, let's consider the previous 6 verses which seem to shatter the notion that the law is everlasting and eternal:

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Amen... The reason why I say, Amen, is because the law states a person must be stoned for breaking it but I don't say, Amen, to the fact that we can now willfully and without conviction break the law.

The whole Law is repeated and confirmed all throughout the New Testament, not done away with.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.''

The New Covenant teaches us a principle that God is the only one to be worshiped.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make yourselves any idols neither shall you worship them.

The New Covenant teaches us to keep ourselves from idols.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

The New Covenant teaches us that God's Name is holy.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

The New Covenant says Jesus is Lord of THE Sabbath. The word (THE) is referring to a specific amount of holy time identified in the fourth commandment as the Sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The New Covenant teaches us that doing good during that specific holy time called, the Sabbath, is not a violation of it.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.''

The New Covenant tells us to honor our mother and father and in doing so we have a promise. That promise was established in the fifth commandment.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

The New Covenant tells us not to be a murder confirming the sixth commandment.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery".

The New Covenant tells us not to commit adultery.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal".

The New Covenant tells us not to steal.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The New Covenant tells us not to lie.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet".

The New Covenant tells us not to covet.

Certainly not because of the law. The law is not sin; it is good, just and holy. The law brought death because the people did not keep it. All sinned. Nonetheless, the letters engraved on stones brought death due to the opportunity they afforded. It is for this reason that the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones. It is for this reason that I advocate for the Spirit, not law.

The ministry of the Spirit is the New Covenant in which God will write His Law on your heart and empower us by His Spirit to keep them, not do away with them.

Ezekiel 36:26-28 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Remember...the whole Law is repeated and confirmed in the New Testament.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.''

The New Covenant teaches us a principle that God is the only one to be worshiped.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make yourselves any idols neither shall you worship them.

The New Covenant teaches us to keep ourselves from idols.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

The New Covenant teaches us that God's Name is holy.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

The New Covenant says Jesus is Lord of THE Sabbath. The word (THE) is referring to a specific amount of holy time identified in the fourth commandment as the Sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The New Covenant teaches us that doing good during that specific holy time called, the Sabbath, is not a violation of it.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.''

The New Covenant tells us to honor our mother and father and in doing so we have a promise. That promise was established in the fifth commandment.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

The New Covenant tells us not to be a murder confirming the sixth commandment.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery".

The New Covenant tells us not to commit adultery.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal".

The New Covenant tells us not to steal.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The New Covenant tells us not to lie.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet".

The New Covenant tells us not to covet.

I would much prefer to delight in that which is more glorious.

You had better tell Paul then because he delightd in the Law of God.

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 17, 2011

The Law is a double edged sword...

Disobedience brings death through sin while obedience brings life as sin is cut away.

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 17, 2011

Byfaithalone1 said:
What a sad, unbiblical teaching.

Another sad, unbiblical teaching.

Sadly, this concession does not make the teaching any more Biblical. Jesus Himself promised that He always lives to intercede for us. Your teaching leaves us with the impression that Jesus lied. We can't have it both ways. Either Christ always lives to intercede for us or He doesn't.

OK. I did so, just in case I missed something. I'm still not finding any evidence that Jesus will cease to intercede for us.

Please share with us which translation you're using. None of the reputable translations include the phrase "not until His work as a mediator shall be ended." You seem to have added that phrase. As an example, here the NASB:

"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.

Hebrews 9:28 does not include a teaching that Christ will cease to intercede for us. The Bible does not contradict itself.

With all due respect, I've not concluded that this book is a continuing and authoritative source of truth. I understand and accept that you have.

BFA

Why do you continue to argue established SDA doctrine?

You have chosen to 'unaccept' it and that is you prerogative but this forum isn't a platform for disseminating your understandings on our faith.

k4c · Jun 17, 2011

ricker said:
Apparently the only words you really read in the passage are " added because of transgressions". Doesn't that really mean that there was sin before the law given at Sinai,(which including the ten)? Eating of the forbidden tree in Eden is not stated in the law given to Israel.

You say God's law was understood since Adam. Does that make sense when the verses say the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came? It certainly doesn't say God reminded people 430 years later of the everlasting law already given to the whole world.

The Ten Commandments teach what godly love and righteousness should look like at it's basic level. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God's Law.

We know that eating from the forbidden tree in Eden is not in God's Law in the same way writting fraudulent checks is not in God's Law. But does that mean these acts don't violate God's Law? In the garden, Eve was coveting something that she couldn't have and gave into that desire. She also stole something that didn't belong to her. She also put herself as God. She also lied because God never said not to touch the tree. She also dishonored her Father. You could even say she killed when she gave it to Adam. I'm sure the list can go on but I think you get the point.

Byfaithalone1 · Jun 17, 2011

The whole Law is repeated and confirmed all throughout the New Testament, not done away with.

If this repetition means that we are compelled to observe the whole law, then are we also compelled to offer animal sacrifices and keep all sabbaths . . . since all of these things are mentioned in the New Testament?

2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Often, it's fascinating not only to read the passages that folks cite, but also the ones they don't. Case in point:

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. 12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

In the ongoing spirit of this thread, let's learn more by reading more of the context. Here's the preceding 9 verses:

Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN. 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

As fascinating as this is, it seems that text swapping may not be the best use of our time.

BFA

k4c · Jun 17, 2011

Byfaithalone1 said:
If this repetition means that we are compelled to observe the whole law, then are we also compelled to offer animal sacrifices and keep all sabbaths . . . since all of these things are mentioned in the New Testament?
Often, it's fascinating not only to read the passages that folks cite, but also the ones they don't. Case in point:

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. 12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

In the ongoing spirit of this thread, let's learn more by reading more of the context. Here's the preceding 9 verses:

Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

As fascinating as this is, it seems that text swapping may not be the best use of our time.

BFA

You can't throw out half the Bible in order to fit your personal belief system.

The old covenant had to do with the Law on stone and obedience was through fear of punishment, it was all outward. This is not so with the new covenant because fear of punishment has been cast out and the Law is written on the heart. The Spirit is poured out into our hearts and we can now personally testify that He loves us.

1 John 4:18 We need have no fear of someone who loves us perfectly; his perfect love for us eliminates all dread of what he might do to us. If we are afraid, it is for fear of what he might do to us, and shows that we are not fully convinced that he really loves us.

In the new covenant the Law is not written on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts and obedience is from the heart because of this love.

Ephesians 6:6 be obedient not in the way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers; but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

If you did more studying and less rejecting God might be able to bring you to see this truth some day...

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 17, 2011

Byfaithalone1 said:
What a sad, unbiblical teaching.

Another sad, unbiblical teaching.

Sadly, this concession does not make the teaching any more Biblical. Jesus Himself promised that He always lives to intercede for us. Your teaching leaves us with the impression that Jesus lied. We can't have it both ways. Either Christ always lives to intercede for us or He doesn't.

OK. I did so, just in case I missed something. I'm still not finding any evidence that Jesus will cease to intercede for us.

Please share with us which translation you're using. None of the reputable translations include the phrase "not until His work as a mediator shall be ended." You seem to have added that phrase. As an example, here the NASB:
"He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

Hebrews 9:28 does not include a teaching that Christ will cease to intercede for us. The Bible does not contradict itself.

With all due respect, I've not concluded that this book is a continuing and authoritative source of truth. I understand and accept that you have.

BFA

JESUS CHRIST asks us to “search the scriptures” (John 5:39;p) and Scripture says to prove all things:

Quench not the Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19

Despise not prophesyings. 1 Thessalonians 5:20

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 1 Corinthians 14:32

So, since “the scriptures cannot be broken” (John 10:35;p), is given by “inspiration of GOD” (2 Timothy 3:16;p), and we are be like the noble Bereans, “more noble than those in Thessalonica” (Acts 17:11;p) and are to go “line upon line, line upon line” (Isaiah 28:10;p), “rightly dividing the WORD of TRUTH” (2 Timothy 2:15;p) and “no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20;p), being guided by the HOLY SPIRIT, for as GOD says, “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD...” (Isaiah 1:18;p).

Scripture further says:

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6

...also of the Ten Commandments...

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:2

...and in Revelation again [which covers the "Everlasting Gospel" from Creation to Re-Creation, Beginning to End]...

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Revelation 22:18

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

Are not the Scriptures a "Light unto our path" (Psalms 119:105;p)?

I am [and have been continually] quoting from the King James Version.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25 [KJV]

Of course Jesus' Kingdom will have no end, and in that Kingdom, there is no sin and/or sinners, so no need for intercession, His people are finally Atonement with Him forever.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Revelation 21:4

There is to be no more death, and since the "wages for sin [is] death" we can know at that point that there is no more sin/sinners. The people of God are restored to the Tree of Life, no longer a need for intercession:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. Revelation 21:3

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Revelation 22:3

Of course Jesus, "ever liveth", for he hath died once for all, was resurrected, never to die again.

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Romans 6:10

Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. Hebrews 7:27

But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: Hebrews 9:7

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. Hebrews 9:12

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. Hebrews 10:10

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

Do you see the pattern of "once"? The part of the "intercession" is only so long as is necessary in the providence and wisdom of God. There is a time when there will be no more intercession. His work in the Heavenly Sanctuary will be completed, once and for all and even forever. The reality of Christ Jesus intercession is not to be eternally ongoing, for it must end, even as the type ended [though it was continually repeated, pointing to the one time event of Christ and His own], otherwise sin and sinners would be eternal, needing eternal intercession. Christ is cleansing His people from sin itself [Matthew 1:21]. There is even coming, a point in time, where there is to no longer be sin or sinners and therefore no longer need for "intercession", for the saved will have been utterly saved ["saved to the uttermost", and since they are such, why need for intercession for them?] and the lost will be utterly lost.

The passage of Hebrews 7:25 does not say that Jesus is to ever make intercession for us, it says plainly that he "ever liveth" to make intercession for us and so long as that intercession is offered it is available to us, yet there is a point when He will cease, and come to claim His own.

By the understanding which you are promoting, you would have the passage to say something else entirely, something it does not say,

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever makes intercession for them"

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25

Read both carefully. Do you see the difference?

A time coming, in which many will not know it is too late to seek His face, the door of salvation will be then closed.

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:25

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

Notice this text:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Hebrews 9:28

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. Hebrews 10:2

That can only happen once the Heavenly Sanctuary is cleansed and the intercession has ceased and the reality of the Day of Atonement will come to a close and thus the next feast can begin.

This subject is very important to understand. Look at the type, then look at the Reality.

ricker · Jun 17, 2011

k4c said:
The Ten Commandments teach what godly love and righteousness looks like at it's basic level. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God's Law.

We know that eating from the forbidden tree in Eden is not in God's Law in the same way writting bad checks is not in God's Law. But does that mean these acts don't violate God's Law? In the garden, Eve was coveting something that she couldn't have and gave into that desire. She also stole something that didn't belong to her. She also put herself as God. She also lied because God never said not to touch the tree. She also dishonored her Father. You could even say she killed when she gave it to Adam. I'm sure the list can go on but I think you get the point.

I know that is what you think, but what does the Bible passage we have quoted say? It says the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came. The specific Law given to Israel has a start and stop date.

(The Bible does say there was sin before the law came, and those not having the law can, and do, sin.)

The arguements about the law are pretty much useless when speaking about the Sabbath anyway, as it's observance was as sign given only to the nation of Israel and it is inherently a ceremonial law anyway.

ricker · Jun 17, 2011

ricker said:
Apparently the only words you really read in the passage are " added because of transgressions". Doesn't that really mean that there was sin before the law given at Sinai,(which including the ten)? Eating of the forbidden tree in Eden is not stated in the law given to Israel.

You say God's law was understood since Adam. Does that make sense when the verses say the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came? It certainly doesn't say God reminded people 430 years later of the everlasting law already given to the whole world.

Bump for ECR. Someone else who will remain nameless likes to jump in on conversations. I value and would like to understand your viewpoint.

k4c · Jun 17, 2011

ricker said:
I know that is what you think, but what does the Bible passage we have quoted say? It says the law was added 430 years after Abraham until the Seed came. The specific Law given to Israel has a start and stop date.

Okay, you win, let's use only the New Testament to set the standard.

Let's have no other gods before God.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Let's not make ourselves any idols nor worship them.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Let's not take the name of the Lord God in vain.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Let's honor the day that Jesus states He is Lord of.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

Let's not put more value on Jesus' day than we do on necessary needs.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Let's honor our father and mother.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Let's not commit murder.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Let's not commit adultery.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Let's not steal.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Let's not bear false witness.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Let's not covet.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Wow! I think we can now agree...praise the Lord.

ricker · Jun 18, 2011

k4c said:
Okay, you win, let's use only the New Testament to set the standard.

Let's have no other gods before God.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Let's not make ourselves any idols nor worship them.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Let's not take the name of the Lord God in vain.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Let's honor the day that Jesus states He is Lord of.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

Let's not put more value on Jesus' day than we do on necessary needs.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Let's honor our father and mother.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Let's not commit murder.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Let's not commit adultery.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Let's not steal.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Let's not bear false witness.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Let's not covet.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Wow! I think we can now agree...praise the Lord.

Are we to ignore what Galations says? Just because the 600+ laws given to Israel contain some good moral values does not mean the covenant is somehow transferred to Christians. Believe the Bible!

Do you go get checked out by a priest if you get a skin sore? Are your grain offerings always made without yeast? Do you rest from all you labors on the seventh day? Is your fellowship offering animal without defect?

k4c · Jun 18, 2011

ricker said:
Are we to ignore what Galations says? Just because the 600+ laws given to Israel contain some good moral values does not mean the covenant is somehow transferred to Christians. Believe the Bible!

Do you go get checked out by a priest if you get a skin sore? Are your grain offerings always made without yeast? Do you rest from all you labors on the seventh day? Is your fellowship offering animal without defect?

You will have to learn how to interpret Galatians in light of the rest of the New Testament or just throw out the rest of the New Testament. That seems to be the way most people do it.

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 19, 2011

ricker said:
Are we to ignore what Galations says? Just because the 600+ laws given to Israel contain some good moral values does not mean the covenant is somehow transferred to Christians. Believe the Bible!

Do you go get checked out by a priest if you get a skin sore? Are your grain offerings always made without yeast? Do you rest from all you labors on the seventh day? Is your fellowship offering animal without defect?

Just curious why you chose to include the 4th Commandment Law with the ceremonial laws... I didn't see any other of the the ten... why not? Do you consider the law given by Moses the same as the Law written in stone by God?

Byfaithalone1 · Jun 20, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Just curious why you chose to include the 4th Commandment Law with the ceremonial laws.

I would imagine he did so because there is truly no distinction between old covenant laws. The old covenant included 600+ laws, not 10.

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Jun 20, 2011

Revelation 14:6-12 said:
The part of the "intercession" is only so long as is necessary in the providence and wisdom of God. There is a time when there will be no more intercession.

We seem to be left with a choice. We can believe Christ's promise that He always lives to intercede for us and that He will never leave us or forsake us, or we can accept your teachings.

His work in the Heavenly Sanctuary will be completed, once and for all and even forever.

For that matter, His work of atonement was completed once for all on the cross. It is not a future event; it is an already completed event.

The reality of Christ Jesus intercession is not to be eternally ongoing, for it must end, even as the type ended [though it was continually repeated, pointing to the one time event of Christ and His own], otherwise sin and sinners would be eternal, needing eternal intercession.

Through the blood of the Lamb the need may dry up, but the opportunity for intercession will not. Jesus Christ always lives to intercede for us. We will not stand before God without an intercessor prior to Christ's second coming.

There is even coming, a point in time, where there is to no longer be sin or sinners

The corruptible puts on incorruption at the trump of God, not before.

The passage of Hebrews 7:25 does not say that Jesus is to ever make intercession for us, it says plainly that he "ever liveth" to make intercession for us.

If this is true, then we should be able to agree that we will never have the need to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator, for Jesus ever liveth to make intercession for us.

This subject is very important to understand.

I agree. For many, this doctrine has been used to inflict fear in those who have questions. God is not a God of fear.

BFA

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 20, 2011

Byfaithalone1 said:
I would imagine he did so because there is truly no distinction between old covenant laws. The old covenant included 600+ laws, not 10.

BFA

By no distinction you must mean that the decalogue was written on stone by God's own finger while the other laws were written on parchment. Maybe God's finger got tired of writing and passed the rest of the job off to Moses to finish...

By no distinction, you must mean that the decalogue was kept inside the ark while the cermonial laws were outside. Maybe God made a mistake in the dimensions of the Ark and didn't realize that not all the laws would fit inside. Maybe He realized that stone was too bulky for storage and switched to paper...

Maybe you should lookup the meaning of the word 'distinction'.

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