Yes, yes, another sex before marriage thread *(but please read)
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zairsmith
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I am sorry I misread the text and mixed up Joseph and Jacob...the Scripture I misquoted was Gen 29:23-25...I will admit I was wrong on this...it appears after reading this that God was ok with Jacob having more than one wife but I don't know for sure. For now, I will stick to my one lady and abide by the law of the land...
I am honestly stumped by this maybe it is true that multiple wives are permitted but how many is one too many?
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chingchang
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#1: It is Deuteronomy 17:17.
#2: He was talking about the Kings of Israel
#3: He said MANY wives not more than one. What is MANY? Is two MANY? No. So...one could be a polygamist and not have many wives.
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chingchang
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Where did God ordain playing Wii? It doesn't matter. Was the practice prohibited? Clearly there were polygamists in the OT. Why did God give them the Law? So they wouldn't be ignorant of their sin. If polygamy were a sin then God would have prohibited it in his law. He prohibited having sex with animals for crying out loud! Which do you think was more common?
No confusion here. I think you're confused on the purposed of God's Law.
God clearly lists murder as a sin. In addition, it is a clear violation of "love your neighbor". Not the case with polygamy.
This is the reply of someone who can't admit they are wrong.
A wife was the possession of the husband in the OT...he paid for her. OT adultery is a special type of theft.
Polygamists aren't sinning. God blessed David up until the day he sinned. His sin wasn't polygamy or having concubines. His sin was CLEARLY adultery with Bathsheba...
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chingchang
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I didn't recall that and did a search at Biblegateway.com and did not find it. Could you post it for us?
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The fact that there is 25+ page thread about whether premarital sex is wrong on a Christian Theology forum tells a tale about the time we live in.
We can disect the term "sexual immorality" all we want, but whatever "sexual immorality" is, is no question a sin. So what is sexual immorality? If sexual immorality is not premarital sex, than what is it exactly? Especially when adultery is grounds for divorce, paul's reference that people should get married if they cannot control themselves, and Jesus himself said that if you look at a woman with lust in your heart you have sinned, to assume that sexual immorality is anything other than premarital sex is almost laughable or lamentable im not sure which. It reminds me of Bill Clinton's famous quote "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is" Using semantics to try and wiggle one's way around an obviously addressed issue is never a good thing.
All this to say, disagree if you like, but answer my one question. If the term "sexual immorality" is not referring to premarital sex, what is it referring to exactly? If one can say it does not mean premarital sex, then the burden is on them to say what it does mean exactly, if a legitimate scripturally backed claim on what it could mean other than that is presented, I may contemplate the subject further.
We can disect the term "sexual immorality" all we want, but whatever "sexual immorality" is, is no question a sin. So what is sexual immorality? If sexual immorality is not premarital sex, than what is it exactly? Especially when adultery is grounds for divorce, paul's reference that people should get married if they cannot control themselves, and Jesus himself said that if you look at a woman with lust in your heart you have sinned, to assume that sexual immorality is anything other than premarital sex is almost laughable or lamentable im not sure which. It reminds me of Bill Clinton's famous quote "It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is" Using semantics to try and wiggle one's way around an obviously addressed issue is never a good thing.
All this to say, disagree if you like, but answer my one question. If the term "sexual immorality" is not referring to premarital sex, what is it referring to exactly? If one can say it does not mean premarital sex, then the burden is on them to say what it does mean exactly, if a legitimate scripturally backed claim on what it could mean other than that is presented, I may contemplate the subject further.
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chingchang
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If you want to indulge a serious study of Biblical sexual ethics then start with this:
Amazon.com: Divine Sex: Liberating Sex from Religious Tradition (9781553954002): Philo Thelos: Books
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zairsmith
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This would be moving in circles because sexual immortality, although not specific, is more associated with lust...which again Paul tells us to marry if we cannot refrain from having sex and Jesus tells us to look at a woman and lust after her in the heart requires repentence because to God, physical lust after an idividual is the basis of sexual immortality. So, any book you present must either be in alliance with the words Jesus spoke which indicates premarital, on a if:then logical based statement, is sexually immoral or this book would have to supersede the words Jesus spoke about the issue. Notice He said if a man lust after a woman he has already committed adultery in his heart. So, its safe to say sexual immortality starts at the very idea of sex outside of marriage. The if:then logic of Jesus on the subject seems to not only address married men and women but singles too. Hey, Jesus said it, I'm just a messenger!
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To be honest, this is not an issue that I think needs studying, its is very clear to me what the Bible means about sexual immorality in regards to premarital sex. That's why my question was for someone to provide a working definition of what sexual immorality would mean other than premarital sex and why to assume it does not mean premarital sex. Until then I see no reason to embark on research about the issue since I see no discrepancy in my belief. (My tone always comes across as formal or gruff, that's just how I type, my apologies). Also there are alot of books out there with twisted theology, you can interpret the Bible to say about most anything if you want to. That is the problem with highschool and college english professors, if you do not interpret the story the way they do then you are incorrect. The point should be what the author meant, not the way it can be interpreted to fit the readers needs
Also, to mention, if adultery is wrong (which Biblically it is), then let's analyze why it is wrong. It is wrong because it is breaking the bond a man and a woman have to each other through sex. But if premarital sex is not wrong, then why would adultery be wrong? Because you pledged through marriage to never have sex with another woman? Well if premarital sex is not wrong then what is the significance of that pledge, it is of no meaning since sex with other woman is not of moral significance anyway. (following the logic presented on premarital sex). In my opinion, Premarital sex being okay but adultery not being ok is a conflict of ideas. Either they are both ok or both not ok.
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If you are committed to your "fiance" then why can't you wait till you are Married? What if something happens before you get married and they end up not being "The One" and you end up marrying someone else? Now you just wasted this precious gift that God gave you on someone other than your husband. "Marriage" is not supposed to be "just a piece of paper" it is supposed to be a unity of a man and a woman witnessed and blessed by God. Where you have actually taken a Vow before God and where you have fully committed yourself to be with the other person. You may know that you are planning to be committed to that person but why not wait till you both have committed with God as your witness? Is there really such a rush? You have the rest of your lives to have Sex or at least you should, if you are truly committed. Marriage is supposed to be a bond between a man and a woman and sex is supposed to be the final unity of that bond. So wait and save it for that special day.
God Bless
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chingchang
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So...if I lust after my wife have a committed adultery in my heart? She is a woman. What if I lusted after her 1 hour before we got married? Have I committed a sin then? What about a non-married woman? What if she lusts after a non-married man? Has she committed a sin?
You're understanding of Jesus' teaching is incorrect. This IS an issue which requires study.
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chingchang
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It is absolutely an issue which requires rigorous study. Notice nobody is on these forums debating whether or not murder is a sin...
I wouldn't assume anything. Prove that it does include premarital sex. The Bible is very direct on what is a sin...because God did not want his people to be ignorant of sin. Leviticus 18 is a good starting place. If a behavior does not appear in a list of OT prohibitions...and that behavior does not violate the "Royal" Law (see James)...then YOU must prove that it is a sin...not the other way around.
But that is what you are doing. Nowhere in the Bible is premarital sex prohibited. If it were...we would expect to find it in the OT...likely Leviticus 18...and it would say something like this: "thou shalt not have sexual relations with a woman prior to entering a marriage covenant with her"
Actually, adultery is a specific type of theft. God his a huge proponent of property rights. During OT times...the woman was the literal property of the man...bought and paid for. If a man who wasn't married to her seduced her...that was equivalent to theft of the husband's property.
Because adultery involves at least one married person and is theft. If two non-married people have sex...who's marriage covenant was violated? What if nobody was harmed and those two non-married people enjoyed themselves and gave thanks to God? Where is the sin?
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chingchang
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Why does it matter? If you love her and she loves you and you are engaged to be married...where is the sin?
The horror!
Absolutely false! Show me scripture that says my (male) virginity is a "gift" from God. BTW...do you know why virginity was a big deal during OT times? Just curious...
I think that would be ideal...but the point here is that premarital sex is not a sin. Perhaps not the wisest choice...but certainly not a sin.
I think people are in a hurry to obey God's first command to mankind. It's biology...he made us this way.
You could be truly committed and die a virgin in Iraq. The "rest of your lives"? The only thing life guarantees us is death...
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good brother
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For many on these forums belief that sex outside the confines of marriage is fine as long as the two involved are "committed". One of the biggest problems I see with this is there is no real commitment if there is no exchange of vows. Let's take a look at it. A person who is "committed" to going to church does not make them saved. A person "committed" to being dunked underwater in a church building does not make them baptized. A person "committed" to eating bread and drinking wine or juice does not mean they have rightfully taken part of communion. A person "committed" to reading the Bible does not mean they're joined to God. ONLY when one accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior do these things bring spiritual meanings. A person who did all these things except accept Jesus as Lord means they are still lost in their sins and have no hope of salvation.
Whether it be for marriage or salvation, a public profession means that we have made a stance and that is where we are standing. Without that public profession there is no commitment. Without an outward public declaration there is no inward solidarity.
We wouldn't tell someone who is lost that they are "fine" if they were going to church and taking communion and reading their Bible but had not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We wouldn't tell them not to worry about some public profession of faith, we wouldn't tell them "not to worry, I'm sure God knows that you're trying."
No.
We tell them they must be saved! We tell them that there is no salvation found in anyone else except the the One who bears the name of Jesus Christ!
Vows are important.
In Christ, GB
Whether it be for marriage or salvation, a public profession means that we have made a stance and that is where we are standing. Without that public profession there is no commitment. Without an outward public declaration there is no inward solidarity.
We wouldn't tell someone who is lost that they are "fine" if they were going to church and taking communion and reading their Bible but had not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. We wouldn't tell them not to worry about some public profession of faith, we wouldn't tell them "not to worry, I'm sure God knows that you're trying."
No.
We tell them they must be saved! We tell them that there is no salvation found in anyone else except the the One who bears the name of Jesus Christ!
Vows are important.
In Christ, GB
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