Transgender and the church

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jennimatts

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You will be held accountable for how you judge others. Do you want God to judge you based on the Torah, when you ignore 99% of the Mitzvot?

This thread is a perfect example of why I'm starting to despise modern day Christianity. The amount of misinformation and self-righteous condemnation is beyond words.

Sure there are problems with much of modern day Christianity, but the same could be said of the church throughout history. I think it's generally much better now than several hundred years ago. The church doesn't have the political power it once had, so it is less able to destroy those who challenge their teachings.

I really don't think most Christians are the vindictive vendetta seekers some people think they are. Do Christians get overzealous and forget the big picture that we are to be sharing the Word of God with the lost? Yeah, I think many do. Does that make them evil-out-to-get-all-those-who-disagree-kind-of-people? No, it makes them human.

On this we agree, however...

...just because they do it without malice, whether out of ignorance, fear, confusion, zealotry, or some other reason, does not negate that they do do it, and it has consequences...
 
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jennimatts

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Was the sex change after the marriage?

I had not considered that question. I think most states/countries still require a couple to be opposite sex in order to be married, and I read the scenario with the assumption that the sex change was before the marriage. Yet the question you raise is a possibility.

Secondly he/she made the sex change before faith in Christ. This is the key bit. If he/she now knows the truth in Christ he/she can be forgiven.

It almost sounds as if there is an implication that since she had the sex change before coming to Christ, all is ok? Conversely, if the sex change was after coming to Christ, are you implying she couldn't be forgiven?
 
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jennimatts

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We are trying to have a discussion about gender dysphoria, its bad enough having the T in LGBT without gay activists ruining the thread.

Not sure where the activists you mention are? I haven't seen anyone actively promoting LGB, only responses to those who refuse to separate the two topics.

And yet ironically, you are the one that keeps turning every post about Transgenderism into an issue related to homosexuality because you think the 2 are in league with each other. You're the one ruining the thread.

From here it appears that there are just a few who keep trying to throw transsexual (gender dysphoric) individuals under the bus the same way they do with LGB.

So, can we just leave the LGB out of this and rationally discuss the topic at hand, or is it brightmorningstar's position that once one undergoes sex reassignment surgery, they are LGB? Certainly a few others that have posted on this thread feel that way.
 
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SnowyMacie

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Ah but that’s the problem, we might say the same to pro-choice abortionists. We don’t need to appeal to emotion. All the drug addict has to do to heal themselves is give up the drug, sounds simple yet many are unable to and die. The emotional appeal that somehow someone’s particular struggle is impossibly worse than others is not really evident.
Christians do not necessarily have lives that are trouble free, faith brings all kinds of challenges. Christ’s NT teaching says do not be surprised at the suffering. The very lives of many Christians worldwide are threatened, millions don’t know where their next meal is coming from.

Yes, but drug addicts willfully choose to on drugs in the first place. They do it for the high/rush/whatever you want to call it. And yes, there are those who pretend to be women by choice for the rush and/or sexual desires. However, most of them do not want to live as women full time and even if they wanted to, no psychologist would ever approve surgery for them. A complete transition is only reserved for those who NEED it. Again, there are also some that go through partial transitions for various reasons. No true gender dysphoric is ever one by choice.

That’s an oxmoron. Some Christians experience gender dysphoria yes, but they would be Christians. Christianity is about Christ not human conditions. You see you seem to be saying the person with gender dysphoria must have their physical changed to match their mind and feelings, why? Why not have the mind and feelings changed to match the physical?

God did not design the mind to work that way. By age 5 or so brain starts loosing malleability and it slowly fades away until adulthood. If the brain is wired to think a certain way at birth and nothing is changed about it by adolescence, good luck changing their thinking process. God did this for many reasons (keeping people from being easily controlled by other people). However, the mind can be re-wired when there is no other option but to be re-wired. An example of this is language--it is hard to learn a second language after childhood, however, if you were dropped in the middle of,say, Russia with no money or connections, you would find it pretty easy to pick up Russian.
This malleability of the mind is one of the reasons why gender dysphoria is becoming more and more common. Even fifty years ago, none of this was possible and so the mind had to re-wire itself, since there was no other option.
 
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OllieFranz

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God did not design the mind to work that way. By age 5 or so brain starts loosing malleability and it slowly fades away until adulthood. If the brain is wired to think a certain way at birth and nothing is changed about it by adolescence, good luck changing their thinking process. God did this for many reasons (keeping people from being easily controlled by other people). However, the mind can be re-wired when there is no other option but to be re-wired. An example of this is language--it is hard to learn a second language after childhood, however, if you were dropped in the middle of,say, Russia with no money or connections, you would find it pretty easy to pick up Russian.
This malleability of the mind is one of the reasons why gender dysphoria is becoming more and more common. Even fifty years ago, none of this was possible and so the mind had to re-wire itself, since there was no other option.


But this rewiring is incomplete. An adult who learns a second language by "total immersion" does learn faster and more completely than one who learns in a classroom, but he still thinks in his native language and mentally translates everything. A bilingual child, who learns both languages young thinks in both languages. And since the "hard-wiring" for sexual identity occurs in the womb, it is almost impossible to successfully re-wire. That is why SRS is offered at all. It is, and should be, a last resort.

In past times, also, the "rewiring" was unsuccessful. Because of this, many transgenders mutilated themselves to rid themselves of the offending (male) genitals, or the offending (female) breasts. One Roman emperor, Heliobagus, who was himself transgendered, desperately funded research into safe and effective SRS. But the state of surgery at the time was insufficient to the task.
 
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SnowyMacie

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But this rewiring is incomplete. An adult who learns a second language by "total immersion" does learn faster and more completely than one who learns in a classroom, but he still thinks in his native language and mentally translates everything. A bilingual child, who learns both languages young thinks in both languages. And since the "hard-wiring" for sexual identity occurs in the womb, it is almost impossible to successfully re-wire. That is why SRS is offered at all. It is, and should be, a last resort.

In past times, also, the "rewiring" was unsuccessful. Because of this, many transgenders mutilated themselves to rid themselves of the offending (male) genitals, or the offending (female) breasts. One Roman emperor, Heliobagus, who was himself transgendered, desperately funded research into safe and effective SRS. But the state of surgery at the time was insufficient to the task.

I am aware of that, the language metaphor was the best I could think of at the moment. I agree about sexual identity occurs in the womb. Didn't know about the Roman emperor. Interesting.
 
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SonOfTheWest

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Oh, can you now.

Honestly, that is one of the most absurd and untrue statements I've ever read.

Would you ever, ever, ever in a million years choose to live as a female? No. And why? Because you are hardwired male. You couldn't live as a woman if your life depended on it.

The case of David Reimer proved beyond all doubt that gender is innate and hardwired. Born a normal male, his genitals were damaged during a botched circumcision. So, he was raised from infancy as a girl and renamed 'Brenda,' while his brother was raised a boy. 'Brenda' was never told what had happened, or why 'she' was being raised female. Yet, the 'girl' was never comfortable in that gender role, lived as an extreme tomboy and hated being a girl, and suffered terribly knowing that somehow 'her' life was all wrong. Eventually, at age 15, David defied his upbringing, took on the male life he was wired to live, and reclaimed his original name. Sadly, so much psychological and physical damage had been done to David through being forced to live as someone he was not, he ultimately took his own life.

If you don't believe any of this, look it up.

This is the pain gender dysphorics go through every single day, the pain you insist they should just try to live with. It doesn't work that way. You just can't live a life that is not yours.

This is also why I bring up the case of the german Kim Petras. She was born a born and said she was a girl as young as the age of 2 if I remember my reading correct. And had a sex change at, again if I remember correctly, the age of 16.
 
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SonOfTheWest

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Someone who has been diagnosed with a medical condition and undergoes treatment has no need to repent of having had medical treatment, and a persons medical history is not anyone else's business.

This times a million. No wait, I have to account for social inflation. So make that a billion. Transgenderism is morally neutral. It is a medical condition, needs to be treated as such. And for those lucky enough to have the medical coverage or otherwise have the economic ability to cover it, be treated medically through options like sex reasignment surgery.
 
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LoraElise

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Some Christians experience gender dysphoria yes, but they would be Christians.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. Can you rephrase, please?

You see you seem to be saying the person with gender dysphoria must have their physical changed to match their mind and feelings, why? Why not have the mind and feelings changed to match the physical?

As Son of the West so elegantly stated, gender dysphoria is morally neutral. It is a medical condition, and carries no more ethical weight than correcting a damaged heart. I wish more people would understand that.

You change the outer body because gender identity is hardwired into the brain (as was proven in the David Reimer case) and cannot be changed. The current state of medical science, however, allows for correction of the genitalia. It is not something done lightly, but only after years of counseling, medical treatment and real life experience.

And anyway, if the choice is between assigning primary importance to either a brain that is female or genitalia that are male, why in the world would you give precedence to the genitals? The brain is the miraculous, fragile center of who the person is, while genitalia are mindless tissue (except in the case of some, it seems :) ).
 
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OllieFranz

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I'm sorry, I don't follow. Can you rephrase, please?

I'm not completely sure, but based on some of his other posts in this thread, I think that BMS is OK with transsexuals, even post-op* transsexuals as long as they don't call themselves transgendered. To him, accepting the label "Transgendered" is buying into the LGBT "agenda."

*provided that the operation was before becoming a Christian. He does not seem to think that it is ever necessary for Christians to undergo SRS.

As Son of the West so elegantly stated, gender dysphoria is morally neutral. It is a medical condition, and carries no more ethical weight than correcting a damaged heart. I wish more people would understand that.

Because gender identity is hardwired into the brain (as was proven in the David Reimer case) and cannot be changed. The current state of medical science, however, allows for correction of the genitalia. It is not something done lightly, but only after years of counseling, medical treatment and real life experience.

And anyway, if the choice is between assigning primary importance to either a brain that is female or genitalia that are male, why in the world would you give precedence to the genitals? The brain is the miraculous, fragile center of who the person is, while genitalia are mindless tissue (except in the case of some, it seems :) ).
 
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brightmorningstar

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Jennimatts,
I had not considered that question. I think most states/countries still require a couple to be opposite sex in order to be married, and I read the scenario with the assumption that the sex change was before the marriage. Yet the question you raise is a possibility.
Ok because the church is not the state. The OP refers to the reaction of the church, if it was after the marriage before God, then they aren’t necessarily the man and woman married.
It almost sounds as if there is an implication that since she had the sex change before coming to Christ, all is ok?
Well, as explained at length, you may have people having the sex change so they can indulge in their sexual deviances.
Conversely, if the sex change was after coming to Christ, are you implying she couldn't be forgiven?
All things are forgiven in Christ, the question would be, if its wrong, have they actually come to Christ.


Not sure where the activists you mention are? I haven't seen anyone actively promoting LGB, only responses to those who refuse to separate the two topics.
Not sure why you cant see them from their arguments, all the people who have argued against them know because we have all said as much.

From here it appears that there are just a few who keep trying to throw transsexual (gender dysphoric) individuals under the bus the same way they do with LGB.
No, LGBT the T in LGBT is Transgender, you seem to be trying to clain it isnt. hello?
 
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OllieFranz

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What's the difference between the two transsexual and transgender


The word transgender applies to anyone for whom the three indicators of sexual identity (genetic, physical, and mental) do not all agree. A transsexual is a transgendered person for whom the "odd man out" is the mental, and who has resolved to live as his mental sexual identity. These are the ones who often, though not always, require SRS. When Transgendered is rendered with a capital T, and especially when in the abbreviation GLBT, the word also includes the inter-sexed (people whose genetic or physical sex is either mixed [such as hermaphrodites or genetic chimeras whose two DNA signatures are opposite sexed] or indeterminate [They have undeveloped sexual organs, or instead of XX or XY genes, they have XXY, or X or some extra fragments of an X, etc.]), and the overlapping group that includes the anrdogyne, the "genderqueer," etc. (basically the mental identity equivalent of inter-sexed).

...is this topic not about how God sees the situation?
The focus here should be partly on that (although there are too few clues in Scripture to be sure of God's specific commands to these people based on their condition), but mostly on how we, as Christians, should show God's love toward them.

Jesus, Paul, and James all focused on the command to show God's love to everyone equally. Rich or poor (James 2:1-3), saint or sinner (Matthew 9:10-11), Jew, Samaritan (Luke 17:12-19), or Gentile. Everyone. Equally. (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11)

And for the Christian, the command on how to show God's love to everyone, no matter who, and no matter their sin, is to show God's forgiveness. Unconditionally. That is, without putting any conditions or limitations on our forgiveness. We are never told to make them repent before we forgive them. In fact quite the opposite. If God does not grant them forgiveness in the final judgment, that is between them and God, and none of our business.

The act of unconditional forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for ours, and our communities'. If there are physical or legal consequences to their sins, those must play out. But we are not to compound their sins with ours; we must not harbor (sinful) thoughts of judgment or revenge or perform acts which show our un-charity toward the sinner.

If an ongoing sin is harming an innocent party, we can intervene and reason with the sinner, but we still must forgive him even while he is still sinning. We cannot condemn him, or judge him. Only Jesus can.
 
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zairsmith

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The focus here should be partly on that (although there are too few clues in Scripture to be sure of God's specific commands to these people based on their condition), but mostly on how we, as Christians, should show God's love toward them.

Jesus, Paul, and James all focused on the command to show God's love to everyone equally. Rich or poor (James 2:1-3), saint or sinner (Matthew 9:10-11), Jew, Samaritan (Luke 17:12-19), or Gentile. Everyone. Equally. (Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11)

And for the Christian, the command on how to show God's love to everyone, no matter who, and no matter their sin, is to show God's forgiveness. Unconditionally. That is, without putting any conditions or limitations on our forgiveness. We are never told to make them repent before we forgive them. In fact quite the opposite. If God does not grant them forgiveness in the final judgment, that is between them and God, and none of our business.

The act of unconditional forgiveness is not for their benefit, but for ours, and our communities'. If there are physical or legal consequences to their sins, those must play out. But we are not to compound their sins with ours; we must not harbor (sinful) thoughts of judgment or revenge or perform acts which show our un-charity toward the sinner.

If an ongoing sin is harming an innocent party, we can intervene and reason with the sinner, but we still must forgive him even while he is still sinning. We cannot condemn him, or judge him. Only Jesus can.

True we are tl forgive them if they sin against us...just because one may not agree with the way they live doesn't mean that this individual is condemning them...people are quick to play Tue judge card when someone has opposing points of view.
 
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OllieFranz

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True we are tl forgive them if they sin against us...just because one may not agree with the way they live doesn't mean that this individual is condemning them...people are quick to play Tue judge card when someone has opposing points of view.

If you are forgiving them, you are not judging them. If the shoe does not fit, don't wear it. And yes, I agree we can discuss differing understandings of the commands without it being judgmental. That is different from withholding forgiveness, and requiring "repentence" before offering it.
 
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SnowyMacie

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Well, as explained at length, you may have people having the sex change so they can indulge in their sexual deviances.

No doctor would ever sign off on a SRS if the person was going to have it to indulge in sexual deviance and the like. Having and SRS is not like having plastic surgery, no one can just go to a surgeon and have it done. A psychologist or psychiatrist must sign off before a person can even begin the first steps. SRS is the last step in a process that takes about two years.


Not sure why you cant see them from their arguments, all the people who have argued against them know because we have all said as much. No, LGBT the T in LGBT is Transgender, you seem to be trying to clain itisnt. hello?

I don't think that is what she or anyone else is saying. What we are all saying is that the only reason transgendered people are in that group is for legal reasons. The only thing that transgendered people have in common with the LGB part is not having the same protections under U.S. law.
 
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Redheadedstepchild

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This thread is being closed for review. It may or may not be re-opened at the end of the process. This thread is over a year old but was recently bumped. While this thread is about transgender, there are older posts in this thread that violate the ban on discussing homosexuality.

Thank you for understanding.
 
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