Transgender and the church

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LoraElise

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On the topic of transexualism ....
From Mass Resistance

Mass Resistance-- a group desperately phobic and opposed to gender dysphorics. They tried to convince everyone that people in transition only wanted to molest 'decent people's' little daughters in public restrooms -- a disgusting and ridiculous assertion.

To the Massachusetts Judiciary Committee
Testimony regarding Bill H502
[Submitted at hearing by MassResistance]
June 8, 2011
by Walt Heyer
I'm a male-to-female transgender who lived and worked as Laura Jensen for years. Changing genders is zany, exciting and fun at first, but many of us have discovered right away or years after changing genders that our lives turn to disappointment, sorrow and regret. The evidence of this extreme regret can be found in the staggering suicide rate for transgenders, reported to be 30 to 40%.

If this was ever 'zany' or 'fun' for this person, he was not gender dysphoric, but instead was sexually driven and had surgery for the wrong reasons. People do stupid things all the time, and some use their money, influence or other unwise methods to bypass the stringent system put into place by physicians and counselors to keep exactly this kind of thing from happening. There have been several similar testimonies put forward by people who thought they'd get a thrill out of trying life on the other side. Sadly, those who are truly dysphoric get painted with the same broad brush that Mass Resistance and too many others are only too happy to use.

The treatment success rate among gender dysphorics (who are distinguished from sexual thrill seekers like the one who testified above) is among the highest in medicine. Fewer than 3% regret having had the surgery, and most of what few regrets there are come from the lack of family, church and social acceptance the person finds afterward.

The staggering suicide rate mentioned of 30% to 40% does not exist among those who have transitioned and completed treatment, but refers instead to those who have not. I gave this statistic in an earlier post.

This testimony is an out and out lie. Mass Resistance found someone whose ill-conceived experience met their ideological needs, got him to write up the above, and submitted it to the Committee.

Fortunately, this kind of dishonest tactic usually does not work. Laws in other places (such as Connecticut) have been passed, and gender dysphorics there will now have legal protection from those who would do them harm simply because they possess an innate identity that differs from that of the common masses.
 
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OllieFranz

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It is generally agreed that homosexuality and anything connected with it is inconsistent with holy living. There is no conflict about that in the clear statements found at different places in the Old and New Testaments.

But homosexuality is merely one of the evidences of the sinful nature that every human being has. There is a big list (somewhere in the NT) of the sinful practices that would keep unconverted people out of God's kingdom.

The problem is that Christian groups have catalogued sins from minor to major, and unfortunately homosexuality is considered one of the major sins.

In reality, God does not catalogue them that way. Sin is sin, and outside of Christ, even minor sins will keep a person out of the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus, in talking about killing, says that even angry and bitter thoughts towards another person is the same, and will condemn a person just as effectively as if they got a gun and shot them.

Jesus was quite clear that Christian faith was not a matter of following a set of hard and fast rules. Following the Law failed to justify a person because of the sinful nature preventing a person keeping the Law entirely. This is why Jesus died on the cross. Converted believers have received a new heart to do the will of God in their lives.

We all have the sentence of death in ourselves, whether we were homosexuals and prostitutes in the red light district, or self-righteous church goers from the "right side of the tracks". Read the parable about the Pharisee and the publican and you get the idea.

While God hates homosexuality, He love the homosexual and is not willing that he/she should perish but instead come to Christ to be forgiven, saved, and put in a place where they can be changed by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I will deal with transexuals in another post.

I can agree with everything in this post except the first two sentences and the occasional phrase that reflects the assumptions in those sentences. I will not comment on them, however, because homosexuality is a forbidden topic.

I'm glad to notice that you intend to deal with transsexualism separately. May I trust that you also consider the rest of the transgendered spectrum, and the inter-sexed and androgynous spectrums also to be separate from sexual orientation?
 
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Jase

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Do you know any that have been called on this and are you yourself a translator or a Biblical scholar. Your statement holds no validity without proof. Just like mine without Biblical proof.

Can't remember the name of it, but a Catholic Bible altered the meaning of certain verses in the 1950s to condemn those they don't like, and they were so heavily criticized by scholars and the community for their dishonesty, it was removed in the next edition.
 
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David Brider

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It is generally agreed that homosexuality and anything connected with it is inconsistent with holy living.


Only by people who mistakenly think that "homosexuality" means "men having sex with men".

David.
 
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zairsmith

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Can't remember the name of it, but a Catholic Bible altered the meaning of certain verses in the 1950s to condemn those they don't like, and they were so heavily criticized by scholars and the community for their dishonesty, it was removed in the next edition.

Maybe so, still I fail to believe that the 1611 edition AKJV is altered to filter out homosexuality. I read primarily from the AKJV. If this is the case then us who study the Bible who do not have direct access to the true manuscripts and scrolls are in grave danger because our knowledge of God's word have been tainted and we will not be able to correct it.
 
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David Brider

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What other definition is their other than having sexual relations with people of the same sex.

Homosexuality is a tendency to be romantically and physically attracted to people of the same gender as oneself.

Some homosexuals, but by no means all, have sexual relations with people of the same sex as themselves.

And not all people who have sexual relations with people of the same sex as themselves are homosexual (some are bisexual, and it's quite possible that a tiny number are heterosexual).

So no, homosexuality is not the same thing as having sexual relations with people of the same sex as oneself. There's an overlap there, but they're not the same thing.

David.
 
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David Brider

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Ok...I can accept this. Still is the act of having sex with the same sex accepted by God?

Honestly, I think it depends on the circumstances. If it's promiscuous or raping or abusng somebody, then obviously it's bad. But in a monogamous relationship between two consenting, loving adults, I'm not convinced it's particularly a big deal, or any different to the same situation between two people of the opposite sex. Better if they're married, IMO, but then I'm very much a no sex before marriage kind of guy. But then IMO that's an argument in favour of same-sex marriage. YMMV.

David.
 
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brightmorningstar

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Olliefranz,
The passages, which exist throughout the Bible are used to demonstrate the sin, it is those who are not free in Christ from the sin who call them clobber passages. These people are godphobic and claim they are in Christ and free from sin, which is of course a falsehood and deception. The Bible makes references to these types of people in various NT passages, not least those who merely call themselves brothers. 1 Cor 5.

All the major Bible translations throughout time have condemnations of same sex relations, the level of unbelief and disobedience of the LGCM is demonstrated by their unwillingness to accept any of what any of the passages says and spend all their time denying what the word of God says whilst claiming the are believers.
 
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brightmorningstar

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David Brider,
Only by people who mistakenly think that "homosexuality" means "men having sex with men".
It does, that’s what the Bible says. Those who deny it merely disbelieve God’s word and clear instruction. It also includes behaviour in some dictionary definitions. The rules say you are not to promote homosexuality anywhere on this forum let alone in this section n yet you continue to do so.


We are trying to have a discussion about gender dysphoria, its bad enough having the T in LGBT without gay activists ruining the thread.
 
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brightmorningstar

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LoraElise,
Mass Resistance-- a group desperately phobic and opposed to gender dysphorics.
As opposed to Zhou, Gooren, Swaab who are in favour.

The staggering suicide rate mentioned of 30% to 40% does not exist among those who have transitioned and completed treatment, but refers instead to those who have not. I gave this statistic in an earlier post.
Whilst the rates are alarming, at the same time abortion is killing millions of unborn babies and people defend it. The high rate of suicide for reasons of gender and sex is largely due to people not realising God loves them but listening to the complaints that unless they can think do and behave as they want society hates them.


What do you think about the other links?
 
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zairsmith

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Honestly, I think it depends on the circumstances. If it's promiscuous or raping or abusng somebody, then obviously it's bad. But in a monogamous relationship between two consenting, loving adults, I'm not convinced it's particularly a big deal, or any different to the same situation between two people of the opposite sex. Better if they're married, IMO, but then I'm very much a no sex before marriage kind of guy. But then IMO that's an argument in favour of same-sex marriage. YMMV.

David.

Well, we have different views on this nevertheless as it stands you are entitles to your opinion and I bow out of this debate in love may God bless you...guess we will find out when we stand before God until then I gave you my perspective and you gave me yours but only God knows which one is accurate. I just have to go off the Bible and what it says...i will love LGBT but WILL NOT endorse their actions if they are romantically involved with members of the same sex.
 
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LoraElise

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LoraElise,
As opposed to Zhou, Gooren, Swaab who are in favour.

They aren't in favor. They are scientists and physicians releasing the evidence their medical studies have revealed.

Whilst the rates are alarming, at the same time abortion is killing millions of unborn babies and people defend it. The high rate of suicide for reasons of gender and sex is largely due to people not realising God loves them but listening to the complaints that unless they can think do and behave as they want society hates them.

Why even bring up the abortion issue? That has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Surely you aren't asking, "why be concerned with the suicides of transsexuals when millions of babies are dying by abortion?"

The high rate of suicide among gender dysphorics has many causes. To say that they kill themselves because they can't 'get their sinful way' is both wrong and cruel. Those dysphorics who do not know Christ may lose all hope and collapse under the emotional agony of their neural mismatch, but they are not unique in that hopelessness -- all kinds of people without Christ, in all walks of life, with all kinds of conditions or circumstances, can experience that. However, the pain gender dysphorics suffer is especially intense because it dwells in the very core of their being.

Many Christian gender dysphorics pray for decades for deliverance from the agony they experience, and none comes. God hears, yet their brains and bodies remain mismatched. Changing them would mean making them different people -- perhaps they already are the people God wanted them to be for the outworking of His plan. In any case, no one should add to their immense burden with closed doors and accusations of sexual deviance.

Most gospel-believing gender dysphorics are expelled from their congregations as soon as their condition is revealed, and are turned away from the doors of new churches. They remain saved, of course, but the fellowship so many of them cherish has been ripped away, leaving them alone and rejected. Many lose everything -- family, friends, churches, jobs, life savings -- because they can no longer go on living a lie as someone they are not, and must finally live as who they truly are. The stresses of trying to live as a man when one is hardwired female (or vice versa) are unbearable -- one transitions, or one dies.

Speaking of links, did you ever read any of the ones CocoaBean posted for me earlier in this thread, that point to the medical studies?
 
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David Brider

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Well, we have different views on this nevertheless as it stands you are entitles to your opinion and I bow out of this debate in love may God bless you...guess we will find out when we stand before God...

Which is fair enough, but what's he likely to say to me? "Oi, David! There was a same-sex couple living half a mile from you having sex three or four nights a week in the half hour between washing up after their evening meal and going to sleep for the night and you didn't go to their house and tell them what vile sinners they are!"? I don't think so, somehow.

...until then I gave you my perspective and you gave me yours but only God knows which one is accurate. I just have to go off the Bible and what it says...

Me too.

i will love LGBT but WILL NOT endorse their actions if they are romantically involved with members of the same sex.

But presumably the only action you actually have an issue with is same-gender sexual intercourse, and not anything else they do?

David.
 
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David Brider

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It does, that’s what the Bible says.


The Bible doesn't define "homosexuality". It would have a hard time doing so, given that the word wasn't even coined until the mid 19th century.

It also includes behaviour in some dictionary definitions.

Some, yes. But any dictionary definition which includes same-sex sexual activity under a definition of homosexuality is using a definition of homosexuality which excludes many homosexual people and includes many people who aren't homosexual. Therefore, that would be a flawed definition.

The rules say you are not to promote homosexuality anywhere on this forum let alone in this section n yet you continue to do so.

No, I continue to correct people's mistaken assumptions about sexual orientations in general and (because it's the most discussed sexual orientation) homosexuality in particular. If people didn't express mistaken assumptions, I wouldn't need to correct them.

We are trying to have a discussion about gender dysphoria, its bad enough having the T in LGBT without gay activists ruining the thread.

If you follow the thread carefully, you will note that I've only discussed homosexuality in response to other people mentioning it first. And those other people, as far as I can tell, are not gay activists. Neither am I, for that matter.

David.
 
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brightmorningstar

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David Brider,
Thats falsehood and deception.
The Bible condemns men abandoning natural relations with women and committing indecent acts with men. LGBT supports such relationships. If you want to use the term and concept 'homosexual' then the Bible condemns the behavioural part. To argue that is only part of it is purely deception.

Nor does the Bible have the concept of sexual orientation. If one were to apply the concept of sexual orientation then a sexual orientation would only be God's purpose to ones spouse in a faithful man/woman marriage.
 
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brightmorningstar

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LoraElise,
Not all scientists and physicians have the same sort of evidence as Zhou, Gooren, Swaab do, or make the same conclusions… as per the links.
Why even bring up the abortion issue?
For perspective, I am saying yes we do have all kinds of concerns and ones involving even greater numbers.


The high rate of suicide among gender dysphorics has many causes. To say that they kill themselves because they can't 'get their sinful way' is both wrong and cruel.
Ah but that’s the problem, we might say the same to pro-choice abortionists. We don’t need to appeal to emotion. All the drug addict has to do to heal themselves is give up the drug, sounds simple yet many are unable to and die. The emotional appeal that somehow someone’s particular struggle is impossibly worse than others is not really evident.

Christians do not necessarily have lives that are trouble free, faith brings all kinds of challenges. Christ’s NT teaching says do not be surprised at the suffering. The very lives of many Christians worldwide are threatened, millions don’t know where their next meal is coming from.

Many Christian gender dysphorics pray for decades for deliverance from the agony they experience, and none comes.
That’s an oxmoron. Some Christians experience gender dysphoria yes, but they would be Christians. Christianity is about Christ not human conditions.

You see you seem to be saying the person with gender dysphoria must have their physical changed to match their mind and feelings, why? Why not have the mind and feelings changed to match the physical?
 
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Jase

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Maybe so, still I fail to believe that the 1611 edition AKJV is altered to filter out homosexuality. I read primarily from the AKJV. If this is the case then us who study the Bible who do not have direct access to the true manuscripts and scrolls are in grave danger because our knowledge of God's word have been tainted and we will not be able to correct it.
You never had access to the original scrolls. They don't exist.

Anyone who thinks the Bible is perfectly incorruptible is being extremely naive.

"Nowadays, as is evident, there is a great diversity between the various manuscripts, either through the negligence of certain copyists, or the perverse audacity shown by some in correcting the text, or through the fault of those, who, playing the part of correctors, lengthen or shorten it as they please." - Origen


"Certain Christians, like men who are overcome by the fumes of wine and care not in the least what they say, alter the original text of the Gospels so that they admit of various and almost indefinite readings. And this, I suppose, they have done out of worldly policy, so that when we press an argument home, they might have the more scope for their pitiful evasions"
. - Celsus

"Besides, it is not at all fair to bring this charge against the Christian religion as a crime unworthy of its pretended purity; only those persons who were concerned in the fraud should, in equity, be held answerable for it" (Origen, Contra Celsus).

"They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

"Now, inasmuch as all interpolation must believed to be a later process… One man perverts the scriptures with his hand, another their meaning by his exposition… Marcion expressly and openly used the knife, not the pen, since he made such an excision of the scriptures as suits his own subject matter" -Tertullian(De Praescript. 38).

In his book, Introduction to the New Testament, B.W. Bacon wrote: "The Christian can only mitigate the disrespect he feels for plagiarists and impostors by the reflection that the conscience of the second century had practically no recognition for those literary crimes, rampant as they then were in the Church" (p. 168).

In his Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, by Dr. F. H. Scrivener, he writes that: "In the second century we have seen too many instances of attempts to tamper with the text of Scripture, some merely injudicious, others positively dishonest".
 
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Jase

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David Brider,
It does, that’s what the Bible says. Those who deny it merely disbelieve God’s word and clear instruction. It also includes behaviour in some dictionary definitions. The rules say you are not to promote homosexuality anywhere on this forum let alone in this section n yet you continue to do so.
Correcting your understanding of scripture is not promoting homosexuality. And that rule also does not permit you to attack gays, and yet you do that in every single post.

We are trying to have a discussion about gender dysphoria, its bad enough having the T in LGBT without gay activists ruining the thread.
And yet ironically, you are the one that keeps turning every post about Transgenderism into an issue related to homosexuality because you think the 2 are in league with each other. You're the one ruining the thread.
 
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