Yes, yes, another sex before marriage thread *(but please read)

chingchang said:

You're exegesis is flawed. In polygamy there are multiple instances of man-wife uniting...in the same way that Jesus can be a "personal" Lord to each one of us...individually. To prove that polygamy isn't sinful is rather easy. All of the OT Patriarchs were polygamists. God gave them the law so they would NOT be ignorant of sin. If polygamy were a sin...then God would have said so in his law.

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Is smoking crack a crime? It is not given in the OT. Every single time that marriage is mentioned in the OT it is listed as one man and one woman. No where is polygamy explicitly listed as an option for a type of marriage or relationship. No where in any of the Bible did God ordain, condone or bless it.

Furthermore, God blessed David with MANY wives. I say "God blessed" because when God spoke to David through the Prophet Daniel in 2 Samuel...after he had committed adultery (theft) with Bathsheba...he told David that if he wanted more (women)...he would have given him more.

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There are several problems with what you are saying. First, you insert words into selected paraphrases. Second, you give no passage reference for your readers to look up on their own. Third, you assume that adultery means the same as theft when clearly it was listed as two different crimes in the ten commandments and when Jesus spoke of adultery, He did not treat it as a theft. Fourth, you misrepresent Scripture when you say that God would have given David "more (women)" if he had wanted. The Bible does not say that.

God is simply not concerned with the number of wives a man has.

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That is quite the assumption. I fear God to a point that I would rather live a life in such a way that I refrain from doing something which might be a sin versus living a life that claims what is and is not sin in audacity and pride.

In Christ, GB

chingchang said:

I had sex with my wife before marriage. No STDs...no unwanted pregnancies...no guilt...just a whole-lot of luvin'!!!

CC

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And if both of you started as virgins, then I maintain that this would have been entirely consistent with God's teachings.

Whether some other arrangement would have been fine too is not for me to judge- but I do believe that the life-long commitment to each other of one man and one woman is pleasing to God.

And as Good Brother so nicely put it- I'd rather go with what I know, than with something that might not be acceptable to God.

Here is another comment from the Bible regarding this issue:

1 Corinthians 7:

2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.

Notice the key words used here "sexual immorality", wife (singular) and husband (also singular).

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chingchang said:

I had sex with my wife before marriage. No STDs...no unwanted pregnancies...no guilt...just a whole-lot of luvin'!!!

CC

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I'm glad you are married...but can you tell me what is fornication and why the Bible says those who fornicates will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven?

In light of polygamy, the Bible strictly instructed that the kings of Israel were not to take to themselves more than one wife like the kings of the pagan nations. Before this the, Bible doesn't really mention if its ok or not but because we are told God is eternal and doesn't change its safe to say that this was the same requirement marriage = 1man +1 woman. If God said it best do it.

Is smoking crack a crime?

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A crime? Yes. A sin? Debatable...but probably.

It is not given in the OT. Every single time that marriage is mentioned in the OT it is listed as one man and one woman. No where is polygamy explicitly listed as an option for a type of marriage or relationship. No where in any of the Bible did God ordain, condone or bless it.

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You're wrong on both counts here. The OT Patriarchs didn't smoke crack cocaine...but they did have multiple wives and in some cases concubines as well.

There are several problems with what you are saying. First, you insert words into selected paraphrases. Second, you give no passage reference for your readers to look up on their own. Third, you assume that adultery means the same as theft when clearly it was listed as two different crimes in the ten commandments and when Jesus spoke of adultery, He did not treat it as a theft. Fourth, you misrepresent Scripture when you say that God would have given David "more (women)" if he had wanted. The Bible does not say that.

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Well gee...I guess I'll have to post it then:

2 Samuel 12:7-8 (NIV):
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

Who gave David his wives? Who would have given him more? If polygamy were a sin...why would Yahweh cause David to sin like that? Well...polygamy isn't a sin...but adultery (theft) and murder are sins and those are the sins that David was guilty of.

That is quite the assumption. I fear God to a point that I would rather live a life in such a way that I refrain from doing something which might be a sin versus living a life that claims what is and is not sin in audacity and pride

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Good for you! I would rather live free in the liberty that Christ has given me through his sacrifice. There is no fear in perfect love!

Hugs,
CC

zairsmith said:

I'm glad you are married...but can you tell me what is fornication and why the Bible says those who fornicates will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven?

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Those are excellent questions that have been discussed many times over on CF. I recommend doing a search. But...the general definition would be illicit sexual acts. There are two keys to learning which sexual acts are illicit...one is to let the Bible tell us and the other involves the history of ancient cultures. However...God didn't make up all of these rules randomly. There is an underlying ethic and if you uncover that ethic you can apply it across the board and you don't need a long list of rules. If you're really curious, then good luck on your journey...

CC

zairsmith said:

In light of polygamy, the Bible strictly instructed that the kings of Israel were not to take to themselves more than one wife like the kings of the pagan nations. Before this the, Bible doesn't really mention if its ok or not but because we are told God is eternal and doesn't change its safe to say that this was the same requirement marriage = 1man +1 woman. If God said it best do it.

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Could you post that scripture please?

TIA,
CC

chingchang said:

You're wrong on both counts here. The OT Patriarchs didn't smoke crack cocaine...but they did have multiple wives and in some cases concubines as well.

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I would be delighted to have you list all the places in the Bible where God ordained polygamy as an acceptable form of marriage. One thing I think you're confused on is, yes, there are accounts of polygamy in the Bible. Did God ordain it or was it just listed as happening because it happened. If it was the former, then God has ordained murder too because the Bible lists times where men committed murder (i.e. Cain, Moses, David). If polygamy is the latter and just put in the Bible as part of the story no matter how unbecoming it was of Godly men, then we must recognize it as such.

Well gee...I guess I'll have to post it then:

2 Samuel 12:7-8 (NIV):
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

Who gave David his wives? Who would have given him more? If polygamy were a sin...why would Yahweh cause David to sin like that?

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Scriptural Twister anyone? Right elbow to green. Left knee to yellow.

Well...polygamy isn't a sin...but adultery (theft) and murder are sins and those are the sins that David was guilty of.

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Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Two very different commands. Both of them made God's Top Ten List. How can you say they say the same thing? Should it be called the Nine Commandments?

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Good for you! I would rather live free in the liberty that Christ has given me through his sacrifice. There is no fear in perfect love!

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While true that perfect love casts out fear, it is good to realize that He is still God and He has not given us this grace so that we may continue in our sin.

In Christ, GB

chingchang said:

Could you post that scripture please?

TIA,
CC

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Deuteronomy 14-17 EVS states: when you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, 'I will set a king over me, like all nations that are around me,' you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, 'you shall never return that way again.' And he shall not acquire many wife's for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.

God bless.

So in this verse, it says the king isn't to acquire many horses or many wives. Since you think two wives is many, do you also teach that two horses is many and its a sin for Christians to own two horses?

I'd think that Solomon had many wives, so I'd have expected God to have rebuked him for that. But my reading of Solomon's live I don't see God rebuking Solomon for having foriegn wives that turned his heart against God.

Also I assume you think Moses wrote the 1st 5 books of the OT. Moses had 3 wives. Why didn't God let him get away with that? How could Moses write in contradiction to his own personal live and God not rebuke him?

dayhiker said:

So in this verse, it says the king isn't to acquire many horses or many wives. Since you think two wives is many, do you also teach that two horses is many and its a sin for Christians to own two horses?

I'd think that Solomon had many wives, so I'd have expected God to have rebuked him for that. But my reading of Solomon's live I don't see God rebuking Solomon for having foriegn wives that turned his heart against God.

Also I assume you think Moses wrote the 1st 5 books of the OT. Moses had 3 wives. Why didn't God let him get away with that? How could Moses write in contradiction to his own personal live and God not rebuke him?

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I have been a thief. God let me get away with that. That doesn't mean He approves.

In Christ, GB

How about this,

If there are many believers here in whom the spirit of truth abides but in which as a whole we cannot come into accordance should we not then declare this to be a controversial topic? If so, in such a case, in which we know not the clear stance of pre-marital sex according to scripture would it not be reasonable to arrive at a point in scripture in which we can all, as the bride, agree that it is not a sin to engage in intercouse? Which is indeed after marriage? Would it not be the logical conclusion to play it safe and wait until after marriage?

Here's one that just popped up, sorry if it is not clearly refined I'm just trying to make a point.

Would the perfect bride that God has arranged for his son Jesus have had pre-marital sex with other partners?

slaptotheface said:

Would the perfect bride that God has arranged for his son Jesus have had pre-marital sex with other partners?

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Great point!

Amen!

In Christ, GB

zairsmith said:

Deuteronomy 14-17 EVS states: when you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, 'I will set a king over me, like all nations that are around me,' you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. Only he must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, 'you shall never return that way again.' And he shall not acquire many wife's for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.

God bless.

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So that scripture allows for two wives, unlike you were suggesting.

Would the perfect bride that God has arranged for his son Jesus have had pre-marital sex with other partners? (slaptheface post #253)

The church is the bride of Christ only symbolically. We Christians are human. We are carnal creatures. It would not be possible for every Christian to keep those carnal urges under control for our entire lives if we all decided to take the bride description literally. The meaning of keeping the church or 'bride of Christ' pure until the wedding, is that we are to keep pagan or false gods away from her. If the church should adopt any of them into her, that would be considered Spiritual adultery.

chris4243 said:

So that scripture allows for two wives, unlike you were suggesting.

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Your opinion is as good as mine until its tried under the fire of the truth where only one will be correct.

zairsmith said:

Your opinion is as good as mine until its tried under the fire of the truth where only one will be correct.

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OK then smarty pants, answer truthfully: about how much is "many"?

slaptotheface said:

How about this,

If there are many believers here in whom the spirit of truth abides but in which as a whole we cannot come into accordance should we not then declare this to be a controversial topic? If so, in such a case, in which we know not the clear stance of pre-marital sex according to scripture would it not be reasonable to arrive at a point in scripture in which we can all, as the bride, agree that it is not a sin to engage in intercouse? Which is indeed after marriage? Would it not be the logical conclusion to play it safe and wait until after marriage?

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If you think choosing to be a Pharisee is playing it safe, perhaps you should review what Jesus thought of those people. Follow your own conscience, but don't add more than the scriptures say when telling others what they may or may not do, or you are certainly not "playing it safe".

Here's one that just popped up, sorry if it is not clearly refined I'm just trying to make a point.

Would the perfect bride that God has arranged for his son Jesus have had pre-marital sex with other partners?

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Maybe. Would the perfect bride that God has arranged for his son Jesus have warts? Are warts sinful?

chris4243 said:

OK then smarty pants, answer truthfully: about how much is "many"?

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Anything more than one can be considered "many". No, answer me this, truthfully why did Jacob ask his uncle after he laid with Leah "why have you caused me to sin against God...?" Being that in his heart he desired Rachael. If he could have them both without the notion of sin, why pose this question...?