Socialists?

How Socialist are you?

  • Very Socialist

  • Somewhat Socialist

  • Moderate

  • Not very Socialist

  • Grrrr Socialism! grrrrrrr!


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Bron

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Over here there's a saying that if you aren't left wing under 40 you don't have a heart and if you're still left wing over 40 you don't have a brain. :p
Haha, that sounds about right :D

I'm seem to be an anarchist-leaning socialist. Anarchist only in that I don't engage with the system as stands - I don't vote because it doesn't make a difference and they're all lying anyway. I might vote if I lived in Scotland, sadly I don't. Here's an interesting link regarding voting, some people will gag on their capitalist coffees on reading it Voting: The 'God' That Failed! by Gary D. Barnett
I believe capitalism is destroying the earth, and that Wikileaks and netizen-pressure groups offer a new way in 'politics'.

Communism may have too easily produced dictators, but I don't think 'democracy' as it is practised actually cuts the mustard either.
 
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lismore

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I might vote if I lived in Scotland, sadly I don't. .

Hey:wave:

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I agree though, the voting system in Scottish Parliament elections does seem to be much fairer. For those who dont know the scottish system there are two votes, first for a constituency member, second a proportional vote for a party.

:)
 
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sealacamp

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Yes it should have read 'greed and inequality'.


Wrong again. It should read that people who fill a need for others get rewarded for their efforts, for that is the vast majority of what capitalism is all about. Do you think that greed is eliminated by any Marxist based ideology? Take a look around at any place that has implemented such a system. Not only has it failed miserably but those in power became the rulers of everyone else and the nations suffered far more than any nation ever did under capitalism. You people that hate capitalists have a very narrow, unrealistic, view that lacks any historical perspective so that your conclusions are absolutely with out merit because they are false and misleading at best and a Utopian delusion at worst.

Sealacamp
 
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Rebekka

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Do you think that greed is eliminated by any Marxist based ideology? Take a look around at any place that has implemented such a system. Not only has it failed miserably but those in power became the rulers of everyone else and the nations suffered far more than any nation ever did under capitalism. You people that hate capitalists have a very narrow, unrealistic, view that lacks any historical perspective so that your conclusions are absolutely with out merit because they are false and misleading at best and a Utopian delusion at worst.
Who says that the people who hate capitalism do not hate communism as well? :wave:
 
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sealacamp

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Who says that the people who hate capitalism do not hate communism as well? :wave:


Well it was stated in the outset of this thread that socialism is not akin to communism and that is absolutely false. Marxism has reared its ugly head in many forms all of which are similar in nature, communism, socialism, leftism, progressivism. All adhere to Marxist theory and all are very destructive at the core, all of them cause people to suffer, instead of prosper. Did I say I was only speaking of communism? No I believe I said Marxist based ideologies.

BTW anyone that is truly interested in doing some historical research will find that what I stated is very well documented and easily proven, although many are still in denial about the truth of this matter, thus Marxism lives in all its destructive forms.

Sealacamp
 
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Rebekka

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Well it was stated in the outset of this thread that socialism is not akin to communism and that is absolutely false. Marxism has reared its ugly head in many forms all of which are similar in nature, communism, socialism, leftism, progressivism. All adhere to Marxist theory and all are very destructive at the core, all of them cause people to suffer, instead of prosper. Did I say I was only speaking of communism? No I believe I said Marxist based ideologies.

BTW anyone that is truly interested in doing some historical research will find that what I stated is very well documented and easily proven, although many are still in denial about the truth of this matter, thus Marxism lives in all its destructive forms.

Sealacamp
I'm not in the mood for debate, perhaps someone else wants to.

You can attack leftism if you like but that doesn't make capitalism good, not even by comparison.
 
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lismore

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It should read that people who fill a need for others get rewarded for their efforts, for that is the vast majority of what capitalism is all about.

My uncle, who gave up his job as a bookmaker's clerk 13 years back due to ill health showed me his final wage slip.

He worked a 90 hour week and was paid £107.

My cousin who works in construction was hired to build a swimming pool for who it turned out was my uncle's old boss. This man was paying people around £1 per hour to work in extreme stress, while he was living in the lap of luxury.

Your ducks dont line up.
 
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sealacamp

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I'm not in the mood for debate, perhaps someone else wants to.

You can attack leftism if you like but that doesn't make capitalism good, not even by comparison.


Nor does your assertion that leftism is good change one thing. The USA has been the most prosperous nation on this earth and the most generous as well. Capitalism made that possible, not any Marxist insanity. The ideology you have embraced is a deception and it is counterproductive to any long term benefit to anyone but those in power.


Your ducks dont line up.

Neither do yours. No one makes them work and those that can provide a job deserve a profit so they can continue to provide opportunity for others. Your microcosm of examples don't even come close to covering all the bases or dealing with the vast majority of people who work for someone else who pays them and most, not all, but most earn a decent living.

Whatever its intentions, the entitlement state produces far more selfish people -- and therefore, a far more selfish society -- than a free-market economy.

http://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2011/04/26/the_welfare_state_and_the_selfish_society


Sealacamp
 
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Bron

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I feel really discouraged at the state of local and world politics, hence my 'anarchist' leaning. I wouldn't claim to have a working model for a new world, but I know we're heading to hell in a handbasket right now. 'Democracy' as she is practised is nothing like any description of the kingdom of God that I've ever heard. And really, you've got to love how many 'sides' God is supposed to be on :) I believe He originally said he was on the 'side' of the weak and the oppressed.....
 
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QuakerOats

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Well it was stated in the outset of this thread that socialism is not akin to communism and that is absolutely false.
The OP stated that communism and socialism are not one and the same, which is absolutely true.

Marxism has reared its ugly head in many forms all of which are similar in nature, communism, socialism, leftism, progressivism. All adhere to Marxist theory and all are very destructive at the core, all of them cause people to suffer, instead of prosper. Did I say I was only speaking of communism? No I believe I said Marxist based ideologies.

The USA has been the most prosperous nation on this earth and the most generous as well. Capitalism made that possible, not any Marxist insanity. The ideology you have embraced is a deception and it is counterproductive to any long term benefit to anyone but those in power.
While I don't deny that capitalism has enabled the West to succeed, it must also be acknowledged that progressive ideology has indeed played its part. Contrary to what's been stated, progressive ideology is what has allowed us to grow and change — to be accommodating; it's what gave women and minorities the vote, amoung other things, and it's what put regulations on child labour. These things are all a part of what makes the West successful. Any ideology can be abused. The abuse of capitalism is what I personally object to.

Your microcosm of examples don't even come close to covering all the bases or dealing with the vast majority of people who work for someone else who pays them and most, not all, but most earn a decent living
I think it's decidedly hasty to say 'most,' and we'd have to define 'decent living.'
 
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Bron

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The USA has been the most prosperous nation on this earth and the most generous as well. Capitalism made that possible, not any Marxist insanity.

....the vast majority of people who work for someone else who pays them and most, not all, but most earn a decent living.

It's all very well to be wealthy and generous when you feel like it. I guess it doesn't feel the same when you're on the other side, waiting for crumbs from the master's table. Sure, the crumbs will no doubt fall, but you are dependent on the wealthy to drop them.

Here's an example of American capitalist generousity......

Haiti: WikiLeaks shows US opposed minimum wage rise, despite hunger



Sunday, June 12, 2011


By Kim Ives & Dan Coughlin
poverty_in_haiti_3.jpg



The United States embassy in Haiti worked closely with factory owners contracted by Levi's, Hanes, and Fruit of the Loom to aggressively block a paltry minimum wage rise for Haitian assembly zone workers.
The moves to block a wage rise for the lowest paid in the western hemisphere were revealed by secret US State Department cables obtained by Haiti Liberte and The Nation magazine.
The factory owners refused to pay $0.62 an hour, or $5 per eight-hour day, as mandated by a measure unanimously passed by Haiti’s parliament in June 2009.
The cables, provided by WikiLeaks, show that behind the scenes, factory owners were vigorously backed by the US Agency for International Development (USAID) and the US embassy.
Before the rise, the minimum daily wage was $1.75 a day.
The factory owners told parliament they were willing to give workers a mere nine cent per hour pay rise — to $0.31 an hour — to make T-shirts, bras and underwear for US clothing giants such as Dockers and Nautica.
To resolve the impasse, the State Department urged then-Haitian president Rene Preval to intervene.
US ambassador Janet Sanderson said in a June 10, 2009 cable to Washington: “A more visible and active engagement by Preval may be critical to resolving the issue of the minimum wage and its protest ‘spin-off’ — or risk the political environment spiraling out of control.”
Two months later, Preval negotiated a deal with parliament to create a two-tiered minimum wage rise — one for the textile industry at $3.13 a day and another for all other industrial and commercial sectors at $5 a day.
The US embassy was still not pleased. Deputy chief of mission David Lindwall said the $5 a day minimum wage “did not take economic reality into account”, but was a populist measure aimed at appealing to “the unemployed and underpaid masses”.
Haitian supporters of the minimum wage rise said that it was needed to keep pace with inflation and alleviate the rising cost of living.
Haiti is the poorest country in the hemisphere. The World Food Program estimates that about 3.3 million people in Haiti, a third of the population, are food insecure.
Haiti was rocked by the “clorox” food riots of April 2008, named after hunger so painful that it felt like bleach in your stomach.
A 2008 Worker Rights Consortium study found a working-class family with one working member and two dependents needed a daily wage of at least $13.75 to meet normal living expenses.
US opposition to the minimum wage rise was revealed in 1918 cables provided by WikiLeaks.
In response to a request for a statement, the US embassy’s information officer Jon Piechowski told Haiti Liberte: “As a matter of policy, the Department of State does not comment on documents that purport to contain classified information and strongly condemns any illegal disclosure of such information.
“In Haiti, approximately 80% of the population is unemployed and 78% earns less than $1 a day — the US government is working with the Government of Haiti and international partners to help create jobs, support economic growth, promote foreign direct investment that meets [International Labor Orgainsation] labor standards in the apparel industry, and invest in agriculture and beyond.”
For a 20-month period between early February 2008 and October 2009, US embassy officials closely monitored and reported on the minimum wage issue. The cables show that the embassy fully understood how popular the measure was in Haiti.
The cables said that the new minimum wage even had support from most of the Haitian business community “based on reports that wages in the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua (competitors in the garment industry) will increase also”.
But the proposal faced fierce opposition from Haiti's tiny assembly zone elite, which Washington had long been supporting with direct financial aid and free trade deals.
In 2006, the US Congress passed the Haitian Hemispheric Opportunity through Partnership Encouragement (HOPE) bill. This gave Haitian assembly zone manufacturers preferential trade incentives.


Two years later, Congress passed an even more generous bill called HOPE II. USAID provided technical assistance and training programs to factories to help them expand and take advantage of the new law.
US embassy cables claimed these efforts were threatened by parliamentary demands for a wage hike to keep pace with soaring inflation and high food prices.
A June 17, 2009, confidential cable from charge d’affairs Thomas C Tighe to Washington said: “Textile industry representatives, led by the Association of Haitian Industry (ADIH), objected to the immediate ($3.25) per day wage increase in the assembly sector, saying it would devastate the industry and negatively impact the benefits of … HOPE II.”
Ironically, Tighe’s confidential cable one week earlier, said the ADIH study had found that “overall, the average salary for workers in the [garment assembly] sector is $4.33” — only 67 cents a day less than the proposed minimum wage.
Nonetheless, the study urged opposing any rise in the minimum wage because “the current salary structure promotes productivity and serves as a competitive wage in the region”.
Tighe noted, however, that the “minimum salary for workers in the Free Trade Zone on the [Haiti-Domincan Republic] border is approximately $6.00”, a dollar more than the $5 demanded.
Still, the ADIH report concluded somehow that the minimum daily being demanded would cause “the loss of 10,000 workers”, more than one third of Haiti's 27,000 garment workers at that time.
Tighe said the ADIH and USAID “funded studies on the impact of near tripling of the minimum wage on the textile sector found that [the proposed] minimum wage would make the sector economically unviable and consequently force factories to shut down”.
Bolstered by the USAID study, factory owners lobbied heavily against the rise, the cables said.
The cables reveal how closely the US embassy monitored widespread pro-wage rise protests and openly worried about the political impact of the minimum wage battle.
United Nations troops were called in to quell student protests, sparking further demands for the end of the UN military occupation of Haiti.
On August 10, 2009, garment workers, students and other activists protested at the Industrial Park near Port-au-Prince airport. The police arrested two students, Guerchang Bastia and Patrick Joseph, on the charge of inciting the workers.
Demanding their immediate release, protesters marched to the Delmas 33 police station, where the police fired tear-gas and the throng replied with rock-throwing.
In the course of the demonstration, the windshield of Tighe's vehicle was smashed, and he took refuge in the police station.
Due to the fierce protests of workers and students, sweatshop owners and Washington won only a partial victory in the minimum wage battle, delaying the $5 a day minimum for one year and keeping the assembly sector's minimum wage a notch below all other sectors.
In October 2010, assembly workers' minimum wage rose to $5 a day, while in all other sectors it went to $6.25.
The Haitian Platform for Development Alternatives said in June 2009: “Every time the minimum wage has been discussed, [the assembly industry bourgeoisie in] ADIH has cried wolf to scare the government against its passage: that raising the minimum wage would mean the certain and immediate closure of industry in Haiti and the cause of a sudden loss of jobs.
“In every case, it was a lie.”
[Abridged from www.haiti-liberte.com .]
 
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127.0.0.1

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The US isn't really capitalist anymore, it's more fascist the way the banks buy our politicians and the way the taxpayers bail-out corporations who make reckless financial decisions.

Nobody is talking about cutting the billion $ subsidies to Big Oil which is making record profits, how is it capitalism to give a billion dollars to a company that isn't even in trouble? Meanwhile they saw we gotta cut food-stamps, low-income-heating-assistance, Medicare 'n other things because the government is broke.

If the government is broke then why are we bailing out the banks? Why are we giving them the bail-out money with no conditions on how they spend it? If we're broke then why is our military budget over $700 billion dollars annually?
 
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XtianAgain

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If we're broke then why is our military budget over $700 billion dollars annually?

I've always wondered that. We finance military bases all over the world. But, we're so broke we can't even give proper aid to the veterans that come home hurt. Sort of odd.
 
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Bron

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They have us all in a loop, convinced that we need to keep the political and economic status quo or disaster will follow, but what they really want is to convince us that we need them, that they're worth the ridiculous salaries they get paid.

The truth is, the status quo will not last long, and we are better off planning for the change than waiting for it to spring on us unprepared.
 
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rayodeluz

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Who Does Capitalism Really Work For?
By Alexi Goranov
November 6, 2009

In an October 27 column in The Tech, Ryan Normandin argues that “state capitalism” is right for America. Capitalism works, but for whom? Let’s us look at some numbers. The top 1 percent richest people own approximately 25 percent of all wealth in the US as of 2004 and that number has likely gone up. The bottom 80 percent of people own less than 20 percent of the wealth (Economic Policy Institute’s “State of Working America” 2009). So whether the current system works depends on whom you ask. Does the system work for the millions of uninsured, unemployed, and homeless? How about for the millions of hard working people that barely make ends meet?

Corporations have steadily increased their profits while working hours have increased and wages have stagnated for decades (see “State of the Dream, 2009” by United for a Fair Economy). So if you are a CEO, the system is not all that bad, but if you are a wage worker (wage-slave, to be exact), well, you may not be thrilled when someone tells you this is as good as it is going to get.

Under current estimates approximately 12 percent of our population lives in poverty (remember that we are the wealthiest country in the world). This is a vast underestimate because of the way the poverty level is estimated, and the official poverty line is around $24,000 for a family of four. Anyone with a sense of reality will know that this number needs to be doubled to be realistic. The median household income in the U.S. for the past few years has been in the range of $55,000, or about the realistic poverty level for a family of four. So the conclusion then must be that about 50 percent of the families in the U.S. live in less than comfortable conditions, while some actually live in complete misery. We also have the highest rate of incarceration in the world — not a statistic to be proud of.

It is shameful that the richest nation in the world has the worst healthcare system among industrialized countries, and a school system that is less than impressive. So under the current system of corporate control of the government, we have money, but we do not spend it on the health and education of our population. Instead, our money and resources get shunned into the coffers of corporations and into illegal wars that defend the interests of the same corporations. From the perspective of the average U.S. citizen, this is hardly a system worth defending. Now, if you were running a multinational corporation, it would be a completely different ball game.

To understand the system we need to look at the words of our founding fathers: “Those who own the country ought to run it” (John Jay). Since corporations own the country, they run it. And since corporations have nothing but one goal — to make profit — our country is the way it is.
Actually, it could be worse. But thanks to the millions of dedicated activists, this country has obtained some degree of civility. But these vestiges of fairness and equality, which were won with extraordinary sacrifices and dedication by working people, are under constant attack. Those parts of the government that do indeed serve the interest of the population in general have been under severe pressure for privatization, reduction ,or destruction: social security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment benefits, protection of worker rights, environmental protection, and more. These are still areas that could be exploited for profit; there are still hard working people that could be robbed of their savings and security! We need “flexibility of the work force,” to quote Alan Greenspan.

Michael Moore, in his new movie, does not actually say that the alternative to capitalism is “socialism.” He says it is “democracy.” We cannot defend a system that puts profit before people! It is our responsibility as citizens to come up with something better. Whether we call it “Socialism” or “Fried Beans” is not important, but protecting and providing justice, equality, and the defense of human rights is.

As a last point, I would like to mention that the examples usually given for what socialism is like (i.e. Soviet Union and Communist China) are not appropriate since neither of the two regimes is or was really socialist or democratic. No self-respecting socialist will be arguing that we embrace such system. A much better example might be what was in Catalonia, Spain, for few months in 1936–1937 (See Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell). Of course, that is rarely discussed since people may get the “wrong” idea: that a democratic and fair society is possible (See Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship by Noam Chomsky).
What I have written here is hardly original. Pick any of Noam Chomsky’s books, read Z Magazine, or listen to “Democracy Now!” to see how the world works.

Alexi Goranov is a postdoc at the David H. Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research.
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Hmm, I would have argued that the system we have in America today is not capitalism but "state capitalism"... but I guess I don't need to, because Alexi already conceded that point. He thinks we should move toward socialism, though he says he wouln't mind calling it "fried beans" instead, probably a good PR move since I like fried beans and don't much care for socialism. Anyway, I think moving away from state capitalism toward actual capitalism is a better plan... but you already knew that since you can see my Libertarian Party icon. :cool:
 
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Bron

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Alexi ... thinks we should move toward socialism, though he says he wouln't mind calling it "fried beans" instead, probably a good PR move

Haha, brilliant! Besides, it's easier for most to swallow fried beans than socialism ;)
 
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