LDS and Grace

skylark1

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It comes down to whether I believe the Bible to be true or LDS scriptures and theology. It really is an either/or decision. As you said, it is not complicated. Either many has "agency" or he does not. If he does then LDS theology is reasonable. If he does not, biblical theology is reasonable.

I believe that a great many non-LDS Christians would disagree with your last statement, but I leave it up to them to speak up if they're so inclined.

If they do, I would expect them to respond to my post. If not, then I consider that I am unaware of any who do.

Actually, I am one of those individuals and know many who agree with this quite assuredly. So, what is the problem now?

I see no problem. I just know Trinitarian Christians who would disagree with your position, so your statements are somewhat surprising to me. Either way, though, it certainly isn't a problem of mine whether you all agree or disagree.

I apologize for jumping into this so late, but the words that I bolded prompted me to respond to this.

I believe that "agency" or free will is compatable with biblical theology. I do not believe that biblical theology is only reasonable if man does not have agency. I am not sure if bbbbbbb has reversed his position, if he distiguishes between agency and free will, or if there has been a misunderstanding. Anyway, since the comment was made that if any Christians disagree with the comment at the end of the first post that they would speak up and respond to the post, I thought that I would offer my two cents.

I also wanted to add that although there is disagreement between the Calvinist, Arminian, and somewhere in between theological positions, I think that there is much more unity between Christians who differ in these beliefs than there is disunity. Although there can be some lively debates on internet boards about this, there is much more that we agree on, than disagree.
 
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TasteForTruth

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I apologize for jumping into this so late, but the words that I bolded prompted me to respond to this.

I believe that "agency" or free will is compatable with biblical theology. I do not believe that biblical theology is only reasonable if man does not have agency. I am not sure if bbbbbbb has reversed his position, if he distiguishes between agency and free will, or if there has been a misunderstanding. Anyway, since the comment was made that if any Christians disagree with the comment at the end of the first post that they would speak up and respond to the post, I thought that I would offer my two cents.

I also wanted to add that although there is disagreement between the Calvinist, Arminian, and somewhere in between theological positions, I think that there is much more unity between Christians who differ in these beliefs than there is disunity. Although there can be some lively debates on internet boards about this, there is much more that we agree on, than disagree.
Thanks for your input, Skylark. I think you're right about there being more upon which Christians agree than upon which they disagree.
 
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Rescued One

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Thanks for your input, Skylark. I think you're right about there being more upon which Christians agree than upon which they disagree.

The divide between non-LDS teachings and LDS teachings is very, very wide in my opinion.
 
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Rescued One

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Don't be afraid... they were misinformed missionaries.
Well we need to straighten something out here. It appears that you do not understand what agency is, from the LDS perspective anyway. Inherent in agency is the ability to choose good from evil, but that is not the definition of agency:
Agency: The ability and privilege God gives people to choose and to act for themselves. Agency
And the first scriptural reference under this heading happens to be regarding Adam's agency in the garden:Of every tree thou mayest freely eat, Gen. 2:16 Agency
So I think the missionaries taught you poorly. That is unfortunate, but maybe we can get it straightened out for you here.

Provide a basis for agency? Are they supposed to? I don't see in them any intent to teach specifically about agency. Maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking. Could you clarify or restate?

If Adam and Eve were innocent, not knowing good from evil, then just as young children are not held accountable, neither should their choice in the garden have caused the fall.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, 2 Ne. 2:23

38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
D&C 93:38

And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.
D&C 68:27

By the time you are eight years old, you are able to tell the difference between right and wrong and you are able to choose the right. You are accountable, or responsible, for your choices.
http://lds.org/friend/2000/02/sharing-time-i-am-accountable-for-my-choices?lang=eng

The innocent are not to be condemned with the unjust, D&C 104:7

"We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise."
Russell M. Nelson, “Constancy amid Change,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, 33


Where did Eve and Adam get wisdom?
 
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TasteForTruth

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If Adam and Eve were innocent, not knowing good from evil, then just as young children are not held accountable, neither should their choice in the garden have caused the fall.
That may be your view, but it is not LDS doctrine. You can learn what the LDS church teaches about the Fall at www.lds.org. I recommend reading and understanding all that is taught on the subject, rather than isolating particular teachings and trying to make them say what they don't.
 
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skylark1

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Thanks for your input, Skylark. I think you're right about there being more upon which Christians agree than upon which they disagree.

The divide between non-LDS teachings and LDS teachings is very, very wide in my opinion.

I would like to point out that my comment to which TasteForTruth was responding was in reference to the following comment by TasteForTruth:
Either way, though, it certainly isn't a problem of mine whether you all agree or disagree.​

It was about the views of Calvinists and Arminians, and those who believe only some of their points to be true.

It wasn't about how much LDS and non-LDS teachings do or do not have in common, or how wide the divide is between them. :)
 
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TasteForTruth

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I would like to point out that my comment to which TasteForTruth was responding was in reference to the following comment by TasteForTruth:
Either way, though, it certainly isn't a problem of mine whether you all agree or disagree.
It was about the views of Calvinists and Arminians, and those who believe only some of their points to be true.

It wasn't about how much LDS and non-LDS teachings do or do not have in common, or how wide the divide is between them. :)
Good clarification. Thanks.
 
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HenryPorter

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It seems that you have stated several conditions to your protocols for determining what constitutes a "weighted" post.

I am asking for clairifacation concerning the conditions you posted.

From what I read in the Bible, God says exactly what He means, be it in scripture, or thru His spokesmen ( Prophets, Apostles, Evangalists, Pastors, and Teachers)

You bring in the notions of orginial and composite context. This is a non biblical concept.

Would you please respond to the specific question I have asked you on a one by one basis?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:24)
God said exactly what he means, right? Man is justified by works and faith, right? God said this through a spokesman, right?

Do you have your answer yet?

Actually, i do not have your answer yet

i have re-posted the question for your convience

It seems that you have stated several conditions to your protocols for determining what constitutes a "weighted" post.

I am asking for clairifacation concerning the conditions you posted.


From what I read in the Bible, God says exactly what He means, be it in scripture, or thru His spokesmen ( Prophets, Apostles, Evangalists, Pastors, and Teachers)


You bring in the notions of orginial and composite context. This is a non biblical concept.


Would you please respond to the specific question I have asked you on a one by one basis?


Please elaborate on the non-biblical concept of "orginial and composite context" you introduced this notion to the thread, please clairify what you mean

I notice you have mined an isolated prooftext to support your theology of a works bassed salvation

Perhaps we ought to take a look at what God inspired another Apostle to write to us:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(Ephesians 2 :4-10)

The Apostle clearly states twice that it is by "grace" and clearly tells us that it is NOT of works, that we are saved, but we are susposed to be doing the works anyway

I dont know if you have a job or not, but if you do have a job, do you think your boss is going to throw a party with cake, and paper hats, and noise makers and have the rest of the workforce gather around you and sing "For He's A Jolly Good Fellow" just because you show up for work on time?

I think not
(If so, I want to work where you work)

The reason they probally dont do this is becasue showing up on time is expected of you. It is the bare minimum requirement for holding a job. It is what we are susposed to be doing anyway

Doing various "works" is much the same, it is what is expected of you.

Dont forget that even the heathens will be judged according to their works.

Thanks to the Blood that Jesus Christ poured out on Golgotha, and not by my works, I wont be subject to judgement

Oh, and please, dont forget to elaborate on this "orginial and composite context" theory you have
 
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HenryPorter

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Originally Posted by HenryPorter
It seems that you have stated several conditions to your protocols for determining what constitutes a "weighted" post.

I am asking for clairifacation concerning the conditions you posted.

From what I read in the Bible, God says exactly what He means, be it in scripture, or thru His spokesmen ( Prophets, Apostles, Evangalists, Pastors, and Teachers)

You bring in the notions of orginial and composite context. This is a non biblical concept.

Would you please respond to the specific question I have asked you on a one by one basis?


Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:24)
God said exactly what he means, right? Man is justified by works and faith, right? God said this through a spokesman, right?

Do you have your answer yet?


On a side note:

Another poster is providing quite a large amount of various teaching provided by the LDS.

Do these collective teachings of your church carry some weight other than ones own opinion?
 
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Rescued One

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That may be your view, but it is not LDS doctrine. You can learn what the LDS church teaches about the Fall at www.lds.org. I recommend reading and understanding all that is taught on the subject, rather than isolating particular teachings and trying to make them say what they don't.

I recommend the same to you.
 
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I would like to point out that my comment to which TasteForTruth was responding was in reference to the following comment by TasteForTruth:
Either way, though, it certainly isn't a problem of mine whether you all agree or disagree.​

It was about the views of Calvinists and Arminians, and those who believe only some of their points to be true.

It wasn't about how much LDS and non-LDS teachings do or do not have in common, or how wide the divide is between them. :)

I understood that.
 
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Rescued One

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Fall of Adam

In the Garden of Eden, God commanded, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Moses 3:16–17). Because Adam and Eve transgressed this command and partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were cast out from the presence of the Lord (see D&C 29:40–41). In other words, they experienced spiritual death. They also became mortal—subject to physical death. This spiritual and physical death is called the Fall.
Fall of Adam

6And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,

29 Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;
Moses 4

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
Moses 5

26 And the Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.


28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And the Gods said: Behold, we will give them every herb bearing seed that shall come upon the face of all the earth, and every tree which shall have fruit upon it; yea, the fruit of the tree yielding seed to them we will give it; it shall be for their meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, behold, we will give them life, and also we will give to them every green herb for meat, and all these things shall be thus organized.

31 And the Gods said: We will do everything that we have said, and organize them; and behold, they shall be very obedient. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and they numbered the sixth time.
Abraham 4


Elder Bruce R. McConkie made this statement about free agency:

“Four great principles must be in force if there is to be agency: 1. Laws must exist, laws ordained by an Omnipotent power, laws which can be obeyed or disobeyed; 2. Opposites must exist—good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong—that is, there must be an opposition, one force pulling … the other. 3. A knowledge of good and evil must be had by those who are to enjoy the agency, that is, they must know the difference between the opposites; and 4. An unfettered power of choice must prevail.
Using Our Free Agency

Adam and Eve knew God personally. They saw him and talked with him. They were taught the gospel of Jesus Christ even in that early time—which was long before the Lord’s earthly ministry, for Jesus had been appointed to be the Savior during our premortal existence.

The plan of salvation, therefore, was instituted among these first human beings, Adam and Eve and their children. Angels taught them. The family believed. They were baptized and began to serve God. (See Moses 5.)

The scriptures say that as Adam tilled the ground and cared for the cattle and the sheep, Eve “did labor with him” (Moses 5:1).

They were highly intelligent people, not at all like either the hominids or
the cavemen some claim the first humans to have been. They were well educated, having been taught by the Lord himself. What an education! What an instructor!

Think of it, and remember that “the glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, light and truth” (D&C 93:36). These gifts were imparted to Adam and Eve and their family. No one else could teach them, because they were the first human beings. That task was left to the Lord and his angels.

Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters. Among them were Seth and Abel, faithful to the Lord in all their ways. And then there was Cain!

They taught their children to read and write, “having a language which was pure and undefiled,” given them by God (see Moses 6:6).

“And a book of remembrance was kept” among them, recorded in the language of Adam, and all who called upon God were allowed to write in this pure and undefiled tongue, by the spirit of inspiration (see Moses 6:5–6).

“And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Moses 5:58).

“And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters” (Moses 5:3).

It was a glorious period—until Satan came among them. That evil person defied the teachings of God and said to the children of Adam, “Believe it not,” and from that time some of the family loved Satan more than God (see Moses 5:13). They apostatized from the truth.

The Church of Jesus Christ was well established in the time of Adam (see Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938, pp. 157, 169). Men like Seth and Enos grew to become the early patriarchs of the Church, and through them a long line of priesthood leaders was established.

Adam held the keys of the First Presidency and stood directly after the Savior in authority (see Teachings, p. 168). He received those keys in the Creation, according to the Prophet Joseph Smith, who added, “Christ is the Great High Priest; Adam next” (Teachings, pp. 157–58).

Who was Adam that he was privileged to begin the human race here on earth? Had he been some very special personage in the premortal world?

Indeed, Adam was very special and very important. Before coming into mortality, he was known as Michael. The Prophet Joseph Smith clearly identifies both Adam and Michael as one and the same person, an angel, the chief angel, or archangel, of heaven, the special servant of God and Christ.
Adam, the Archangel

Yes, I frequently visit lds.org.
 
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TasteForTruth

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Fall of Adam

In the Garden of Eden, God commanded, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Moses 3:16–17). Because Adam and Eve transgressed this command and partook of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were cast out from the presence of the Lord (see D&C 29:40–41). In other words, they experienced spiritual death. They also became mortal—subject to physical death. This spiritual and physical death is called the Fall.
Fall of Adam

6And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,

29 Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth from the Garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken;
Moses 4

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.
Moses 5

26 And the Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.

28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And the Gods said: Behold, we will give them every herb bearing seed that shall come upon the face of all the earth, and every tree which shall have fruit upon it; yea, the fruit of the tree yielding seed to them we will give it; it shall be for their meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, behold, we will give them life, and also we will give to them every green herb for meat, and all these things shall be thus organized.

31 And the Gods said: We will do everything that we have said, and organize them; and behold, they shall be very obedient. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and they numbered the sixth time.
Abraham 4


Elder Bruce R. McConkie made this statement about free agency:

“Four great principles must be in force if there is to be agency: 1. Laws must exist, laws ordained by an Omnipotent power, laws which can be obeyed or disobeyed; 2. Opposites must exist—good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong—that is, there must be an opposition, one force pulling … the other. 3. A knowledge of good and evil must be had by those who are to enjoy the agency, that is, they must know the difference between the opposites; and 4. An unfettered power of choice must prevail.
Using Our Free Agency

Adam and Eve knew God personally. They saw him and talked with him. They were taught the gospel of Jesus Christ even in that early time—which was long before the Lord’s earthly ministry, for Jesus had been appointed to be the Savior during our premortal existence.

The plan of salvation, therefore, was instituted among these first human beings, Adam and Eve and their children. Angels taught them. The family believed. They were baptized and began to serve God. (See Moses 5.)

The scriptures say that as Adam tilled the ground and cared for the cattle and the sheep, Eve “did labor with him” (Moses 5:1).

They were highly intelligent people, not at all like either the hominids or
the cavemen some claim the first humans to have been. They were well educated, having been taught by the Lord himself. What an education! What an instructor!

Think of it, and remember that “the glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, light and truth” (D&C 93:36). These gifts were imparted to Adam and Eve and their family. No one else could teach them, because they were the first human beings. That task was left to the Lord and his angels.

Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters. Among them were Seth and Abel, faithful to the Lord in all their ways. And then there was Cain!

They taught their children to read and write, “having a language which was pure and undefiled,” given them by God (see Moses 6:6).

“And a book of remembrance was kept” among them, recorded in the language of Adam, and all who called upon God were allowed to write in this pure and undefiled tongue, by the spirit of inspiration (see Moses 6:5–6).

“And thus the Gospel began to be preached, from the beginning, being declared by holy angels sent forth from the presence of God, and by his own voice, and by the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Moses 5:58).

“And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters” (Moses 5:3).

It was a glorious period—until Satan came among them. That evil person defied the teachings of God and said to the children of Adam, “Believe it not,” and from that time some of the family loved Satan more than God (see Moses 5:13). They apostatized from the truth.

The Church of Jesus Christ was well established in the time of Adam (see Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938, pp. 157, 169). Men like Seth and Enos grew to become the early patriarchs of the Church, and through them a long line of priesthood leaders was established.

Adam held the keys of the First Presidency and stood directly after the Savior in authority (see Teachings, p. 168). He received those keys in the Creation, according to the Prophet Joseph Smith, who added, “Christ is the Great High Priest; Adam next” (Teachings, pp. 157–58).

Who was Adam that he was privileged to begin the human race here on earth? Had he been some very special personage in the premortal world?

Indeed, Adam was very special and very important. Before coming into mortality, he was known as Michael. The Prophet Joseph Smith clearly identifies both Adam and Michael as one and the same person, an angel, the chief angel, or archangel, of heaven, the special servant of God and Christ.Adam, the Archangel

Yes, I frequently visit lds.org.
Great! Now you just need to start understanding what you read there, rather than just collect quotes that you believe support your CF agenda. :thumbsup:

And as for your bolded ditty, mortal men can cause people to do things too:
For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. (Isaiah 9:16)
Bummer for those who were destroyed! Too bad they couldnt' choose for themselves—they probably would have told their leaders to take a hike, had they had the power to choose. :doh:
 
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Rescued One

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Great! Now you just need to start understanding what you read there, rather than just collect quotes that you believe support your CF agenda. :thumbsup:

And as for your bolded ditty, mortal men can cause people to do things too:
For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed. (Isaiah 9:16)
Bummer for those who were destroyed! Too bad they couldnt' choose for themselves—they probably would have told their leaders to take a hike, had they had the power to choose. :doh:


SilenceisGolden-1.jpg
 
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6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.
Moses 4

28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,
Moses 4


Eve was beguiled by the serpent and Satan. Adam also partook of the forbidden fruit. It was after eating the fruit that man knew good and evil. If he had the light of Christ before the Fall, that light was not sufficient to show him the difference between good and evil.
 
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TasteForTruth

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup
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You haven't shown that there was grace in premortality.
Uh... acutally, I have. I have shown through the scriptures, church teachings, and statements from general authorities, that agency was both a gift—an act of grace... unmerited favor... an unearned blessing, etc.—and was given to man at his spirit birth.


But rather than acknowledge this, you have chosen to try a "what if" tactic, suggesting that, as in other areas in the standard works, the word "gift" actually refers to a reward offered on conditions of obedience:

A gift, in Mormonism, is something that can be earned. It is a blessing. Correct choices equal blessings. Highlighting the word gave doesn't change anything. The LDS say God gave them blessings, yet the blessing had to earned. The wages of obedience in Mormonism appears to be blessings. Choices bring consequences or blessings.
OK, I'm an open-minded guy. So let's run with your idea and see where it goes. You say that God gave the blessing of agency to man, but that the blessing had to be earned. That requires obedience, as you say. Obedience requires agency. So, now that we have established your position... that agency was given to man as a result of obedience—an exercise of agency—the question I immediately asked after the post quoted above was nothing more than a reiteration of your position:

So, you are saying that God gave man his ability to choose as a reward for choosing to obey... is that correct?

And we get this response:

What?!? Nope?!?! I restate your own position and you tell me that it's not your position? :scratch:

And now you tell me, after providing zero substantiation of that position beyond your own views, and also after contradicting yourself... that I haven't shown that there was grace in the premortal realm? :confused:

Well, we can't have this, can we? I mean, this is no way to have a discussion—self-contradiction and fly-in-the-face-of-truth claims! But, you must have some legitimate reason for taking a position and then saying that it's not your position, right? If you first say that agency was given to man on the principle of obedience, and then disagree with yourself, it must be because agency was given to man upon some other principle. Hence my follow-up question:

Then upon what principle did these spirits obtain their agency from God?

But, sadly, this question has gone unanswered. And, after attempting to change the subject to other things, you appear to have no plans to answer it. Instead you have have fallen back to telling me I haven't shown what I have shown.

But, I'd like to offer you another opportunity to answer the question. Therefore, if man was given agency because he was obedient (your position), but you don't agree with your own position ("Nope" post), then...
...upon what principle did these spirits obtain their agency from God?

Thanks in advance for a direct reply to this very simple question. :thumbsup:

Bump.
 
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TasteForTruth

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Actually, i do not have your answer yet

i have re-posted the question for your convience




Please elaborate on the non-biblical concept of "orginial and composite context" you introduced this notion to the thread, please clairify what you mean
You believe it to be an unbiblical concept? Well, if so, then why should I bother to explain it?
I notice you have mined an isolated prooftext to support your theology of a works bassed salvation
Perhaps we ought to take a look at what God inspired another Apostle to write to us:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(Ephesians 2 :4-10)

The Apostle clearly states twice that it is by "grace" and clearly tells us that it is NOT of works, that we are saved, but we are susposed to be doing the works anyway

I dont know if you have a job or not, but if you do have a job, do you think your boss is going to throw a party with cake, and paper hats, and noise makers and have the rest of the workforce gather around you and sing "For He's A Jolly Good Fellow" just because you show up for work on time?

I think not
(If so, I want to work where you work)

The reason they probally dont do this is becasue showing up on time is expected of you. It is the bare minimum requirement for holding a job. It is what we are susposed to be doing anyway

Doing various "works" is much the same, it is what is expected of you.

Dont forget that even the heathens will be judged according to their works.

Thanks to the Blood that Jesus Christ poured out on Golgotha, and not by my works, I wont be subject to judgement

Oh, and please, dont forget to elaborate on this "orginial and composite context" theory you have
Pass.
 
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TasteForTruth

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On a side note:

Another poster is providing quite a large amount of various teaching provided by the LDS.

Do these collective teachings of your church carry some weight other than ones own opinion?
Of course they do, when used properly in both their immediate context and within the context of the composite that is the gospel.

In other words, 1+1=1, whereas 1+0=0.
 
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I apologize for jumping into this so late, but the words that I bolded prompted me to respond to this.

I believe that "agency" or free will is compatable with biblical theology. I do not believe that biblical theology is only reasonable if man does not have agency. I am not sure if bbbbbbb has reversed his position, if he distiguishes between agency and free will, or if there has been a misunderstanding. Anyway, since the comment was made that if any Christians disagree with the comment at the end of the first post that they would speak up and respond to the post, I thought that I would offer my two cents.

I also wanted to add that although there is disagreement between the Calvinist, Arminian, and somewhere in between theological positions, I think that there is much more unity between Christians who differ in these beliefs than there is disunity. Although there can be some lively debates on internet boards about this, there is much more that we agree on, than disagree.

Thanks, Skylark, for your post. I have not reversed my position. My position is that in regard to salvation God has chosen His elect from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4,5). That means the He chose us long before we could have had any agency or free will to choose Him. We are dead in our transgressions and sins (Ephesians 2) so that it is by his grace through faith that He saves us. Dead people do you have agency or free will.

That said, we do exercise our will to serve God and to do good works. When we are regenerated by God and come to faith we are capable of producing good works. Prior to that time all of our good works are as filty rags in God's sight (Isaiah 64:6). We are not the author and perfecter of our faith; Jesus Christ is (Hebrews 12:2).
 
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