Antichrist

Revelation 14:6-12 · May 30, 2011

(U) It would "sitteth in" [English: in; Greek: heis; towards or among] "the Temple of God" [1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16], "shewing himself that he is God", ruling over the people of God [2 Thessalonians 2:4], claiming to be of God, yet it is a "son of perdition" [2 Thessalonians 2:3], just as "Judas" was [John 17:12], coming in "sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" [Mark 7:15]

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

It would "as God sitteth in the temple of God".

"Sitteth" in, towards/among the Temple of God. In a previous study we have already seen that the Temple of God is not a "building" in the physical modern day land of Israel/Palestine, but rather it is a people, His people, the Christians:

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16

1 Corinthians 3:9,16,17, 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12; John 2:21

We have already seen this, where this "personage" is seated, high upon a "White Throne", by which Two Golden Cherubims are to his Left and to his Right, just as the Shekinah Glory was seated above the Ark [symbolizing the Throne of God] and 2 Golden Cherubim, one to the Left and one to the Right:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XutvOfOj_Dw/SkfZRpo86lI/AAAAAAAAAhY/nGq-LItuIvs/s1600-h/9.jpg

..and we have seen the "other" placed in this position as well, and we will see who this "other" actually is later:

http://www.sanctuaryofthedivinemercy.org/resources/headers/default-header.jpg

However, besides a mere physical manifestation of this position merely sitting upon a throne, there is ever so much more to this "sitteth", for this power would "as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God":

It shall be shown that the position of the pope "as God sitteth" over the "temple of God" in "ex cathedra" [Latin: "from the Chair" or "throne" (Thronos))], in "all things" of "doctrine" and "faith and morals":

"Cathedra; (1) The chair or throne (thronos) of a bishop in his cathedral church, on which he presides at solemn functions. ... A good idea of the arrangement may be had from the catacomb frescoes representing Christ seated on a throne surrounded by the apostles ... By a definition "ex cathedra" is meant a formal infallible decision of the pope, obligatory on all the faithful. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Cathedra] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03437a.htm

"The chief church of a diocese, in which the bishop has his throne (cathedra) and close to which is his residence; it is, properly speaking, the bishop's church, wherein he presides, teaches, and conducts worship for the whole Christian community. The word is derived from the Greek kathedra through the Latin cathedra, throne, elevated seat. In early ecclesiastical literature it always conveyed the idea of authority. ... the cathedra was the principal symbol of authority. ... The word cathedra, so expressive in the language of antiquity, has gradually been replaced in liturgical usage, by throne (thronus) or seat (sedes). ... ... Metaphors apart, the bishop receives his cathedral as his "title" (titulus) or right; he is its governor (rector) and its head. He should take possession of it by a solemn entrance into his episcopal city and by the ceremony of enthronement (inthronisatio) as prescribed in the Roman Pontifical and the "Caeremoniale Episcoporum", (I, c. ii) in so far, at least, as custom will permit.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Cathedral] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03438a.htm

"Literally “from the chair”, a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: “We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.”" [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Ex Cathedra] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm

Let us see that closer...

""from the chair" ... signifies ... authoritative teaching given by the Roman Pontiff ... when he speaks ex cathedra ... in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme ... authority ... is possesed of that infallibility ... in defining doctrine ... in faith or morals ... are of themselves and not ... irreformable." [quoted/sourced above]

"Morals" deals with God's Divine and Spiritual Law, especially his Ten Commandments.

For sin is the transgression of the Law [1 John 3:4].

In speaking also of "Faith", in what we are to truly "believe".

For whatsoever is not of Faith is sin [Romans 14:23].

This 'papal position' claims power over Divine Spiritual Law and Faith and to interpret, change, alter, modify, abrogate, even to dispense with all things, etc, even as we shall see, the very precepts of Christ Jesus Himself.

This 'power' claims to be of God, wears the outer garments of the sheep, and claims to follow Christ Jesus [it claims to be Christian], yet we see it is a "son of perdition" and instead is setting itself over the whole Temple of God [yea, the very people of God Himself], ruling from a Throne and "as God sitteth" [in "ex cathedra"] over them, even having its own "morals and faith".

"2035 The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.77" [Roman Catholic Online Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION ONE MAN'S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT; CHAPTER THREE GOD'S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE; ARTICLE 3 THE CHURCH, MOTHER AND TEACHER; I. MORAL LIFE AND THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P74.HTM

"2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78" [Roman Catholic Online Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION ONE MAN'S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT; CHAPTER THREE GOD'S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE; ARTICLE 3 THE CHURCH, MOTHER AND TEACHER; I. MORAL LIFE AND THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE CHURCH] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P74.HTM

"... 30. Papa tantae est auctoritatis et potestatis, ut possit quoque leges divinas modificare, declarare, vel interpretari … Hinc dicimus, quod Papa potest contra legem divinam aliquando venire limitando, declarando, etc., … Papa ius divinum potest modificare, cum eius potestas non sit ex homine, sex ex Deo, et in terris Dei vices fungitur cum amplissima potestate oves suas ligandi et solvendi … Papa potest interpretari, et ex causa limitare ius divinum, ut tradunt communiter omnes …” [pg. 45]

"... 30. The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he may even modify, declare or interpret divine laws... Hence it is said, that the pope can declare against [in opposition to] the divine law, by limiting at any time, or declaring, etc., ... the pope can modify divine law, since his own power is not of man, but of [from] God, and acts as the vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power over his sheep by binding and loosing... the pope by intent [reason] can interpret and limit divine law, as they all commonly say..." [pg.45]

1. Papa tantae est dignitatis et celsitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei Vicarius

1. The Pope is of so great dignity and highness, so that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God

14. Imo Romani Pontificis excellentia et potestas, nedum est circa coelestia, terrestria et infernalia, sed etiam super angelos, quorum ipse maior est.

14. Indeed, of the Roman Pontiff and the power of the excellence of that, not only to heavenly things, earthly and infernal, but also over the angels, of which he himself is the greater.

16. Papa tantae est dignitatis et potestatis, ut faciat unum et idem tribunal cum Christo.

16. The Pope is of so great dignity and power, that he forms one and the same tribunal with Christ.

41. Decreta, quae edit Papa ex cathedra circa doctrinam fidei et morum, sunt infallibilia.

41. Decrees, which are published [pronounced] by the Pope, in ex cathedra about doctrine in [and of] faith and morals, are infallible.

[Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”; Prompta Bibliotheca Vol. 6; "P-R", “Papa”, Article 2; pg 41 → ] - http://books.google.com/books?id=uJ8sAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Prompta+Bibliotheca%22#v=onepage&q&f=false

Revelation 14:6-12 · May 30, 2011

(W) It is also classified in whole as a "woman", the "MOTHER OF HARLOTS" [harlot daughters, at are in some way like her] that came from her and carry her teachings [Revelation 17:5] and "she" commits "fornication" with the "Kings of the Earth" [Revelation 17:2, 18:3,9].

A "woman" in Prophecy, typologically/symbolically is the "people of God", namely His Church.

A Faithful Woman: Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27; Revelation 12:1,6; etc.

I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate [woman]. Jeremiah 6:2

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Revelation 12:1

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. Revelation 12:6

An Unfaithful Woman: Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hosea 2:5; 3:1; Revelation 17:2, 18:3,9; etc.

But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. Ezekiel 16:15

For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give [me] my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink. Hosea 2:5

With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Revelation 17:2

A "daughter" of any "priest" [such as Christ Jesus, our Great High Priest; Hebrews 4:14] who profaned herself by being a "harlot"/"harlot", was considered as profaning her "father" [as our Heavenly Father], and her punishment was to be burned with fire:

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. Leviticus 21:9

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: Revelation 17:1

And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Revelation 17:5

For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. Revelation 19:2

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Revelation 17:16

The Roman Catholic Church in its dogmas claims to be the very "MOTHER" of all Christians, and is over all the other churches [her "daughters"]:

“It must be always clear that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not the sister, but the mother of all the churches.”, “It's evident that it would go against the faith to consider the [Catholic] church as 'one' way of salvation 'alongside' those represented by other religions.” - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger [later Pope Benedict XVI]; Article “Other churches are no sisters of ours, the Vatican insists”, by Lloyd Rundle, Monday, 4 September 2000] - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ters-of-ours--the-vatican-insists-699556.html

“The term Mother Church, however, as applied to Rome, has a special significance as indicating its headship of all churches.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Filial (meaning daughter) Church] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06072a.htm

“The expression “Church of Rome”, it should be noted, though commonly applied by non-Catholics to the whole Catholic body, can only be used correctly in this secondary sense for the local diocese (or possibly the province) of Rome, mother and mistress of all Churches.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "L"; Latin Church]- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09022a.htm

“...11. Therefore Holy Mother Church, supported by these truths, while again recommending to the faithful the practice of indulgences as something very dear to the Christian people during the course of many centuries and in our days as well--this is proven by experience--does not in any way intend to diminish the value of other means of sanctification and purification, first and foremost among which are the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments, particularly the Sacrament of Penance. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Library; Indulgentarium Doctrina; Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences; His Holiness Pope Paul VI; Promulgated on January 1, 1967] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm

"...These truths, so generally accepted and put into practice by the faithful, indicate how zealously the Roman Church, mother and teacher of all Churches, has continued to teach this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin. Yet the more important actions of the Church deserve to be mentioned in detail. For such dignity and authority belong to the Church that she alone is the center of truth and of Catholic unity. It is the Church in which alone religion has been inviolably preserved and from which all other Churches must receive the tradition of the Faith.[3]

The same Roman Church, therefore, desired nothing more than by the most persuasive means to state, to protect, to promote and to defend the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. This fact is most clearly shown to the whole world by numerous and significant acts of the Roman Pontiffs, our predecessors. To them, in the person of the Prince of the Apostles, were divinely entrusted by Christ our Lord, the charge and supreme care and the power of feeding the lambs and sheep; in particular, of confirming their brethren, and of ruling and governing the universal Church." [Roman Catholic Online Library; Ineffabilis Deus; Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi09id.htm

"...46. Now, our holy Mother the Church is indeed the mother "of all nations, of all peoples, as well as of individual persons; nowhere is she a stranger; she lives or at least, by her very nature, ought to live among every people."[22] Further, and this must be stressed, none of those things that pertain to the Church, our Mother, is foreign to any individual Christian, nor ought it to be so. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Library; Fidei Donum; His Holiness Pope Pius XII Encyclical on the Present Condition of the Catholic Missions, Especially in Africa April 21, 1957]- http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12fd.htm

"...2. This general joy was most pleasing and gratifying to Us; but what We valued therein most was the agreement of sentiment and the universal testimony to religion which it displayed. For the unanimous consent of well-wishers expressed this fact clearly, that in all places the minds and hearts of all were devoted to the Vicar of Christ, that men looked with confidence to the Apostolic See, in the midst of its misfortunes, as to an ever-springing and pure fount of salvation; and that in every land where the Catholic religion flourishes the Roman Church, mother and mistress of all Churches, is duly reverenced, as it should be, with one mind and heart. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Library; Exeunte Iam Anno; On the Right Ordering of Christian Life; His Holiness Pope Leo XIII; December 25, 1888] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_le13ei.htm

This Roman Catholic Church, is both Religious and Political, it is both a Church and a State ["diverse from the first"; Daniel 7:23], as it claims to wield both the Spiritual and the Temporal, and in each to rule by "Divine Authority" over all, and which the "pope" is its "head", "eyes" and "mouth".

"Vatican City is an ecclesiastical[5] or sacerdotal-monarchical[6] state, ruled by the Bishop of Rome—the Pope. The highest state functionaries are all Catholic clergymen of various national origins. It is the sovereign territory of the Holy See (Sancta Sedes) and the location of the Pope's residence, referred to as the Apostolic Palace. ... The government of Vatican City has a unique structure. The Pope is the sovereign of the state. ... Nevertheless, the pope has full and absolute executive, legislative and judicial power over Vatican City. He is currently the only absolute monarch in Europe. ... Vatican City State is a recognised national territory under international law, but it is the Holy See that conducts diplomatic relations on its behalf, in addition to the Holy See's own diplomacy, entering into international agreements in its regard." [Wikipedia; Vatican City] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

She has commited fornication with the Kings of the Earth, as she has done in the past, and the earth is filled with the wine of her fornication:

http://seeker401.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/pope.jpg?w=378

http://communio.stblogs.org/2011/01/popes-state-of-the-world-addre.html#more

http://im.rediff.com/news/2009/jul/09sld1.jpg

stinsonmarri · May 30, 2011

Revelation 14:6-12:

I think the reason why no one else is responding to your presentation is because it is too much. Your topic is about the false messiah but you go into providing a thesis. It is the major document and beliefs of SDA and I was raise in the Church but I differ with them base on Daniel Chapter Eleven and Twelve, Rev Chapter Four through Nineteen.

The Bible is very clear that there are two foes because history repeats itself. When the little horn plucked up three horns this story about the Papacy was very significant. It was a Catholic priest who did not agreed with the majority and almost wiped out Catholicism. It will happen again only the role will be reverse. The beast/man is not the pope but he was a Catholic because the pope was riding him. Also you cannot use the dream of Nebuchadnezzar because he was a heathen king learning truth. Daniel visions deal with pagan religions that united under the Catholic Church. The fourth beast was totally different according to the Bible. It was a combination of all the seven empires religions' under the Catholic Church! The beast will turn against the Catholic Church and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit because of his former belief. He will join with Satan and take over his angels for a short period of time.

Jerusalem has been totally destroy twice and it will be destroyed the third and final time and she is named Babylon. The Papacy, Protestants and the Jews will unite and rebuild the Temple this will bring on both the wrath of Yahweh and Yashua, the Lamb and the first four Trumpets will start the Time of Trouble!

Yashua open the all the seals that deals with sealing souls during four periods of time and the horses represents the earth. From the Middle Ages until the 144,000 and the great multitude are seal comes under the fifth and sixth seal. During the sixth seal the Time of Trouble will begin and others who have been faithful will die but not the 144,000 they are coming in the power and spirit of Elijah to finish the work and to bring in the great multitude during the time of the world worst history. People from all religions of the earth will accept Yahweh's word. The beast/man will return with Satan's angels and first torture for five months. After the Papacy and his followers will war with the beast and his followers. The USA is the false prophet and he will have the other people to make an image that appears to speak and be alive but it is the deception of the devil. It is the devil speaking like he did in the Garden with the serpent and only those who join with the beast/man can buy or sell with his mark. War between him and the Papacy will break out because the Papacy folks do not have the beast mark and need food and so forth. This is Armageddon or WW III and it will be big but like Elijah the remnant will be taken care of. Probation is close the beast/man wins the harlot/Gentile known as the Papacy and his followers are destroyed including Jerusalem. The false prophet (USA) destroys them with a nuclear bomb and Yahweh's angel will finish it with a millstone to prepare for the New Jerusalem.

Revelation Chapter Fourteen explains the complete work of the 144,000 and how they work together as one showing the symbol of man with a crown on a cloud which is not Yashua He have seven crowns! The beast now turns on Yahweh's people as the seven last plagues have already started and then the Father tells the saints the time of His Son's return the wicked do not understand but they try to attack the saints and Yashua with His angels and His power strikes them down dead, take the beast/man and the false prophet and place them in a lake of fire. The rest the birds eats their flesh and they wait for the return of Yashua and the saints to be destroyed along with Satan and his angels.

Read your Bible with what is taking place now with the Middle East because Islam former power is dying to prepare for the "kings of the east," that will join up with the beast after those who accept the truth will come out of false doctrine!!!!!!

Blessings,

stinsonmarri

Revelation 14:6-12 · May 30, 2011

(X) It exists as its own "great city" which sits among "seven mountains" and who is rich, and decked with "precious stones", "gold" and "pearls" and costly array, even "purple" and "scarlet", having a "golden cup in her hand" [Revelation 17:4,9,18, 18:12,16]

Rome, the home of the Vatican, is the City of Seven Hills:

"...The Rome of the Kings was built on seven hills: the Aventine Hill, the Caelian Hill, the Capitoline Hill, the Esquiline Hill, the Palatine Hill, the Quirinal Hill, and the Viminal Hill. ..." [Wikipedia; Rome] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome

"...Near the banks of the Tiber River, 2,700 years ago on seven hills, the foundation of Rome was laid. It is one of the most ancient cities in Europe. ... Rome is the capital city of Italy. Within Rome's enclave is Vatican City. The seat of the papacy of the Roman Catholic Church ... According to tradition, Rome was founded in 753 b.c. on one of the Seven Hills, a term coined to describe the Capitoline, Quirinal, Viminal, Esquiline, Caelian, Aventine, and Palatine hills surrounding the old community. ... First headquarters of the Roman Empire, and then of the Catholic Church, Rome has had an immense impact on social customs throughout the world. ... For a while, Rome was reduced to a few thousand residents and little power. But the next couple centuries uncovered a newfound strength. The growing importance of the papacy revived the city and rejuvenated its power. ... By the sixteenth century, the Catholic Church had accumulated extensive wealth and was therefore criticized by other reformed religions. Displays of grandeur and extravagance by the papal court contrasted vividly with the poverty of the people." [Online Encyclopedia; Junior Worldmark Encyclopedia of World Cities (2000); Rome] - http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Rome.aspx#1

The Roman Catholic Church is worth untold billions in gold, silver, precious stones, artifacts, historical records, lands, titles, man-power, etc.

Untold Wealth, much gold, pearls, wearing Purple and Scarlet [Bishops and Cardinals], also symbols of royalty and sin:

http://biblelight.net/pius-ix-chalice-jp2.jpg

http://biblelight.net/TiaraPiusIX-2.jpg

http://www.catholicbible101.com/altar-at-vatican-ii1.gif

http://brendans-island.com/blogsource/20101015ff/triregno.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6dKQTchkJaA/SMXF_3VjpjI/AAAAAAAAGDg/x6bosX3powE/S1600-R/Cathedra+Petri.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c305/benodette/june 2006/Spring 2007/august 07/consist4.jpg

http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages2/a022ht_vatican-ring-thumb.jpg

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/17/papa.jpg

http://www.dioceseofgreensburg.org/Blog/adl/Lists/Photos/Chair of Peter/chair2.jpg

"... In addition to being the worlds oldest, largest, most powerful and most influential politico-ecclesiastical institution, the Roman Church-State may also be the worlds wealthiest. Certainly, considered merely as a church, it is the worlds wealthiest institution; only the assets of a handful of civil governments might surpass its massive wealth. It is very difficult to ascertain the assets of the Roman Church-State; the organization does not report its holdings to anyone, including its members, [pg 9->10] and researchers who have endeavored to discover its riches have found no limits to them, only their ability to see the horizon. According to Canon Law, the control of all property of the Roman Church-State belongs to the pope, its supreme emperor. That property includes tens of thousands of buildings; millions of acres of land; tons of gold, silver, and precious stones; art collections; rare documents; and millions of shares in business corporations throughout the globe. ..." [John W. Robbins: Ecclesiastical Megalomania, Preface pg. 9-10]

"Can. 1273 By virtue of his primacy of governance, the Roman Pontiff is the supreme administrator and steward of all ecclesiastical goods." [Roman Catholic Canon Law Online; BOOK V. THE TEMPORAL GOODS OF THE CHURCH LIBER V. DE BONIS ECCLESIAE TEMPORALIBUS; TITLE II. THE ADMINISTRATION OF GOODS (Cann. 1273 - 1289)] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P4R.HTM

This Apostate power is Babylon 'herself':

Babylon [hath been] a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. - Jeremiah 51:7

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: - Revelation 17:4

Peter, himself, directly shows where spiritual Babylon is, it was located in Rome:

The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son. - 1 Peter 5:13

"...As to the Babylon from which Peter writes, and in which Mark is present with him, there can be no reasonable doubt that it is Rome. ...
The view of St. Jerome: "St. Peter also mentions this Mark in his First Epistle, while referring figuratively to Rome under the title of Babylon" (Illustrious Men 8), is supported by all the early Father who refer to the subject." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "M"; "St. Mark; Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York.] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09672c.htm

An Apostate [Harlot] Woman [Church] in Rome, the City of Seven Hills. [Spiritual Babylon]

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies , even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. - 2 Peter 2:1

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. - Matthew 7:15

This power is claiming to be Christian, and outwardly appears to be promoting it, but inwardly, by their doctrines are very dangerous.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. - Acts 20:29

Paul even reminds them of what was to come and when it would happen...

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? - 2 Thessalonians 2:5

bendslikeawillow · May 30, 2011

Wow, great thread.

stinsonmarri · May 30, 2011

Revelation:

I would advise you to study history along with your Bible. The Catholic church has always wanted to rule Jerusalem and the Bible in Rev Chapters Ten, Seventeen, and Eighteen clearly explains this as well as Daniel Eleven. However let me say this I never called you a negative name. Be carefule how you accuse others with Scriptures calling them false prophets. EGW in TM states clearly how we should study the Bible and she also stated that what we once thought about the Papacy was incorrect. As I stated you can write without so much and someone else advise you also. This was with kindness and love. If you start quoting Scriptures for the purpose of name calling then I will move on but with love.

Blessings
stinsonmarri

EastCoastRemnant · May 31, 2011

stinsonmarri said:
Revelation:

I would advise you to study history along with your Bible. The Catholic church has always wanted to rule Jerusalem and the Bible in Rev Chapters Ten, Seventeen, and Eighteen clearly explains this as well as Daniel Eleven. However let me say this I never called you a negative name. Be carefule how you accuse others with Scriptures calling them false prophets. EGW in TM states clearly how we should study the Bible and she also stated that what we once thought about the Papacy was incorrect. As I stated you can write without so much and someone else advise you also. This was with kindness and love. If you start quoting Scriptures for the purpose of name calling then I will move on but with love.

Blessings
stinsonmarri

Marrion, Rev14 is not accusing you of anything or calling you a false prophet... it is part of his thread on the antichrist. If he had quoted your post, then I would say you would have a point but he didn't and the content is in keping with the theme of this thread.

Also , your view of prophesy, from your own study, is not all agreeable to the pioneer position that most Adventists adhere to. While you certainly have the right to a different perspective from that of accepted SDA understanding, you should realize that it will probably not be openly embraced as new light...

When the power of God testifies to what is truth, the truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after suppositions, contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time, God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise and still another with new light which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John

15
the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard bearers who have fallen in death, are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus [their] voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time. We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {PH020 14.2}

stinsonmarri · May 31, 2011

ECR:

My friend it's good hearing from you but my name is spell Marrian ok! I know I had your handle wrong and I am sorry. It was my understanding that he put this out after my comment however I could be wrong and hope Revelation can forgive me.

I totally disagree with you on that point. The pioneers never stood on traditions until after the church became a denomination. Before they were constantly studying and learning truth but this was stopped and they became lock into positions. Truth will stand for ever if it is truth but not error. I gave you TM pg 105,106, 111-114 Let's look at this statement she made:

There is need of a much closer study of the word of Elohim; especially should Daniel and the Revelation have attention as never before in the history of our work. We may have less to say in some lines, in regard to the Roman power and the papacy. . . TM p. 12

This was written in her late time of life and why do you think that Yashua declare that we think we are rich and need of nothing because of the very words you state: "that most Adventists adhere to." It is not what thus says Yahweh but what men say just like the priest, lawyers, and scribes doing His day. When you became a SDA you believe something else until you learn more of Present Truth. But you feel this:

Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with Elohims word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.

Yahweh often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. Elohim desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth.

The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of Elohim; they were erring mortals like ourselves. Elohim has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM 105, 106

Let start with Dan Chapter Eleven do you honestly think that Yahweh will just focus on Persia, Greece and Rome after they were already discuss in Chapter Seven and Eight? Then jump to Michael standing up for His people in the last days? Here in the last verses of Daniel Chapter Eleven Gabriel speaks of two kings and they first are together but later become enemies. The latter one ends up planting his palace between Yahweh's holy mountain and he also desert Elohim period. Then look at Dan Chapter twelve the angel standing with His hand up give a specific time of 3 1/2 years during the Time of Trouble. Gabriel also tell Daniel that when you see the daily (Covenant) taken away and the abomination that make desolate set up he then provide numbers of days. Now Revelation is Daniel revealed is it not I know that it is! It explains very clear in Chapter Eleven those saved and those not saved but again there are two foes. I just can't understand why you do not see this! The first group is call Gentiles and I know you think this mean heathens but it does not. Once again words have been corrupted to hide the truth. The Bible in the nations of people located in Gen 10:5 call one people this name Greek speaking people or the Papacy because they are the ones who started the Catholic Church! Do you see any letter from Paul from any other people but the Greeks and the Romans? Other nations were around read Acts 2:7-11 and Afrika was around as well!

Now the Bible also mentions the holy city would be treaded underfoot as well. Here is the 144,000 doing exactly what Elijah did during his day and Moses in Egypt. All these plagues taken place and the Pope is where he always wanted to be in Jerusalem. Do you think that this city is holy now I lived there and it is not! All type of Christianity is there for commercial reason it is so corrupt. Isn'y this where they crucified our Savior and Yahweh also called it Sodom as well? Then here comes the beast/man that opposes both the Papacy and the Almighty Ones and takes the word of Yahweh and try to destroy it. Now the two witnesses is Yahweh's word but what also is His word but the Testimony written by Him! The ark of the Covenant has never been found and cannot be touch but it will return to it Maker for all to see that His law is forever binding!

In Rev Chapter Seventeen once again it speaks of two foes a woman (Catholic Church), the beast that she is riding. Gabriel tells John the finish story that was given to Daniel. It's all here in this chapter very clear the beast was at one time all seven false religions of the known world empires they all fall. He is the ultimate one the eighth that goes in destruction it says it here in this chapter. Then his reign is brief probation close and if you add 1260 or 3 1/2 years (the period of the Time of Trouble) with two month you get 1,290. Now the Papacy who came out of the Greek speaking people has now become a woman or a Church! This Chapter says the beast has power with men who did not have power before but they do with him now. Then they give him their power he already has Satan power that's what makes him unstoppable it seems. Also that's why Yahweh makes this time short because any longer he could deceive the very elect! The beast hate the woman who he once believed in because he saw through her lies like Malcolm X saw through Elijah Mohammed lies get it! The beast also hates Elohim and join with the devil and he and his people hate her as Yahweh plans for her being a harlot adopting all the false religions and pretending that she love Yahweh!

Finally, Jerusalem in chapter Eighteen who has become Babylon because she is the only one that has killed the prophets! Have you seen any other city in the Bible who killed Elohim's prophets?

Jerusalem is the most highly esteem city in the world and worship as the most holy city on earth! The Middle East is in breaking down for the end time to prepare the kings of the east! The harlot with the Christians and Jews will rebuild the Temple I advise you to realize they have all of the utensils completed and they will build soon. The place will be on the correct site where the most Holy place was and both the wrath of the Father and Son will bring in the Time of Trouble which will be the four Trumpet sounding. I told you before that Islam is a wrench that Satan place as a barrier to stop Yahweh's plan but it not the part of the seven trumpets. Revelation is dealing with the last days and not past history that is Daniel Eleven. The Pope will ride on a white horse to replica Yashua's ride through the Golden Gates but he comes as both Father and Son. He will sit in the Temple first but will be destroyed by the beast along with Jerusalem that has become Babylon. This is her final desolation and she will be replaced by Yashua's city from Heaven! This is Present Truth that has been giving since sin came into this world. You do not have to believe just watch and I hope you will be ready at the proper time because it is close now more than ever!!!

Blessing,

stinsonmarri

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 1, 2011

(H) It would have a "mouth" speaking "[great] words" of "blasphemy" against and in the place of The Most High God [Dn 7:8,25; Rev 13:5-6, 17:5; Jn 10:33; Mk 2:7; Lk 5:21; 1 Tm 1:13, 2:5]

Blasphemy:

Claiming perogatives of God

"... spoken blasphemy ... ye have heard his blasphemy." Mt 26:65 and "... they all condemned him to be guilty of death." Mk 14:64 [context]

"...for blasphemy; ... thou, being a man, makest thyself God." Jn 10:33

Claiming to forgive Sins, which alone belongs to God

"...speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?" Mk 2:27 & "... but God alone?" Lk 5:21

Names of Blasphemy

"...a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy..." Rev 17:3

Religious [in God's name] persecutor

"...a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: ..." 1 Tm 1:3

Hypocrite, God's name in Vain

"...the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan." Rev 2:9

Sins:

...He forgives sin in answer to the observation that God alone can forgive sin (Mark 2:7, 10; Luke 5:21, 24; etc). ... [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; J; The Character Of Jesus Christ; subsection Divinity of Jesus] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08382a.htm

Absolution (Ab = from; solvere = to free) ... the priest ... he frees man from sin. over sin Peter is supreme. implies supreme power both legislative and judicial: power to forgive sins, power to free from sin's penalties. Ego te absolvo...[Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; A; Absolution] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01061a.htm

...the priest has ... the power of delivering sinners from Hell, of making them worthy of Paradise, ... And God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priests, and either not to pardon or to pardon, according as they refuseor give absolution ... Such is, says St. Maximus of Turin, this judiciary power ascribed to Peter that its decision carries with it the decision of God. The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it, writes St. Peter Damian. ... [St. Alphonsus Liguori C.SS.R. Doctor of the Church; Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol. 12, pp. 27; Nihil Obstat. Arthur J. Scanlan, S.T.D., Censor Librorum - Imprimatur. + Patritius Cardinalis Hayes, Archiepiscopus Neo-Eboracensis - Die 24 Mar., 1927 - APPROBATION. - By virtue of the authority granted me by the Most Rev. Patrick Murray, Superior General of the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer, I hereby sanction the publication of the work entitled "DIGNITY AND DUTIES OF THE PRIEST," which is Volume XII of the complete edition in English of the works of St. Alphonsus de Liguori. JAMES BARRON, C.SS.R., Provincial] - http://www.catholictradition.org/Priests/priesthood1-2.htm

Seek where you will, through heaven and earth, and you will find but one created being who can forgive the sinner...That extraordinary being is the priest the Catholic priest. [Michael Muller, The Catholic Priest, page 78] - http://www.archive.org/stream/thecatholicpries00meuluoft#page/78/mode/2up

"The pope's universal coercive jurisdiction... the powers ... are plenary. ... nothing is withheld. ... Peter's authority is subordinated to no earthly superior. ... are to be forthwith ratified in heaven. They do not need the antecedent approval of any other tribunal. ... This judicial authority will even include the power to pardon sin. ... supreme power ... carries with it a supreme magisterium authority to declare that doctrine and to prescribe a rule of faith obligatory on all. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, The Pope] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

Blasphemous names:

All names which in the scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope. [Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (Full Italian name: Roberto Francesco Romolo Bellarmino (Canonized-1930 and Doctor of the Church (Jesuit))), Disputationes de Controversiis (aka: Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei adversus hujus temporis Haereticos) [Lectures Concerning the Controversies of the Christian Faith Against the Heretics of This Time], Tom. 2, Controversia Prima, Book 2 (De Conciliorum Auctoritate)[On Authority of the Councils], Chapter 17, (1628 ed.) Vol. 1, pp. 266-translated]

In Latin: Secundo probatur ratione, in Scripturis fundata; nam omnia nomina, quae in Scripturis tribuuntur Christo, unde constat eum esse supra Ecclesiam, eadem omnia tribuuntur Pontifici. - http://cdigital.dgb.uanl.mx/la/1080015572_C/1080015573_T2/1080015573_21.pdf

"All names" even the "Us, We, and Our".

"3. Papa idem est ac Pater patrum."
"3. The Pope is the Father of Fathers."

[Jesus said, "And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Mt 23:9]

"5. Papa appellatur Sanctissimus, et quare?"
"5. The Pope is called Most Holy, and why?"

"7. Merito solus Papa appellatur nomine Sanctissimi, et quare?"
"7. The Pope alone merits the name Most Holy, and why?"

"8. Papa prae excellentia suae supremae dignitatis vocantur Episcopus Episcoporum."
"8. The Pope by reason of the excellence of his supreme dignity is called the Bishop of Bishops"

[said Peter, Jesus is: "...the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls..." [1 Pt 2:25]]

"3. Hinc Papa idem est ac Pater patrum, ut notat Gloss. Communiter recepta in Prooemio"
"3. Hence the Pope is the same as the Father of fathers, as is noted to the Gloss. It is commonly received in the Foreword"

[Lucius Ferraris, "Prompta Bibliotheca ..." Vol. 6, Papa, Article 2; pg 41-42] - http://books.google.com/books?id=uJ...Bibliotheca"#v=onepage&q=pater patrum&f=false

Perogatives/rights of God alone:

But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.[His Holiness Pope Leo XIII, Sapientiae Christianae, On Christians as Citizens, Encyclical letter, January 10th, 1890; Section 22] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_le13sc.htm also http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13sapie.htm

"Supreme teacher"? Yet Scripture says, "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Jn 14:26

But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, ... [The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter June 20, 1894] -
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

Religious Persecutor, Blasphemer:

"... That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. ..." [History of the Rise and Influence of the spirit of Rationalism in Europe Vol . II [2]; By W.E.H. Lecky, M.A. Revised Edition. In Two Volumes. New York and London; D. Appleton and Company 1919. pp 40; [1.] Llorente, Hist. De l'Inquisition, tom. iv. [4] pp 271,272. "... Llorente ... himself at one time secretary in the Inquisition, and ... had access to all the secret papers of the tribunal, will always be the highest authority. ..."] - http://files.libertyfund.org/files/1667/Lecky_1341.02.pdf

More to come in Letter "E".

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 3, 2011

(R) Another power, which itself had come from, would at first hold it in check in its infancy, but after this other power was "taken out of the way" it would be "revealed" [2 Thessalonians 2:1-12] and shown that it did not remain true to the Gospel [1 John 2:19]

This AntiChrist power would arise out of the 4th Kingdom [Rome, as earlier established] - but revealed only once that 4th Kingdom of Iron became Divided [though it would already be at work before the division], and so this Antichrist power would be associated with Rome and come from it:

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thessalonians 2:6

"time", and what prophecies does Paul know that deal with such "time"? The very prophecies of the Book of Daniel. Paul knew the order of events:

[1.] Babylon [Chaldean]

[2.] Medo-Persia

[3.] Greece [Grecia]

[4.] Rome [Messiah to live, die and resurrect and ascend]

[5.] Rome Divided [10 Horns, Toes]

[6.] Antichrist [11th "Little Horn"] arises in division [10]

[7.] After many events, then 2nd Advent of Christ Jesus.

Paul knew that the Antichrist power was coming, and that even in his day [the days of Rome, the 4th Kingdom] that the "mystery of iniquity" [lawlessness] was already at work:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:7

Again, this shows that Paul verily knew that the Antichrist power that was going to arise [future tense] and was not of the 3rd Kingdom [Greece, therefore not Antiochus Epiphanes IV in any sense]. For this Antichrist power to come was being hindered in his [Paul's day, during the 4th Kingdom] own day, for Paul says, "he who now letteth" [ie., he who now, at this present time, at this very moment, restrains].

Paul also knew that once this Antichrist arose in power, once the restraining power was removed, that it was to remain [though suffer what appeared to be a deadly mortal wound at one point, yet regain] until the very 2nd Advent of Christ Jesus, therefore it was to last for many many hundreds of years:

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Yet before any of those events could take place, Paul had already told the Thessalonian Church that certain events were to occur:

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thessalonians 2:5

There was to be a "falling away" first, a great apostacy from the True and Everlasting Gospel and Faith of Jesus Christ:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

And this Antichrist power, that was yet to come, having at its head this "man of sin", the very "son of perdition" [as Judas was] was to hold its position over the very Church of God, claiming to be doing so "in the place" of God; "Vicarius Christi"; "Vicarius Filii Dei"; "AntiChristos":

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

We can see then, that which was withholding was the Roman Empire itself under the rule of Caesars. Others anciently also reveal this:

...Again, in the second epistle he addresses them with even greater earnestness: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that you be not soon shaken in mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, that is, the word of false prophets, or by letter, that is, the letter of false apostles, as if from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away, he means indeed of this present empire, and that man of sin be revealed, that is to say, Antichrist, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or religion; so that he sits in the temple of God, affirming that he is God. Do you not remember, that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And now you know what detains, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity does already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist ... [Roman Catholic Online Fathers Of The Church; On The Resurrection Of The Flesh (Tertullian); Chapter 24. Other Passages Quoted from St. Paul, Which Categorically Assert the Resurrection of the Flesh at the Final Judgment.] - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0316.htm

"... One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholds, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholds, that is, hinders him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him. And otherwise he ought now to have come, if he was about to come when the gifts ceased; for they have long since ceased. But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end. And he did not say that it will be quickly, although he is always saying it but what? that he may be revealed in his own season,... But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is nothing to call for it. So indeed he also says here. Only there is one that restrains now, until he be taken out of the way, that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God. For as the kingdoms before this were destroyed, for example, that of the Medes by the Babylonians, that of the Babylonians by the Persians, that of the Persians by the Macedonians, that of the Macedonians by the Romans: And these things Daniel delivered to us with great clearness. ... [Roman Catholic Online Fathers Of The Church; Homilies On Second Thessalonians (Chrysostom); Homily 4] - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/23054.htm

...The impediment is the Roman Empire; the main event impeded is the "man of sin" (most Latin Fathers and later interpreters) ... [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; A; Antichrist; In The Pauline Epistles; [second option of 4 listed]] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm

...I will nevertheless mention such conjectures as I have heard or read.

Some think that the Apostle Paul referred to the Roman empire, and that he was unwilling to use language more explicit, lest he should incur the calumnious charge of wishing ill to the empire which it was hoped would be eternal; However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, Only he who now holds, let him hold until he be taken out of the way, refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, Only he who now reigns, let him reign until he be taken out of the way. And then shall the wicked be revealed: no one doubts that this means Antichrist. ... [Roman Catholic Online Fathers Of The Church; The City of God (Book XX); (St. Agustine); Concerning the last judgment, and the declarations regarding it in the old and new testaments.; Chapter 19. What the Apostle Paul Wrote to the Thessalonians About the Manifestation of Antichrist Which Shall Precede the Day of the Lord.] - http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm

"5. The Fathers held that the Roman empire was the "let," or hindrance, referred to by Paul in 2 Thessalonians, which kept back the manifestation of the "man of sin." This point is of great importance. Paul distinctly tells us that he knew, and that the Thessalonians knew, what that hindrance was, and that it was then in existence. The early Church, through the writings of the Fathers, tells us what it knew upon the subject, and with remarkable unanimity affirms that this "let," or hindrance, was the Roman empire as governed by the Caesars; that while the Caesars held imperial power, it was impossible for the predicted antichrist to arise, and that on the fall of the Caesars he would arise. Here we have a point on which Paul affirms the existence of knowledge in the Christian Church. The early Church knew, he says, what this hindrance was. The early Church tells us what it did know upon the subject, and no one in these days can be in a position to contradict its testimony as to what Paul had, by word of mouth only, told the Thessalonians. It is a point on which ancient tradition alone can have any authority. Modern speculation is positively impertinent on such a subject.4 From Irenaeus, who lived close to apostolic times, down to Chrysostom and Jerome, the Fathers taught that the power withholding the manifestation of the "man of sin" was the Roman empire as governed by the Caesars. The Fathers therefore belong to the historic, and not to the futurist school of interpretation; for futurists imagine that the hindrance to the manifestation of the man of sin is still in existence, though the Caesars have long since passed away. ... [Romanism and the Reformation; H. Grattan Guiness; Pg 52-53] - http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/ROMANISM_AND_THE_REFORMATION.pdf

There are many more such historical quotations. As for the remainder of point "R", in that this power did not remain true to the Gospel, this shall be shown more fully under point "Y" ["wine of the wrath of her fornication"].

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 5, 2011

(T) There would be, "antichrists", which means more than one individual in its time [1 John 2:18] as its head, a position of authority filled in successions, a "man of sin" [2 Thessalonians 2:3]. It would not desire others ["women"], lifting itself "above all that is called God, or that is worshipped" [2 Thessalonians 2:4], both "forbidding to marry" and forcing and "[commanding]" other non-biblical abstentions [Daniel 11:37; 1 Timothy 4:1-3]

Since, we know that this Papal system was to continue for a very long time, even until the 2nd Advent of Christ Jesus and even have in the interim a great period of reign [1,260 day/years; 42 months; time, times and the dividing of time [3 1/2]; given 7 times in scripture; refer to point "G"] until it receives in one of its heads, "as it were wounded to death" [Revelation 13:3], "a deadly wound" [Revelation 13:3,12], though the system itself does not actually die, for it would recover and have the whole world "wonder" [Revelation 13:3] after it, it means that the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", the very "head" having the "eyes like the eyes of a man" and a "mouth speaking great things" [Daniel 7:8] was to have many successors, and therefore be many "antichrists" in a single position of authority and rule:

[In reverse quotation:]
"266. Pope Benedict XVI (2005-)
265. John Paul II (1978-2005)
264. John Paul I (1978)
263. Paul VI (1963-78) ...
..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "P"; "The List Of Popes"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

(etc, back into antiquity for many hundreds of years, unto whom it is claimed by them as first Pope; whom they say is "St. Peter") ...

"Apostolic Succession ...

That Apostolic succession is found in the Catholic Church.

That none of the separate Churches have any valid claim to it. ...

The Roman Claim

The principle underlying the Roman claim is contained in the idea of succession. "To succeed" is to be the successor of, especially to be the heir of, or to occupy an official position just after, as Victoria succeeded William IV. Now the Roman Pontiffs come immediately after, occupy the position, and perform the functions of St. Peter; they are, therefore, his successors. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "A"; "Apostolic Succession"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm

We will look at this "Apostolic Succession" [so-called] in another post to come.

Both the Head and System itself does not desire "women":

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. Daniel 11:37

The Head:

Now as we shall notice that the Papal position [and yea all of the positions of "priests, cardinals and bishops, etc."] were eventually required to be and remain celibate, and therefore "forbidding to marry":

"...Celibacy is the renunciation of marriage implicitly or explicitly made, for the more perfect observance of chastity, by all those who receive the Sacrament of Orders in any of the higher grades. ...

You ought anxiously to consider again and again what sort of a burden this is which you are taking upon you of your own accord. Up to this you are free. You may still, if you choose, turn to the aims and desires of the world (licet vobis pro artitrio ad caecularia vota transire). But if you receive this order (of the subdiaconate) it will no longer be lawful to turn back from your purpose. You will be required to continue in the service of God, and with His assistance to observe chastity and to be bound for ever in the ministrations of the Altar, to serve who is to reign.

By stepping forward despite this warning, when invited to do so, and by co-operating in the rest of the ordination service, the candidate is understood to bind himself equivalently by a vow of chastity. He is henceforth unable to contract a valid marriage, and any serious transgression in the matter of this vow is not only a grievous sin in itself but incurs the additional guilt of sacrilege. ...

... we do not find in the New Testament any indication of celibacy being made compulsory either upon the Apostles or those whom they ordained ...

... At a Roman council held by Pope Siricius in 386 an edict was passed forbidding priests and deacons to have conjugal intercourse with their wives (Jaffe-Löwenfeld, Regesta, I, 41), and the pope took steps to have the decree enforced in Spain and in other parts of Christendom (Migne, P.L., LVI, 558 and 728). ...

... The Council of Agde in Gaul, in 506, forbade subdeacons to marry, and such synods as those of Orléans in 538 and Tours in 567 prohibited even those already married from continuing to live with their wives. ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "C"; "Celibacy Of The Clergy"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

Peter himself was married:

And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. Matthew 8:14

But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her. Mark 1:30

And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her. Luke 4:38

Paul himself said:

And unto the married I command, [yet] not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from [her] husband: 1 Corinthians 7:10

Jesus said:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Matthew 5:32

The System:

A woman in Bible Prophecy represents the "people of God", ie, Jesus' Church as was already noted. So this system, does not actually want any other "women" [churches] around, and seeks to enfold the whole world into itself, and thus it explicitly teaches and defines that in order for one to receive salvation in Christ Jesus, one must be subject to the Roman Pontiff according to this system:

“... we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” [Roman Catholic Online Library; Papal Bull “Unam Sanctum” “His Holiness Pope Boniface VIII”; Promulgated November 18, 1302; Last Line] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_bo08us.htm and see also "...
The Bull is universal in character...." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "U"; "Unam Sanctum"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15126a.htm

“11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Library; “His Holiness Pope Pius XI”, Encyclical, “Mortalium Animos”, Promulgated on January 6th, 1928, Section 11] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pi11ma.htm and see also [“The Papal Encyclicals”, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, pp. 317, 318] -http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11MORTA.HTM

"...the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense ..." [Roman Catholic Declaration Vatican.Va Online; CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH; DECLARATION; "DOMINUS IESUS"; ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY; OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH] - http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

We will also find this Papal system "...[and commanding] to abstain...":

Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:3

“From what has been said it will be clear that in the early Middle Ages Lent throughout the greater part of the Western Church consisted of forty weekdays, which were all fast days, and six Sundays. From the beginning to the end of that time all flesh meat, and also, for the most part, "lacticinia", were forbidden even on Sundays, while on all the fasting days only one meal was taken, which single meal was not permitted before evening. … Quite recently, Maundy Thursday, upon which meat was hitherto always forbidden, has come to share in the same indulgence. ...The only compensation imposed for all these mitigations is the prohibition during Lent against partaking of both fish and flesh at the same repast.” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "L"; Lent] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm

Yet we know by scripture that no such abstentions, like "Lent" practices [see "weeping for Tammuz" Ezekiel 8:14] - http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStu.../LNG/en/7/Baptized-Paganism/SC/R/Default.aspx are demanded by God, for fasting is a personal choice [Romans 14], and also that we adhere to the Health Laws of God in the Blood, Fat and Clean and Unclean Divisionary laws [Genesis, Leviticus and Deuteronomy; etc. and New Testament: Gospels; Acts 10 and 15, etc.], for these have not changed in the least - http://www.christianforums.com/t7561668/

For those who may not understand that these food laws of God are indeed still in place for the Christian, who loves Christ and follows Him, is to observe and keep, please consider the posts in the last link, and if there are any questions on the dietary subject, please raise them in that thread.

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 5, 2011

Apostolic Succession or Apostolic Gift of the Holy Spirit Designated by God?:

[1.] How did the first Apostles come to be Apostles?

[2.] How did the replacement of any Apostle [such as ther replacement for Judas] come about?

[3.] Did the Apostles directly choose and vote for the succession of Apostles to themselves or was there some other means and criteria, and if so what?

1. Christ Jesus chose.

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve ..." John 6:70;p

"... I know whom I have chosen..." John 13:18;p

2. The Apostle to replace Judas, was to be chosen from them that had been with them the whole time from John's Baptism until the resurrection and been witness to those things, a follower of Christ Jesus, a believer and witness to the truth. Then in accordance with the scriptures by David in the Psalms, signified already by the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:16), then by prayer (prayer and Bible study!), asking for God's decision (not their will or choice but His to be done!), then after two are singled out of the 120 as best as humanly possible, the Lord then makes the choice through the "lot" and the gift of Apostleship is given to Matthias by the Holy Spirit [not by the Apostles], then also again signified by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit due to the event that took place in Heaven.

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication..." Acts 1:14;p

Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Acts 1:16

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:20

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Acts 1:21

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:22

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. Acts 1:23

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26

3. Paul [not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles; 2 Corinthians 2:11, 12:11] was also chosen directly as well on the Road to Damascus, by Jesus Christ, but also sent to be instructed further. Apsotleship in the Church is set by God, not of men, and gifts given by the Holy Spirit, dividing as He will, not as men will or vote or choose.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Romans 1:1

Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother, 1 Corinthians 1:1

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ..." 2 Corinthians 1:1

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,..." 1 Corinthians 12:28;p

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead Galatians 1:1

(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles; ) Galatians 2:8

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ..." Ephesians 1:1

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, ..." Colossians 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, [which is] our hope; 1 Timothy 1:1

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God...", 2 Timothy 1:1

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 1 Corinthians 12:11

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Corinthans 12:4

By scripture we see that truly it is GOD who gives some Apostles (not men)

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Ephesians 3:7

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Ephesians 4:11

Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute: Luke 11:49

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:28

Consider Jesus [the Apostle, "one who is sent", sent of the Father to do His will]:

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Hebrews 3:1

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Hebrews 5:5

CHRIST JESUS said it will not be like those who "excercise lordship":

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. Luke 22:25

But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. Luke 22:26

Whom did Christ Jesus set before them, as they bickered over who was the greatest? A little child was set among them:

And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, Matthew 18:2

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:4

“But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.”[“His Holiness Pope Leo XIII”, “Sapientiae Christianae”, On Christians as Citizens, Encyclical letter, January 10th, 1890; Section 22] - http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_le13sc.htm and also see - http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13sapie.htm

Where is the humilty of Christ in him for one who says that he is an Apostle of His?

One cannot buy the gift of the Holy Spirit with any amount:

"Pope Alexander VI ... That he obtained the papacy through simony was the general belief (Pastor, loc. cit.) and is not improbable (Raynaldus, Ann. eccl. ad an. 1492, n. 26), though it would be difficult to prove it juridically, at any rate, as the law then stood the election was valid. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "A"; "Pope Alexander VI"] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01289a.htm also see - http://www.csus.edu/indiv/c/craftg/Hist127/ALEXANDER%20VI.pdf also see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI

But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Acts 8:20

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 6, 2011

(S) The "Dragon" ["that old Serpent, which is the Devil and Satan" [Rev. 12:9, 20:2] working in/through that previous power] would give it it's "power and his seat, and great authority" [Rev. 13:2]

The 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire. Satan ["that old serpent"] worked through wicked men to destroy Jesus as an infant [Herod in the days of Caesar], and later, a Roman Procurator [Pontius Pilate] with the Religious leaders has Jesus crucified.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877/#post57599313

"... a great red dragon, ..." Rev. 12:3;p

"... and the dragon stood before the woman ... for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Rev. 12:4;p

This Roman Power would give its "power, seat and great authority" to this "beast" [religio/political Kingdom] that arises out of the "sea" [multitudes, peoples, nations and tongues]:

"... a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." Rev. 13:1;p

"... was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Rev. 13:2;p

“Rome's history spans over two and a half thousand years. It was the capital city of the Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire... Since the 1st century AD Rome has been the seat of the Papacy... After the Middle-Ages, Rome was ruled by popes...” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome

"Constantine did hand over the Lateran Palace to the bishop of Rome...Constantine's legalization of Christianity, combined with the donation of these properties, gave the bishop of Rome an unprecedented level of temporal power..." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I_and_the_bishops_of_Rome

"Plagued by internal instability and attacked by various migrating peoples, the western part of the empire... broke up into independent kingdoms in the 5th century. This disintegration is the landmark historians use to divide the ancient period from the medieval era and the "Dark Ages"." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome

“476. The Outlook for Rome. The transfer of the emperor's residence to Constantinople was a sad blow to the prestige of Rome, and at the time one might have predicted her speedy decline. But the development of the church, and the growing authority of the Bishop of Rome, or the pope, gave her a new lease on life, and made her again the capital – this time the religious capital – of the civilized world. ...” [A Short History Of Rome; Frank Frost Abbott; Professor In Princeton University; Chicago, Scott, Foresman and Company; Copyright 1906; [aka: “Abbot's ROMAN HISTORY”]; pp. 235-236] - http://books.google.com/books?id=-vs2AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

"...UNDER the Roman Empire the popes had no temporal powers. But when the Roman Empire had disintegrated and its place had been taken by a number of rude, barbarous kingdoms, the Roman Catholic church not only became independent of the states in religious affairs but dominated secular affairs as well. At times, under such rulers as Charlemagne (768-814), Otto the Great (936-73), and Henry III (1039-56), the civil power controlled the church to some extent; but in general, under the weak political system of feudalism, the well organized, unified, and centralized church, with the pope at its head, was not only independent in ecclesiastical affairs but also controlled civil affairs. The church interfered in secular affairs on the basis of its theory of the relation of church and state, which was formulated in substance by Augustine (354-430) and given wider and more definite application by such popes as Gregory VII (1073-85), Innocent III (1198-1216), Boniface VIII (1294-1303), and others. 1 ...

... 1 Nys, "Le droit international et la papauté," Revue de droit international, X (1878), 505-14; Jarrige, La condition internationale du Saint-Siège avant et après les accords du Lateran, pp. 30-41; Dunning, History of Political Theories, Ancient and Medieval, pp. 131-51; Chénon, Histoire des rapports de l'église et de l'état du Ier au XXème siècle, pp. 40-92; Bluntschli, Die rechtliche Unverantwortlichkeit und V erantwortlichkeit des römischen Papstes, pp. 22-25; Nys, Les origins du droit international, pp. 13-33; Bryce, Holy Roman Empire, pp. 64-68, 94, 103-9, 133-39, 150-52, 159-66, 218-20; Gierke, Political Theories of the Middle Age, pp. 2, 9-11; Murray, History of Political Science, pp. 37-47; Hauck, Der Gedanke der päpstlichen Weltherrschaft bis auf Bonifaz VIII; Bernheim, Mittelalterliche Zeitanschauungen in ihrem Einfluss auf Politik und Geschichtsschreibung, ..." [The Papacy and World-Affairs; AS REFLECTED IN THE SECULARIZATION OF POLITIC; BY CARL CONRAD ECKHARDT; Professor of History in the University of Colorado; THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS; CHICAGO · ILLINOIS; COPYRIGHT 1937 BY THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO.; ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. PUBLISHED JANUARY 1937.; COMPOSED AND PRINTED BY THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS, CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, U.S.A.] - http://clclibrary-org.tripod.com/papworld.html

"...With the conquest of Rome by Belisarius, the history of the ancient city may be considered as terminating; and with his defence against Witiges, commences the history of the middle ages, of the times of destruction and of change.* ..." [Greece Under The Romans; A Historical View of the Condition Of The Greek Nation, from the time of the conquest by the Romans until the extinction of the Roman Empire in the East; B.C. 146 - A.D. 717; By George Finlay, K.R.G.; Pg 295] - http://books.google.com/books?id=Y38OAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=Rome%20by%20Belisarius&f=false

“... The most noteworthy of the titles are Papa, Summus Pontifex, Pontifex Maximus, Servus servorum Dei. ...” [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; “P”; The Pope; subsection “Primacy of honour: titles and insignia; Titles; Pope”] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

“The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest bridge-maker") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. Its last use with reference to the emperors is in inscriptions of Gratian[1] (reigned 375–383) who, however, then decided to omit the words "pontifex maximus" from his title.[2][3]

The word "pontifex" later became a term used for Christian bishops,[4] including the Bishop of Rome,[5] and the title of "Pontifex Maximus" was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop. It is not included in the Pope's official titles,[6] but appears on buildings, monuments and coins of popes of Renaissance and modern times. … The Collegium Pontificum (College of Pontiffs) was the most important priesthood of ancient Rome. The foundation of this sacred college and the office of Pontifex Maximus is attributed to the second king of Rome, Numa Pompilius.[7] … In the Roman Republic, the Pontifex Maximus was the highest office in the state religion of ancient Rome and directed the College of Pontiffs. According to Livy, after the overthrow of the monarchy, the Romans created the priesthood of the rex sacrorum, or "king of sacred rites," to carry out certain religious duties and rituals previously performed by the king. The rex sacrorum was explicitly deprived of military and political power, but the pontifices were permitted to hold both magistracies and military commands.[8] … The Pontifex was not simply a priest. He had both political and religious authority. … ” [Wikipedia; Pontifex Maximus] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus

“... And if a man consider the original of this great ecclesiastical dominion, he will easily perceive that the papacy is no other than the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof: for so did the papacy start up on a sudden out of the ruins of that heathen power. ...” [“Leviathan” [or the Matter, Forme, & Power of a Common-wealth Ecclesiasticall and Civill]; London, printed for Andrew Crooke, at the Green Dragon in St. Paul's Church-yard 1651; Thomas Hobbes [of Malm[e]sbury]; pg 436] - http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/hobbes/Leviathan.pdf

[1.] “...But there are others which reveal him to us in another aspect, and which have drifted down through another channel. No saying of ecclesiastical history is more pregnant than that in which Hobbes declares that "the Pope is the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire, sitting crowned upon the grave thereof." This is the true original basis of his dignity and power, and it appears even in the minutest details. If he were to be regarded only as the successor of St. Peter, his chief original seat would, of course, be in the Basilica of St. Peter, over the Apostle's grave. But this is not the case. …”

*[“...But there are others [usages of titles/relics of antiquity]...”]

“... The Pope's proper see and Cathedral is the Basilica of St. John " in the Lateran "—that is, in the Lateran palace which was the real and only bequest of Constantine to the Roman Bishop. It had been the palace of the Lateran family. From them it passed to the Imperial dynasty. In it the Empress Fausta, wife of Constantine, usually lived. In it, after Constantine's departure to Constantinople, the Roman Bishop dwelt as a great Roman noble. In it accordingly is the true Pontifical throne, on the platform of which are written the words Hoec est papalis sedes et pontificalis. Over its front is inscribed the decree, Papal and Imperial, declaring it to be the mother and mistress of all churches. In it he takes possession of the See of Rome, and of the government of the Pontifical States. Although the story of Constantine's abdication to Pope Sylvester is one of the fables of the Papacy, yet it has in it this truth—that by the retirement of the Emperors to the East, they left Rome without a head, and that vacant place was naturally and imperceptibly filled by the chief of the rising community. To him the splendor and the attributes, which properly belonged to the Emperor, were unconsciously transferred.

Here, as in the case of ecclesiastical usages, we trace it in the small details which have lingered in him when they have perished elsewhere. The chair of state, the sella gestatoria, in which the Pope is borne aloft, is the ancient palanquin of the Roman nobles, and, of course, of the Roman Princes. The red slippers which he wears are the red shoes, campagines, of the Roman Emperor. ...”,

[2.] “...the Pope is the ghost of the deceased Roman Empire. ...” [Christian Institutions [Essays On Ecclesiastical Subjects]; Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, D.D.; Dean of Westminster; New York, Harper & Brothers, Franklin Square, 1881; [1.] pg 188-189, [2.] pg 201; *for clarification] - http://ia600303.us.archive.org/13/items/christianinst00stan/christianinst00stan.pdf

Papal Red Shoes:

http://gristleoflife.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/pope.jpg

http://www.latinmassnetwork.net/2008/04/10/PopesRedShoes.jpeg

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 7, 2011

(E) It would be a persecuting power especially one that shall "wear out the Saints of the Most High" God, all the while it claims to promote peace, and "by peace shall destroy many" [Daniel 7:21,25, 8:25; Revelation 17:6,14]

That the Roman Catholic Church has persecuted is no secret to those who know their history, and this will be seen in evidence to follow, but there will be no overly graphic depictions, for it is not the intent of these posts to harm, but rather to reveal the truth that has been buried in theological sounding jargon and that is being slowly forgotten.

The intent of this particular letter "E" is to reveal the doctrine of Rome on this matter as it actually was and currently still is. This particular letter is going to span over several posts, so that anyone may see for themselves.

Before beginning [please keep in mind this text]:

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Acts 24:14

The Roman Catholic Church has within its teachings, it's theology, which it still professes unto this day, a most terrible and unrelenting doctrine against whomever it deems heretic. It is thus stated briefly [in Latin]:

...C. XLVII. Non sunt homicidae qui adversus excommunicatos zelo matris ecclesiae armantur

Item Urbanus II. Godifredo, Lucano Episcopo 607.

Excommunicatorum interfectoribus (prout 608 in ordine Romanae ecclesiae didicisti 609a) secundum intentionem 610* modum congruae satisfactionis iniunge. Non 611 enim eos homicidas arbitramur 612, quos, aduersus excommunicatos zelo catholicae matris 613 ardentes, aliquos 614 eorum trucidasse contingit 615b. Ne 616 tamen eiusdem ecclesiae matris disciplina deseratur 617, tenore 618c, quem diximus, penitenciam eis indicito congruentem, qua diuinae simplicitatis oculos aduersus se conplacare ualeant 619, si forte quid duplicitatis pro humana fragilitate in eodem flagicio incurrerint 620. ...

... C. XLVIII. Pax ecclesiae mesticiam consulatur perditorum.

Item Augustinus [epistola L.] ad Bonifatium 621a.

Quis enim nostrum 622* uelit aliquem inimicorum 623b non solum perire, uerum etiam aliquid perdere? Sed si aliter non meruit habere pacem domus Dauid, nisi Absolon, filius euis, in bello, quod gerebat contra patrem, fuisset exstinctus, quamuis magna cura mandauerit 624c suis, ut eum, quantum possent, uiuum saluumque serarent, et 625d esset cui paternus affectus penitenti ignosceret 626, quid ei resistit 627, nisi perditum flere, et sui regni pace acquisita suam mesticiam consolari?

Gratian. Si ergo uiri sancti et publicae potestates bella gerentes non fuerunt transgressores illius mandati: Non occides, quamuis quosque flagitiosos digna morte perimerent; si miles suae potestati obediens non est reus homicidii, si eius inperio quemlibet flagitiosum interfecerit; si homicidas, et uenenarios punire non est effusio sanguinis, sed legum ministerium; si pax ecclesiae mesticiam consolatur perditorum; si illi, qui zelo catholicae matris accensi excommunicatos interficiunt, homicidae non iudicantur: patet, quod malos non solum flagellari, sed etiam interfici licet. {sign-double s} . I. Sed queritur, si contingat aliquos malos puniri ab his, qui non habent legitimam potestatem, an sint rei effusi sanguinis hii, per quos puniuntur?

De his ita scribit Ambrosius [lib. II. De Cain et Abel, cap. 4.]628: ...

C. XLIX. Aliquando puniuntur peccata per populos diuino iussu excitatos.

Remittuntur peccat per Dei uerbum, cuius Leuites interpres et quidam 629 executor est. Remittuntur 630a per offitium sacerdotis sacrumque ministerium. Puniuntur quoque peccata 631b per homines, sicut per iudices, qui potestate ad tempus utuntur. {sign-double s} I. 632C Puniuntur peccata etiam per populos, sicut legimus, quia sepe ab alienigenis, Dei iussu excitatis propter diuinae maiestatis offensam, subactus 633 est populus Iudeorum.

Gratian. Hinc notandum est, quod aliquando punit Deus peccata per nescientes, aliquando per scientes. Per nescientes peccata punit, sicut per Sennacherib 634, et per 635 Nabuchodonosor, et per Antiochum 636, et per principes Romanorum, et per nonnullos reges gentilium populum Israeliticum delinquentem afflixit aliquando, aliquando captiuauit. {sign-double s} I. Unde ipse 637 Dominus ait per Prophetam 638: Virga furoris mei Assur: ipse autem non cognouit. Assur erat uirga furoris Domini, quia per eum innumeras gentes diuina iustica flagellare disposuit. Ipse uero non cognouit, quia in superbiam elatus uictoriam, quam assecutus fuerat, non diuinae potenciae, sed suis uiribus attribuit. Unde contra eius superbiam Dominius loquitur, dicens 639: Numquid serra gloriabitur contra eum, qui secat in ea? aut numquid exaltabitur securis contra eum, qui cedit in ea? Quibus similitudinibus satis perspicue ostenditur, quod sicut serra et securis nec secare, nec ceder ligna possunt, nisi ab alio regantur, ac ideo contra regentem 640d se superbire non debent: sic illi, per quos Deus punit, absque nutu diuinae dispositionis nichil agere valent, ac ideo contra se regentem superbire non licet eis. {sign-double s} 2. Tales in eo, quod puniunt, Deo seruire di[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ur; in eo autem, quod ignorantes se esse ministros irae Dei inpia uanitate superbiunt, mercedem seruitutis suae a Dea non nisi temporalem inueniunt, penam uero superbiae suae non effugiunt. Unde, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] diceret ad Prophetam de Nabuchodonosor Dominus: Quid 641 dabo ei pro labore, quo seruiuit michi apud Tirum? statim subiunxit: Da, 642 hoc est datam sibi pronuncia, Egyptum et Ethiopiam. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] autem in corde suo superbiens postea diceret 643: Nonne hec est Babylon, quam ego condidi in robore regni mei? Etc. statim inmutauit Deus rationabilem mentem eius, et induit eum bestialitate ferina, ut ab hominibus fugiens [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] bestiis uiueret. {sign-double s} 3. Per Antiochum 644 quoque, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ydolatriam 645c Iudaicae plebis Dominus puniret, et pacem, quam ex lege Dei abiecta 646, et ex sacris nationum assumptis querebant 647, illis 648 in perniciem uerteret, quia Dei dispositionem ignorans suae facultati deuastationem illius plebis attribut, inprecatur in eum Propheta 649, dicens: Effunde iram tuam in gentes, que te non nouerunt, et in regna, que nomen tuum non inuocauerunt, ne forte dicant in gentibus: ubi est Deus eorum? {sign-double s} 4. Similiter, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] per Romanos peccatum mortis Christi Deus punire decreuisset, urbis 650 excidium et Iudaicae plebis miseram captiuitatem suis uiribus asscribere ceperunt, unde contra eos Propheta inprecatur, dicens 651: Leua manus tuas in superbias eorum, qui te oderunt, et qui multa maligne operati monumenta suae uictoriae posuerunt in medio atrio tuo. {sign-double s} 5. Per scientes peccata puniuntur, sicut 652f per filios Israel uoluit peccata punire Amorrheorum 653, et Chananeorum et aliarum 654 gentium, quarum terram Israelitis possidendam dedit, quibus etiam precepit 655, ut nemini eorum parcerent, sed omnes morti traderent. Quod propter peccata eorum illis contigisse ex uerbis Domini apparet, qui, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] diceret ad Abraham: Semini 656 tuo dabo terram hanc, ueluti quereret, quare non modo das eam michi? audiuit: Nondum enim sunt peccata Amorrheorum consummata. Que tunc intelliguntur fuisse consummata, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] populus ille, de Egyptiaca seruitute liberatus, terram eorum, sicut Abrahae promissum fuerat, in hereditatem accepit. {sign-double s} 6. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ergo sic diuino iussu ad puniendum peccata populi excitantur, sicut populus ille Iudaicus est excitatus ad occupandam terram promissionis, et ad delendas gentes peccatrices, sine cupla noxius sanguis effunditur, et que ab eis male possidentur in ius et dominium rite transeunt bonorum. {sign-double s} 7. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] uero occulto instinctu aliqui mouentur ad persequendum 657g malos, sicut Sennacherib, et ceteri, qui populum delinquentem persecuti sunt, licet occulto instinctu operante illorum meritis incitentur ad persequendum, tamen, quia praua intentione non peccata delinquentium punire, sed illorum bona rapere uel 658 suae dicioni subicere querunt, non sunt inmunes a crimine. De quibus etiam notandum est, quod aliquando excitantur ad puniendum peccata bonorum, ut tandem per bonos correctos 659 ipsi quoque puniantur, sicut in libro Iudicum legitur 660 de Iabin, rege Chananeorum, et de Madianitis, quod propter ydolatriam 661h populi suscitauit eos Deus 662, ut Israelem 663i affligerent, et terram eorum occuparent. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] autem populus Dei sub manibus eorum diutius afflictus peccatum suum recognosceret, et per penitencium Deum sibi placaret, ex 664k Dei precepto et 665 Barach, comitatus Delboram 666 prophetissam, uxorem Lapidoth, Iabin, regem Chananeorum, et Sysaram 667l ducem exercitus sui, contriuit, et Gedeon et 668m Zebee et Salmana, reges Madianitarum, et Oreb et Zeb, duces eorum, morti tradidit. {sign-double s} 8. Apparet ergo, quod aliquando per legitimam potestatem gerentes, aliquando per populos diuino iussu excitatos, mali pro peccatis suis non solum flagellantur, sed etiam rite perduntur. Nec est contrarium illud Augustini, quod ad Marcellinum pro circumcellionibus supplicans rogabat, ut uerberibus eos coherceret, non morte perderet. Quamuis 669 enim supplicando spatium uitae eis reseruari 670 poposcit, non tamen legum seueritatem, qua tales morte plectuntur, non obseruandam docuit. [The Decretum of Gratian Part 2 Case 23 Question 5 chapter 47-49; Decreti Secunda Pars Causa XXIII. Quest. V. c. 47-49; [47,48 specifically given; section 49 given in 'defense' of those actions/reasons presented in sections 47,48]] - http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/dig...531.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left= and http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/dig...532.html?toggle=image&menu=maximize&top=&left=

Thus the highlighted portion [in English] as:

[...They are not to be accounted murderers who, zealous for the mother church, have killed excommunicated persons. ...]

...and thus by the above reasoning of Rome [and further still to come] it is not a sin, nor crime to murder/kill a "heretic" [as defined by the Roman Catholic theology].

That which is here to follow, deeply exposes this rooted theology, that "she" will not let go of. The sources which will be cited and linked are the official Roman Catholic sources and further histories, namely:

[1.] Roman Catholic Catechism [CCC] [from Official Vatican.va Online source and New Advent Online],

[2.] Summa Theologica [Thomas Aquinas],

[3.] Roman Catholic Encyclopedia [citations included are with the official Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur],

[4.] Roman Catholic Canon Law [current, w/commentators] [from Official Vatican.va Online source],

[5.] Papal Bulls [from Official Vatican.va Online source, and/or Papal Encyclicals Online],

[6.] Popes, Councils, Cardinals, Bishops statements, rulings and documents, etc.,

[7.] History and various other resources [Americanna, Brittannica, Wiki, Merriam Websters], etc.

Letter "E" to be continued...

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 7, 2011

Main Page of Letters reference:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877/#post57562471

Beginning of Letter "E" reference:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877-4/#post57686052

Letter "E" continued:

Here is what the Roman Catholic Catechism, [Thomas Aquinas] Summa Theologica, and Roman Catholic Encyclopedia say on the subject:

[CCC] "
ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; Erroneous Judgment] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

[CCC] "
II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; Definition of Sin] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#II

The theology of the Roman Catholic Church just previously defined what being in "right conscience" was in regards to "moral conduct" and it includes accepting her "authority and her teaching". To not accept, or to reject her "authority and her teaching" is then a blatant violation [according to this system] of "right conscience" in "moral conduct", being a "desire contrary to the eternal law" [to be seen in more depth further in]. To be in such "rejection" injures "human solidarity" ["common good"] and therefore is "sin" as defined by the Roman Catholic theological position which defines all things regarding "faith and morals".

By that very definition then, any and all persons who are then continually and knowingly ["obstinate ill will"] in an open state of "denial" and/or "rejection" of the defined and declared "faith" [Roman Catholicism] or in open knowing "denial" and/or "rejection" of the official doctrinal position given by any Roman Pontiffs [popes] and/or Official Councils, is then for those persons who are such to be in "mortal sin".

[CCC] "
IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131 ..." [Roman Catholic Catechism; Mortal Sin] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

"... The gravity of the matter is judged from the teaching of Scripture, the definitions of councils and popes, and also from reason. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Sin] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm#III

We then can clearly see at this point that "grave matter" [and "gravity of the matter"] on "faith and morals" is also judged by the "definitions of councils and popes" of the Roman Catholic Church.

So when one is obstinately and voluntarily in clear, full, open and conscious denial of the Roman Catholic Churches official doctrinal position, and unwilling under any circumstance to alter their decision/position, "she" may then condemn such persons at will by those very "definitions of councils and popes".

According to the Roman Catholic Church [as it has in the past, to excommunicate, bring under interdict, consign, or worse still] at this point, "she" is then without recourse, so that "she" may then use "force" [whatever "she" deems fit or necessary] to correct/reclaim or even destroy/eliminate "heretics" [for these who deny Roman Catholic teaching are then considered in "erroneous judgment" in regard to "faith and morals", and being "reprobate", "wicked" and "evil", openly and defiantly committing and living in "mortal sin".]

These "heretical person" supposedly endangering not only themselves [like someone classified as a rabid "beast"; see Original Latin article by Gratian], but also an evil danger to the faith/faithful of the Roman Catholic Church and the "common good" [as defined by themselves, "injures human solidarity"] and should these "heretical person" not "repent" or "recant" properly then they are considered as hopeless and forever lost, an immediate and overt danger to themselves, to society and any others who may come into contact with them. They may be freely handed over for "justice" or to be warred against by whatever means necessary according to law [falls under the Roman Catholic Church's definition and category of "just war" [a holy "crusade"]; no longer seeking the "heretics" [RCC def.] conversion, but rather their swift and total elimination.

We can now see that the Roman Catholic Church in her theological dogmas teaches that to "knowingly" and "voluntarily" reject the official standing doctrinal teaching of any "Pope" is to automatically reject the Law of God, being the eternal "Divine Law".

It is taught of the "Pope" that in regards to Roman Catholic Canon Law [which deals with all of the other Laws: Divine [moral], Natural, Canon, etc.], ... Furthermore, he is, so to say, the living law, for he is considered as having all law in the treasury of his heart ("in scrinio pectoris"; Boniface VIII. c. i, "De Constit." in VI). " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Canon Law, The Living Law] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm#III

So, to knowingly and obstinately "reject" the official doctrinal teachings of the Pope in regards to "faith and morals" is then to commit [according to their definition] a "mortal sin". Thus, a person deemed [latae sententiae] such is then also in direct "erroneous judgment" in the "grave matters" of "faith and morals", and is therefore subject to whatever penalty/judgment is given.

So, by this, it is therefore claimed to be theirs ["Pope", "councils" and the Roman Catholic Church] to condemn when deemed fit:

"... Moreover, the powers conferred in these regards are plenary. ... nothing is withheld. ... They do not need the antecedent approval of any other tribunal. ... It is theirs to judge offences against the laws, to impose and to remit penalties. ... Further, since the Church is the kingdom of the truth, so that an essential note in all her members is the act of submission by which they accept the doctrine of Christ in its entirety, supreme power in this kingdom carries with it a supreme magisterium authority to declare that doctrine and to prescribe a rule of faith obligatory on all." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; The Pope] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

So, let us ask, What does "she" [RCC] deem must happen to those "she" finds as Heretics and/or harboring what "she" deems Heresy?

However, before we can answer that question in any detail and thoroughly and more fully, let us also ask, What does she [RCC] deem as heresy?

"...Pertinacious adhesion to a doctrine contradictory to a point of faith clearly defined by the Church is heresy pure and simple, heresy in the first degree. " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Heresy] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_VIII

Letter "E" to be continued:

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 7, 2011

Letter "E" continued:

[CCC] " 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11 ..." [Roman Catholic Online Catechism; PART THREE: LIFE IN CHRIST; SECTION TWO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT; I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"; Ending Notation 11, refers to Canon 751 of Roman Catholic Canon Law] - http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7C.HTM

Let us also consider the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas on the subject:

"Summa Theologica: Article 3. Whether heretics ought to be tolerated? ..."

" I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. ..."

"...On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. ..."

"...Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command ..."

"...For this reason the Church not only admits to Penance those who return from heresy for the first time, but also safeguards their lives, and sometimes by dispensation, restores them to the ecclesiastical dignities which they may have had before, should their conversion appear to be sincere: we read of this as having frequently been done for the good of peace. But when they fall again, after having been received, this seems to prove them to be inconstant in faith, wherefore when they return again, they are admitted to Penance, but are not delivered from the pain of death. ..."

"...Reply to Objection 1. In God's tribunal, those who return are always received, because God is a searcher of hearts, and knows those who return in sincerity. But the Church cannot imitate God in this, for she presumes that those who relapse after being once received, are not sincere in their return; hence she does not debar them from the way of salvation, but neither does she protect them from the sentence of death. " [The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas Second and Revised Edition, 1920 Literally translated by Fathers of the English Dominican Province Online Edition Copyright © 2008 by Kevin Knight Nihil Obstat. F. Innocentius Apap, O.P., S.T.M., Censor. Theol. Imprimatur. Edus. Canonicus Surmont, Vicarius Generalis. Westmonasterii. APPROBATIO ORDINIS Nihil Obstat. F. Raphael Moss, O.P., S.T.L. and F. Leo Moore, O.P., S.T.L. Imprimatur. F. Beda Jarrett, O.P., S.T.L., A.M., Prior Provincialis Angliæ MARIÆ IMMACULATÆ - SEDI SAPIENTIÆ] - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm

Let us now keep in mind that the "sentence of death" can [and even must be, when "necessary" and able in a issue of "grave matter"] be given for what the Roman Catholic Church deems "Heresy" [as defined: "Pertinacious adhesion to a doctrine contradictory to a point of faith clearly defined by the Church" -- whatever "she" may deem this is] in the matter of "faith and morals".

We are about to see that the power, council and approval to do so are still in "her".

It is not gone, nor removed, but merely in "abeyance"... [not at 'this time' openly practiced...but not removed.]

Word Definition:

"ABEYANCE ...

Def: 1 : a lapse in succession during which there is no person in whom a title is vested; 2 : temporary inactivity : suspension ..." [Merrian-Webster's Online Dictionary; "Abeyance"] - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abeyance or http://www.britannica.com/bps/dictionary?query=abeyance

So, is this "old news, old ways"? Let us look for this word and how it is used:

"...Like other powers and rights, the power of rejecting heresy adapts itself in practice to circumstances of time and place, and, especially, of social and political conditions. ...

"...The ancient discipline charged the bishops with the duty of searching out the heresies in their diocese and checking the progress of error by any means at their command. ..."

"...In some particularly aggravated cases sentence of death was pronounced upon heretics..."

"...The Synod of Verona (1184) imposed on bishops the duty to search out the heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power. Other synods, and the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) under Pope Innocent III, repeated and enforced this decree, especially the Synod of Toulouse (1229), which established inquisitors in every parish (one priest and two laymen). ..."

"...The present-day legislation against heresy has lost nothing of its ancient severity; but the penalties on heretics are now only of the spiritual order; all the punishments which require the intervention of the secular arm have fallen into abeyance. ..."

"...To restrain and bring back her rebellious sons the Church uses both her own spiritual power and the secular power at her command. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Heresy] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_VIII

...for "all the punishments which require the secular arm" at "her command" have merely fallen into "abeyance" [merely a temporary cessation, until "she" can use it openly again]... for the Roman Catholic Church, in this practice of condemning "heretics" to "death", actually hides itself, biding its time and "...adapts itself in practice to circumstances of time and place...", until "she" may condemn to death whom "she" deems as heretics openly.

For those who need to read this again do so carefully. LOOK! UNDERSTAND! These words clearly reveal that the [H]RCC may still bring about DEATH to a Heretic as they deem fit [when they are able], but it is yet at this time [in "abeyance"] not being enforced [that is openly known of], but it is NOT GONE, NOT DONE AWAY, NOT REMOVED! The punishment for HERESY [as defined by the [H]RCC] is still VERY REAL [it is merely dormant and sleeping, not dead], and is only biding its time, waiting to resurface in it all of its UNMITIGATED FURY, for as the previous quote given says, "...adapts itself in practice to circumstances of time and place..." and as soon as it is needed again, as soon as it can, and wherever it can and will do so, it can be drawn upon in FULL FORCE! The Bible declares and even a prophet, a messenger of the Lord, has declared that it is going to happen again soon, The Second Beast makes the Image to that of the First Beast, and will be the "sword" in "her" hand:

"And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Revelation 13:12

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1

It is the Second Beast [False Prophet power] of Revelation 13 which heals the wound of the First Beast.

Letter "E" to be continued:

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 8, 2011

Letter "E" continued:

Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia says:

The question has been raised whether it be lawful for the Church, not merely to sentence a delinquent to physical penalties, but itself to inflict these penalties. As to this, it is sufficient to note that the right of the Church to invoke the aid of the civil power to execute her sentences is expressly asserted by Boniface VIII in the Bull "Unam Sanctam". This declaration, even if it be not one of those portions of the Bull in which the pope is defining a point of faith, is so clearly connected with the parts expressly stated to possess such character that it is held by theologians to be theologically certain (Palmieri, "De Romano Pontifice", thes. 21). The question is of theoretical, rather than of practical importance, since civil Governments have long ceased to own the obligation of enforcing the decisions of any ecclesiastical authority. This indeed became inevitable when large sections of the population ceased to be Catholic. The state of things supposed could only exist when a whole nation was thoroughly Catholic in spirit, and the force of papal decisions was recognized by all as binding in conscience. [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; The Pope] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

See how the question that "has been raised" was avoided?

"...David of Augsburg (cf. Preger, "Der Traktat des David von Augshurg uber die Waldenser", Munich, 1878 pp. 43 sqq.) pointed out to the inquisitor four methods of extracting open acknowledgment:

fear of death, i.e. by giving the accused to understand that the stake awaited him if he would not confess; ...

more or less close confinement, possibly emphasized by curtailment of food; ...

visits of tried men, who would attempt to induce free confession through friendly persuasion; ...

torture, which will be discussed below.

... Had this papal legislation been adhered to in practice, the historian of the Inquisition would have fewer difficulties to satisfy. In the beginning, torture was held to be so odious that clerics were forbidden to be present under pain of irregularity. Sometimes it had to be interrupted so as to enable the inquisitor to continue his examination, which, of course, was attended by numerous inconveniences. Therefore on 27 April, 1260, Alexander IV authorized inquisitors to absolve one another of this irregularity. Urban IV on 2 August, 1262, renewed the permission, and this was soon interpreted as formal licence to continue the examination in the torture chamber itself. The inquisitors manuals faithfully noted and approved this usage. The general rule ran that torture was to be resorted to only once. But this was sometimes circumvented first, by assuming that with every new piece of evidence the rack could be utilized afresh, and secondly, by imposing fresh torments on the poor victim (often on different days), not by way of repetition, but as a continuation (non ad modum iterationis sed continuationis), as defended by Eymeric; "quia, iterari non debent [tormenta], nisi novis supervenitibus indiciis, continuari non prohibentur."..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Inquisition] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

"fewer difficulties [about torture] to satisfy"?

["she" therefore openly admits that there is such a past, and stretches "her" theological mind ~~to explain away "her" methods satisfactorily, with "reason", even in the light of all available evidence]~~

"numerous inconveniences"?

[For whom was it inconvenient, certainly "she" does not mean the one on trial, in prison or being tortured]

"absolve one another of this irregularity"?

["irregularity" is speaking of that which is defined and written in Canon Law concerning the clerics involved, and thus "she" even finds a way to bend her own laws]

"And why was this practice "odious"?

Obviously not because of concern for the living being tortured, maimed or about to be burned, killed, but for their own "sanctity", for their own "purity" so that they ["clerics", priests, etc] would not incur, what they term "irregularity". These could later simply "absolve" their ownselves of, by Papal authorization, which means the Pope knew exactly what was going on. [see also, "Ad Extirpanda", "Inquisitors" are "commissioned by the Apostolic See" and are "obtained" from the "Apostolic See".]

Compare those ["clerics"] with the Pharisaical Jews in JESUS' day, that would not enter into the Palace of Pilate...yet they had no compunction about handing Jesus over to Pilate to be tortured and crucified. When Pilate refused again to have Him crucified [though not above still beating Him and allowing Him to suffer pains of punishment meant for the guilty, though Pilate again and again stated that Jesus was innocent], the Jews were given the ability to Crucify Him themselves, and were present at the Crucifixion and Cross, and were also given soldiers of the state to aide in it and carry it out.

"...torture...was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull "Ad exstirpanda" of 15 May, 1252, which was confirmed by Alexander IV on 30 November, 1259, and by Clement IV on 3 November, 1265. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Inquisition] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

"Ad Extirpanda

... A Proclamation of the Laws and Regulations to be Followed by Magistrates and Secular Officials against Heretics and their Accomplices and Protectors

... Innocent, the Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God, to his beloved sons, the heads of state or rulers, ministers and citizens established in the states and districts of Lombardy, Riviera di Romagnola, and Marchia Tervisina, salvation and an apostolic benediction.

... To root up from the midst of Christian people the weed of heretical wickedness, which infests the healthy plants more than it formerly did, pouring out licentiousness through the offices of the enemy of mankind in this age the more eagerly (as we address ourselves to the sweated labor of the task assigned us) the more dangerously we overlook the manner in which this weed runs riot among the Catholic growth. Desiring, then, that the sons of the church, and fervent adherents of the orthodox faith, rise up and make their stand against the artificers of this kind of evildoing, we hereby bring forth to be followed by you as by the loyal defenders of the faith, with exact care, these regulations, contained serially in the following document, for the rooting-up of the plague of heresy.

... In what we gave to your community in apostolical writings, amounting to regulations that we wrote for your legal codes, never at any time to be repealed, making war according to these regulations against all heresy, which rears its head above this holy church, you have gone forward without stint. However, I have sent a letter to my beloved sons, the Dominican priors, provincials and inquisitors into heretical wickedness in Lombardy, Marchia Tervisina and Riviera di Romagnola, commanding each of you that you compel recalcitrant individuals by your excommunication and countries by your interdict to submit (sc. to the new regulations)

... We decree that the head of state, whatever his rank or title, in each dominion, whether he is so situated at present, or to be so in the future, in Lombardy, Riviera di Romagnola, or Marchia Tervisina must unequivocally and unhesitatingly swear that he will inviolably preserve, and during his entire term of office see to it that everybody, both in his diocese or administrative domain and the lands subject to his power, shall observe, both what is written herein, and other regulations and laws both ecclesiastical and civil, that are published against heretical wickedness. And the oaths concerning these precisely-observed regulations and laws are to be accepted by whoever succeeds to the monarchical or gubernatorial dignity. Whoever defaults in this regard shall lose the character of head of state or governor. Heads of state and rulers so acting will lose absolutely all guarantees of non-aggression from other governments. No one is obliged to offer fealty to such persons, or ought to do so, even if, afterwards, they submit by swearing the oath. If any head of state or ruler refuses to obey, each and all, these statutes, or neglects them, besides the stigma of forswearing, and the disaster of eternal infamy, he shall undergo the penalty of seeing his country lose its borders, which penalty shall be imposed on him irrecoverably; the country will be converted to common use, because, specifically, a man forsworn and infamous, and, in effect, a protector of heretics, his faith compromised, has usurped the dignity and honor of governmental power; nor shall another head of state or ruler from anywhere replace him, or in any way, by any means, take to himself the vacated dignity or public office.

... At the commencement of his term of office, at the assembly of citizens convoked as is the custom, by the authority of the city or feudal domain, the head of state or ruler of the city or feudal domain shall accuse of criminal conduct all heretics of both sexes, no matter by what name they appear on the rolls of citizens. And he will confirm his right to the office inherited from his predecessor in this manner. And furthermore, that no heretical man or woman may dwell, sojourn, or maintain a bare subsistence in the country, or any kind of jurisdiction or district belonging to it, whoever shall find the heretical man or woman shall boldly seize, with impunity, all his or their goods, and freely carry them off, to belong to the remover with full right, unless this kind of removing is restricted to persons designated by law. ...

... This head of state or ruler, by the third day of his term of office, must appoint twelve upright and Catholic men, and two notaries and two servants, or as many as may be needed, selected by the Diocesan bishop if there is one and he wishes to take part; and two Dominicans and two Franciscans selected for this work by their priors, if the region has religious houses of those orders. ..."

[To be continued; The full reference to be given at the completion of the quote]

"Ad Extirpanda" to be continued...

Letter "E" to be continued:

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 8, 2011

Letter "E" continued:

"Ad Extirpanda" continued...

"... Those who are thus appointed may and should seize the heretical men and women and carry off their possessions and cause these to be carried off by others, and take the heretics, or cause them to be taken, into the custody of the Diocesan bishop or his surrogates, and see to it that these things are fully accomplished as well in the diocese as in its entire jurisdiction and district.

... The head of state, or whatever ruler stands foremost in the public esteem, must cause the heretics who have been arrested in this manner to be taken to whatever jurisdiction the Diocesan, or his surrogate, is in, or whatever district, or city, or place the Diocesan bishop wishes to take them to.

... The utterances of the aforementioned officials are to be faithfully accepted in every matter that regards their office, specially in the aforementioned oath; arguments tending to the contrary are not allowed, where two, three, or more of those present are such officials.

... Moreover, when these officials are chosen, they shall swear to execute faithfully all these laws, and to the best of their ability, to tell nothing but the truth, in all those commitments, which as they belong to their office, they fully carry out. ...

... And both the aforesaid twelve men and their aforesaid servants and notaries, whether acting as a group, or singly, shall, in all that belongs to their office, have full command, backed by the executive and punitive power of the state.

... The head of state or ruler is obliged to treat as fixed and unrepealable all precepts which their office shall require them to utter, and to punish those who fail to conform to these precepts.

... If the said officials shall at any time receive any damage either in their persons or their goods as a result of the performance of their duties, they shall be saved harmless by means of a full restitution. ...

... Neither these officials, nor their successors, are permitted at any time to reach an agreement about what they are doing, or of what their duties consist, unless this agreement is dictated by the aforesaid Diocesan and religious orders.

... The term of office of these officials shall last only six months, which when they have completed, the head of state is obliged to substitute for them according to the prescribed form, an equal number of officials who shall serve the aforesaid term in the same form in the following six-month period. ...

... These officials shall receive out of the state treasury, or that of the district, when they leave them for the purpose of performing these duties, each of them 18 gold coins, which the head of state or ruler is obliged to give them or cause to be given them; if not then, before the third day after their return to the same city or district.

... And beyond that they shall seize one-third of the heretics' property; one-third of the fines to which the heretics shall be sentenced shall go to the lesser officials who must content themselves with this pay.

... But they shall not be, in any way, required to perform any other duty or work which interferes with, or might interfere with, this duty. ...

... No legislation, passed or yet to be passed, shall have force to interfere with any of these official functions.

... And if one of these officials, through incompetence, sloth, preoccupation with another task, or exceeding of the limits of his authority, is removed from office by the aforesaid Diocesan bishop and religious orders, the head of state or ruler must remove him by their command or word and, according to the prescribed form, substitute another. ...

... If one of these officials, faithlessly and falsely, exceeds the limits of his authority to give aid and comfort to persons in custody on heresy charges, besides everlasting infamy, which, as a protector of heretics, he shall incur, he shall be punished by the head of state or ruler according to the sentence of the aforesaid Diocesan and monastic orders of the place.

... When the Diocesan, or his surrogate, or the inquisitors commissioned by the Apostolic See, arrive on their missions, the head of state and his vassals and other assistants will lend aid and will faithfully perform their duty with them will be bound to give the aforesaid officials and their assistants counsel and help when they are trying to arrest a male or female heretic, or seize such a person's belongings, or gather evidence; or enter a house, or a manor, or a hideaway to arrest heretics, on pain of paying 25 pounds in Imperials as a penalty or fine on their former loyalty changing, in whatever manner, to dereliction; the government of a city shall pay a hundred pounds, a manorial domain fifty imperials in coin. ...

... Whoever shall have the audacity to arrange the escape from custody of a male or female heretic, or shall try to prevent the arrest of such a person: or shall prevent the entry of an official into any house, or tower, or any place to hinder arrest, or prevent the gathering of evidence concerning such persons, shall have all his goods, according to the law at Padua when Frederick was emperor there, consigned to the state in perpetuity, and the house that was barred against the official shall be levelled with the ground and its rebuilding prohibited, and the belongings found therein shall be awarded to the officials making the arrest; and if the heretics are found as a result of this prohibition or special preventive measure, the borough shall forfeit to the state two hundred pounds; localities both of the boroughs and the state fifty Imperials, unless within three days the would-be liberator or liberators of the heretics are brought before the head of state for a personal interview. ...

... Above all, the head of state or ruler must hold all male and female heretics who shall be arrested from this date, in the custody of Catholic men appointed by the Diocesan if there is one, and the above mentioned monastic orders, in a safe and secure prison set aside for them, in which only they will be held, away from thieves and violators of the secular criminal code, till their cases are decided; expenses to be paid by the state or the administrative district. ...

... If at any time a non-heretical man or woman state that heretics in custody, who have already confessed, are no heretics; or if perhaps the non-heretics demand that the aforesaid fraudulent persons should be released from life imprisonment, though they are nevertheless convicted heretics and must be acknowledged such; the persons who create this snare, accordingly to the aforesaid law shall resign all their property to the state in perpetuity. ...

... The head of state and ruler of whatever kind are especially obliged to present all male and female heretics, under whatever name they are accused, within fifteen days after their arrest, to the Diocesan or his surrogate, or to the inquisitors of heresy, to perform the examination of themselves and their heresies.

... Those convicted of heresy by the aforesaid Diocesan Bishop, surrogate or inquisitors, shall be taken in shackles to the head of state or ruler or his special representative, instantly, or at least within five days, and the latter shall apply the regulations promulgated against such persons. ...

... The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs, as actual robbers and murderers of souls and thieves of the sacraments of God and Christian faith, to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and specify their motives, and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them, as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed. ...

... And the house, in which a male or female heretic shall be discovered, shall be levelled with the ground, never to be rebuilt; unless it is the master of the house who shall have arranged the discovery of the heretics. And if the master of the house owns other houses in the same neighborhood, all of the other houses shall in like manner be destroyed, and the goods that shall be found in the house and the others related to it shall be dispersed to the populace, and shall belong to whoever carries them off, unless the removers shall be appointed by law. Above all, the master of the house, besides incurring eternal infamy, must pay the government or locality fifty pounds Imperial in coin; if unable to pay, he shall suffer life imprisonment. The borough where the heretics are arrested or discovered shall pay the government of the state a hundred pounds; and a manor shall pay fifty, and the regions adjoining manors and states, fifty. ...

... Whoever shall be caught giving any male or female heretic counsel, help, or favor, besides the other punishments mentioned duly in their logical places in other passages of this decree, shall become infamous by that same law, and shall be admitted neither to public office, nor public affairs, nor the election of persons to these, nor may he testify in a legal process; to that extent shall his incapacity to testify go, that he shall neither bequeath legacies to heirs nor inherit them himself. No one shall be compelled to respond to any business dealings initiated by him but he shall be so compelled by others. If he be by chance a judge, his sentence shall prove nothing, nor shall he hear any case. If he be an attorney, his defence in court will never be allowed to prevail. If he be a notary, the legal documents drawn up by him shall be utterly without validity. Those who give ear to the false doctrines of heretics shall be punished like heretics. ...

... The head of state or ruler must cause the names of all men rendered infamous by heresy, or under a statute of outlawry for it, to be written in a consistent form and manner in four books, of which one shall go to the state or local government, another to the Diocesan bishop, the third to the Dominican friars, and the fourth to the Franciscans, and the names of these persons are to be read aloud three times a year in a solemn public ceremony. ..."

[To be continued; The full reference to be given at the completion of the quote]

"Ad Extirpanda" to be continued...

Letter "E" to be continued:

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 8, 2011

Letter "E" continued:

"Ad Extirpanda" continued...

"... The head of state or ruler must carefully investigate the sons and grandsons of heretics and those who have lodged them, defended them, and given them aid, and in the future admit them to no public affairs or public office. ..."

... The head of state or ruler must send one of his aides, chosen by the Diocesan if there is one, with the aforesaid inquisitors obtained from the Apostolic See, as often as they shall wish, into the jurisdiction of the state and the district. This aide, as the aforesaid inquisitors shall have determined, will compel three men or more, reliable witnesses, or, if it seem good to them, the whole neighborhood, to testify to the aforesaid inquisitors if they have detected any heretics, or want to expose their motives, whether the heretics celebrate rites in secret gatherings, or scoff at the common life of the faithful, and their customs; or if the witnesses want to expose those the heretics have seduced, or their defenders, or those who lodge them, or those who give the heretics help. The head of state shall proceed against the accused according to the laws of the Emperor Frederick when he governed Padua. ...

... The head of state or ruler must, within ten days after the accusation, complete the following tasks: the destruction of the houses, the imposition of the fines, the consigning and dividing-up of the valuables that have been found or seized, all of which have already been described in this decree. He must obtain all fines in coin within three months, and divide them up in the manner to be set forth hereafter, and convict of crime those who cannot pay, and hold them in prison until they can. However, he shall be subject to investigation for all and each of these things, as it shall be described hereunder, and moreover he must designate one of the assistants, chosen by the Diocesan bishop or his surrogate and the aforesaid inquisitors, to carefully complete all these tasks; another assistant shall be substituted if they so decide. …

... None of these sentences or punishments imposed on account of heresy, shall, either by the motion of any public gathering, the advice of counselors, or any kind of popular outcry, or the innate humanity of those in authority, be in any way waived or pardoned. ...

... The head of state or ruler must divide up all the property of the heretics that is seized or discovered by the aforesaid officials, and the fines exacted from these heretics, in the form and manner following: one-third shall go to the government of the state or district. The second as a reward of the industry of the office shall go to the officials who handled this particular case. The third shall be deposited in some secure place to be kept by the aforesaid Diocesan bishop and inquisitors, and spent as they shall think fit to promote the faith and extirpate heretics, this policy prevailing in spite of any statute that has been or shall be enacted against this dividing-up of the heretics' property. ...

... If anyone tries to abolish, reduce or change any of these statutes, without particular authority from the Apostolic See, the head of state or ruler presiding at that time over the state or district, must, according to the prescribed form, render him infamous, as a public advocate and patron of heretics, and fine him fifty Imperials in coin, which if the head of state is unable to collect, he shall declare him an outlaw, a brand not to be removed till twice the sum is paid over. …

... The head of state, or ruler, during the first ten days of his term of office, by employing three faithful Catholic men, chosen for this purpose by the Diocesan bishop, if there is one, and the Dominican and Franciscan friars, must investigate the most recent occupant of his post, and the latter's aides, concerning everything that is written in these statutes or regulations and laws against heretics and their accomplices, and punish those who have overstepped the bounds of their authority for each and every particular they have neglected to perform, and compel the present government to restore the lost function; nor shall any departure from the regular procedure cause anyone in the government to be exempted from the investigation. …

... The aforesaid three men shall swear that they have acted in good faith in investigating the previous government concerning everything in these laws and regulations. ...

... In addition, the head of state or ruler of any city or district must delete or erase completely whatever, in any statute or legal code, is found to contradict or hinder, in any way, these regulations, statutes, or laws; and in the beginning and the middle of his term of office, he shall cause these statutes, regulations, and laws to be solemnly read aloud in a public assembly; and even in places outside his jurisdiction or district, they shall be set forth if it seem good to the aforesaid Diocesan, or inquisitors and friars aforementioned. …

... Finally, all these statutes, regulations, and laws, and whatever shall be enacted at any time by the Apostolic See against heretics and their accomplices, must be written in a consistent format in four books, of which the first shall be deposited in the legal archives of the state, the second with the Diocesan bishop, the third with the Dominicans, the fourth with the Franciscans, all kept with the greatest care, that they may in no way be violated by forgers. ...

... Given at Perusio, 15 May, in the ninth year of our pontificate." [Ad Extirpanda; translated into English; Pope Innocent IV; for further notation and Latin text, please follow the Link provided] - http://www.scribd.com/doc/23292309/Ad-Extirpanda-Pope-Innocent-IV-1252

"... This, however, was also no innovation, for in 1205 Innocent III, by the Bull "Si adversus vos" forbade any legal help for heretics: "We strictly prohibit you, lawyers and notaries, from assisting in any way, by council or support, all heretics and such as believe in them, adhere to them, render them any assistance or defend them in any way." But this severity soon relaxed, and even in Eymeric's day it seems to have been the universal custom to grant heretics a legal adviser, who, however, had to be in every way beyond suspicion, "upright, of undoubted loyalty, skilled in civil and canon law, and zealous for the faith." ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Inquisition] - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

Indeed, the aforementioned words reveal that the person accused as a "heretic" may have had "legal" help. This is supposed to sound beneficial to the person accused. However, this so-called "defender" [rather not of the person accused, but of the very Roman Catholic faith, sworn to the Papal See to uproot any and all "heretics"] had to be one from the Roman Catholic's own sworn ranks, a person who was of undying loyalty to the Roman Catholic faith alone, as is stated plainly, "upright, of undoubted loyalty, skilled in civil and canon law, and zealous for the faith."

What benefit was such to the person ~~who was/were already denounced with "infamy" and branded as a "heretic" or "harborer" even before sentencing?~~

Notice in the beginning of "Ad Extirpanda", that Pope Innocent IV, already alludes to that which had been given in regards to the punishment of "heretics", and such were "never to be repealed".

Many will proclaim that this document "Ad Extirpanda" does not directly say to "burn", "stake", etc. a "heretic", but this is because it is more subtly given already and previously.

The accused guilty are condemned guilty, and "heresy" is whatever the Papacy deems it to be, and as such can be anything they define according to their doctrines of "faith and morals", and so a "heretic" can be anyone they decide one to be who determines to "reject" those official declarations.

We will also notice in "Ad Extirpanda" that though "severe words" [burn, stake, etc] are not immediately present, but this is because Pope Innocent IV in several occasions mentions the laws of Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II of Padua [see Constitution of 1224], and this being most important to consider on the punishment of what the Roman Catholic Church deems "heretics". We must then go back even further to determine what is actually being said in "Ad Extirpanda" in regards to a penalty for "heretics".

We should also consider other councils [Lateran Council, 1215] and papal [Alexander IV (1254 - 1292), Clement IV (1265 - 1268), Nicholas IV (1288 - 1292), Boniface VIII (1294 – 1303); Urban IV; Gregory IX] decrees [ie Innocent III – Bull "Si Adversus Vos"].

I will recommend anyone to read the translators notes and introduction to "Ad Extirpanda", again found here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23292309/Ad-Extirpanda-Pope-Innocent-IV-1252

But for now, let us actually look at some history regarding this "Frederick" at "Padua" and his Laws regarding "heretics".

Letter "E" to be continued:

Revelation 14:6-12 · Jun 8, 2011

Letter "E" continued:

Frederick at Padua.

"... Innocent III endeavored, at the Lateran Council of 1215, to secure uniformity by a series of severe regulations defining the attitude of the Church to heretics, and the duties which the secular power owed to exterminate them under pain of forfeiture, and this became a recognized part of canon law; but in the absence of active secular cooperation its provisions for a while remained practically a dead letter. It was reserved for the arch-enemy of the Church, Frederic II, to break down, throughout the greater part of Europe, the particularism of local statutes, and place the population at the mercy of such emissaries as the popes might send to represent them. It was requisite for him to acquire the favor of Honorius III to secure his coronation in 1220; and when the inevitable rupture took place, it was still necessary for him to meet the charge of heresy so freely brought against him by manifesting special zeal in the persecution of heretics, though doubtless, if left to himself, philosophic indifference would have led him to tolerate any form of belief that did not threaten disobedience to the ruler."

"In a series of edicts dating from 1220 to 1239 he thus enacted a complete and pitiless code of persecution, based upon the Lateran canons. Those who were merely suspected of heresy were required to purge themselves at command of the Church, under penalty of being deprived of civil rights and placed under the imperial ban; while, if they remained in this condition for a year, they were to be condemed as heretics. Heretics of all sects were outlawed; and when condemned as such by the Church they were to be delivered to the secular arm to be burned. If, through fear of death, they recanted, they were to be thrust in prison for life, there to perform penance. If they relapsed into error, thus showing that their conversion had been fictitious, they were to be put to death. All the property of the heretic was confiscated and his heirs disinherited. His children, to the second generation, were declared ineligible to any positions of emolument or dignity, unless they should win mercy by betraying their father or some other heretic. All "credentes", fautors, defenders, receivers, or advocates of heretics were banished forever, their property confiscated, and their descendants subjected to the same disabilities as those of heretics. Those who defended the errors of heretics were to be treated as heretics unless, on admonition, they mended their ways. The houses of heretics and their receivers were to be destroyed, never to be rebuilt. Although the evidence of a heretic was not receivable in court, yet an exception was made in favor of the faith, and it was to be held good against another heretic. All rulers and magistrates, present or future, were required to swear to exterminate with their utmost ability all whom the Church might designate as heretics, under pain of forfeiture of office. The lands of any temporal lord who neglected, for a year after summons by the Church, to clear them of heresy, were exposed to the occupancy of any Catholics who, after extirpating the heretics, were to possess them in peace without prejudice to the rights of the suzerain, provided he had offered no opposition. When the papal Inquisition was commenced, Frederic hastened, in 1232, to place the whole machinery of the State at the command of the inquisitors, who were authorized to call upon any official to capture whomsoever they might designate as a heretic, and hold him in prison until the Church should condemn him, when he was to be put to death."

"This fiendish legislation was hailed by the Church with acclamation, and was not allowed to remain, like its predecessors, a dead letter. The coronation-edict of 1220 was sent by Honorius to the University of Bologna to be read and taught as a part of practical law. It was consequently embodied in the authoritative compilation of the feudal customs, and its most stringent enactments were incorporated in the Civil Code. The whole series of edicts was subsequently promulgated by successive popes in repeated bulls, commanding all states and cities to inscribe these laws irrevocably in their local statute-books. It became the duty of the inquisitors to see that this was done, to swear all magistrates and officials to enforce them, and to compel their obedience by the free use of excommunication. In 1222, when the magistrates of Rieti adopted laws conflicting with them, Honorius at once ordered the offenders removed from office; in 1227 the people of Rimini resisted, but were coerced to submission; in 1253, when some of the Lombard cities demurred. Innocent IV promptly ordered the inquisitors to subdue them; in 1254 Asti peacefully accepted them as part of its local laws; Como followed the example, September 10, 1255; and in the recension of the laws of Florence made as late as 1355, they still appear as an integral part. Finally, they were incorporated in the latest additions to the Corpus Juris as part of the canon law itself, and, technically speaking, they may be regarded as in force to the present day."

"This virtually provided for a very large portion of Europe, extending from Sicily to the North Sea. The western regions made haste to follow the pious example. Coincident with the Treaty of Paris, in 1229, was an ordonnance issued in the name of the boy-king, Louis IX, giving efficient assistance by the royal officials to the Church in its efforts to purge the land of heresy. In the territories which remained to Count Raymond his vacillating course gave rise to much dissatisfaction, until, in 1234, he was compelled to enact, with the consent of his prelates and barons, a statute drawn up by the fanatic Raymond du Fauga of Toulouse, which embodied all the practical points of Frederic's legislation, and decreed confiscation against every one who failed, when called upon, to aid the Church in the capture and detention of heretics. In the compilations and law books of the latter half of the century we see the system thoroughly established as the law of the whole land, and in 1315 Louis le Hutin formally adopted the edicts of Frederic and made them valid throughout France."

"In Aragon Don Jayme I, in 1226, issued an edict prohibiting all heretics from entering his dominions, probably on account of the fugitives driven out of Languedoc by the crusade of Louis VIII. In 1231, in conjunction with his prelates, he drew up a series of laws instituting an episcopal Inquisition of the severest character, to be supported by the royal officials; in this appears for the first time a secular prohibition of the Bible in the vernacular. All possessing any books of the Old or New Testament, ''in Romancio'', are summoned to deliver them within eight days to their bishops to be burned, under pain of being held suspect of heresy. Thus, with the exception of farther Spain and the Northern nations, where heresy had never taken root, throughout Christendom the State was rendered completely subservient to the Church in the great task of exterminating heresy. And, when the Inquisition had been established, the enforcing of this legislation was the peculiar privilege of the inquisitors, whose ceaseless vigilance and unlimited powers gave full assurance that it would be relentlessly carried into effect. ..." [THE INQUISITION OF THE MIDDLE AGES; BOOK 1 - ORIGIN AND ORGANIZATION OF THE INQUISITION; CHAPTER VII.; 6; SECULAR LEGISLATION OF FREDERIC II; Henry Charles Lea. V.1 Chapter VII [pp 305-368]; pp 320-324 quoted from] - http://www.historyofthepopes.com/Inquisition-in-the-Middle-Ages/7/6-SECULAR-LEGISLATION.html

[see also: "A history of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages"; Henry Charles Lea. V.1 Chapter V, Persecution pp 209-242; pp 221 for "Frederick" and "death by fire"]:

http://ia600204.us.archive.org/11/items/historyi01leahuoft/historyi01leahuoft.pdf or here: http://collections.stanford.edu/pub...(creatorBrowse)=Lea,+Henry+Charles,+1825-1909

What is noticed of the word "extirpating"?

Consider the words of "Innocent IV" again in "Ad Extirpanda" in its true and unhidden meaning.

Do the words not resound of Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877-4/#post57686428

Do they also not resound of the methods of David of Augsburg?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877-4/#post57686656

Those answers will be left for the reader to consider and decide.

Letter "E" to be continued:

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