Absolutely SICK.

crazyfingers · Jan 17, 2003

Texas Lynn, here is an interesting, somewhat related story

The Secret War on Condoms

lisa03wilson · Jan 17, 2003

By that action, the anti-aborts proved their rhetoric about "the chidren" is hollow. They could care less about the children. the only purpose of such legislation is to control women.

be careful when making general statements like this. it may be true for some people, but hardly true for many others. I'm anti abortion, and I couldn't care less about controling women, I'm a woman myself. If this were an issue that only had to do with the woman, I wouldn't care, but I truly believe that the child is alive, and deserves the same protection offered to anyother person. general statements like that don't really prove anything and just make people who know they're wrong (ie prolifers who don't want to control women) less willing to listen to any of your other arguments.

The Simple Plan · Jan 17, 2003

Just so I can get a feel of viewpoints here.

1. Is there a suggestion/view held that contraception is tantamount to abortion?

2. If not, are there any acceptable forms of contracpetion?

3. Does one consider coitus to be only for the purpose of procreation?

4. Does the Western thinking against contraception also apply to couples in countries who can only have one child, or indeed universally to those who due to medical reasons, i.e. can only deliver by caesarian and have reached maximum deliveries by this method, have to have coitus with contraception?

Please bear with me if I don't respond, I'm just trying to gauge what the thoughts are here.

Stay Blessed
Dave 

brewmama · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by Texas Lynn
It's rather obvious they don't.  Why do the phony anti-abortion clinics want to know the race of the father then? 

Why then did President Clinton have couples who made these agonizing decisions based on medical needs with him as he announced his veto?  Because your callous attitude is based on false information, that's why.  The law has no business being involved in these matters.

Then why not put an exception into the law agreeing to protect it?  Obviously, because the antis do not want to.

I have no idea. Why does ANYONE ask questions about race? How can that possibly be construed to mean they don't care about the mother? Do pro-abortion clinics warn the women they supposedly care so much about about the increased risk of breast cancer, depression, suicide and infertility from abortion?

President Clinton never did an honest thing in his life, so why ask this? If what you mean by "medical needs" is that an abnormality was found that convinced those parents that the baby didn't deserve to be born I might believe it, but I can guarantee you as a health professional that it is never necessary to kill the baby to protect the health or life of the mother (when it is in the third trimester.)To put it in would make any prohibition a farce, as I have already said, because if the woman doesn't want to be pregnant any more then they would use this phrase. That's why it's ridiculous to put it in. There is no point in making the law in that case. If you still don't get this, never mind, we could go around in circles forever, and has been pointed out, it is off topic.

Texas Lynn · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by lisa03wilson
be careful when making general statements like this. it may be true for some people, but hardly true for many others. I'm anti abortion, and I couldn't care less about controling women, I'm a woman myself. If this were an issue that only had to do with the woman, I wouldn't care, but I truly believe that the child is alive, and deserves the same protection offered to anyother person. general statements like that don't really prove anything and just make people who know they're wrong (ie prolifers who don't want to control women) less willing to listen to any of your other arguments.

Then I would say to you if that is a sincere statement of your beliefs then you should not obtain an abortion.  However, if you are indeed honest about not wanting to control women, then you should remain silent about how others approach the issue either in general or in regard to an unwanted pregnancy and you should oppose restrictive abortion legislation.  If you then do not do these things, you will have been shown to have been less than candid on your description of your position.

 

brewmama · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by The Simple Plan
Just so I can get a feel of viewpoints here.

1. Is there a suggestion/view held that contraception is tantamount to abortion?

2. If not, are there any acceptable forms of contracpetion?

3. Does one consider coitus to be only for the purpose of procreation?

4. Does the Western thinking against contraception also apply to couples in countries who can only have one child, or indeed universally to those who due to medical reasons, i.e. can only deliver by caesarian and have reached maximum deliveries by this method, have to have coitus with contraception?

Please bear with me if I don't respond, I'm just trying to gauge what the thoughts are here.

Stay Blessed
Dave 

According to the doctrine of the RCC, contraception is tantamount to abortion. The rhythm method is acceptable, I'm not sure if there are others, not being Catholic.

Otherwise, things that kill the embryo are considered abortion, such as the IUD and morning after pill, and this new idea. Things that prevent conception are not necessarily considered abortion.

Christianity has always maintained that sex is a sacred part of marriage, but belongs ONLY in marriage. Children have always been seen as a blessing and gift, and families have always been the center of society. It is only in the recent past that (parts of) society has deemed children as a burden, and something to be gotten rid of. The whole purpose of sex is procreation, (which you may notice has shifted to "reproduction") but since the advent of birth control and abortion, self-serving gratification overrides everything else. This is considered spiritually wrong. Children should be welcomed into the world, but now the vernacular is that they should be "wanted", or if they are not wanted they should be destroyed.

What's interesting is that so many things happening in our culture today were predicted by the Pope in Humanae Vitae, such as disintegration of the family and marriage, and men abandoning their roles in the family.   

brewmama · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by Texas Lynn
Then I would say to you if that is a sincere statement of your beliefs then you should not obtain an abortion.  However, if you are indeed honest about not wanting to control women, then you should remain silent about how others approach the issue either in general or in regard to an unwanted pregnancy and you should oppose restrictive abortion legislation.  If you then do not do these things, you will have been shown to have been less than candid on your description of your position.

 

It is not possible to sit by and allow such flagrant immorality and evil without comment. To use that logic, people who didn't own slaves prior to the civil war, didn't actually murder Jews or Poles in Germany, didn't massacre Indians in this country, (take your pick of atrocity) shouldn't have said or done anything, other than "well I won't murder Jews or Indians or own slaves, you do what you want."

Susan · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by The Simple Plan
Just so I can get a feel of viewpoints here.

1. Is there a suggestion/view held that contraception is tantamount to abortion?

At the VERY least, any method that kills/harms/dislodges a human embryo, no matter how young, so it has no hope of survival IS abortion. Some of us (including me) go farther on our personal convictions and believe that any time humans interfere with the procreative process in any way, that we have potentially prevented the existence of a human being who had every right to exist.

2. If not, are there any acceptable forms of contraception? [/B]

This depends on what your personal convictions are of in the sanctity of life and when exactly life begins. If you believe that existence does not begin until fertilization and the formation of the embryo, then there are some methods open to you. However if you believe that there is a "potential for existence" before the embryo itself is formed (as I and many others do) then NO, there are none.

3. Does one consider coitus to be only for the purpose of procreation? [/B]

Yes. I do.

4. Does the Western thinking against contraception also apply to couples in countries who can only have one child, or indeed universally to those who due to medical reasons, i.e. can only deliver by caesarian and have reached maximum deliveries by this method, have to have coitus with contraception? [/B]

Have these people not heard of abstinence and self-control? :sigh:

Susan · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by brewmama

Otherwise, things that kill the embryo are considered abortion, such as the IUD and morning after pill, and this new idea. Things that prevent conception are not necessarily considered abortion.

Christianity has always maintained that sex is a sacred part of marriage, but belongs ONLY in marriage. Children have always been seen as a blessing and gift, and families have always been the center of society. It is only in the recent past that (parts of) society has deemed children as a burden, and something to be gotten rid of. The whole purpose of sex is procreation, (which you may notice has shifted to "reproduction") but since the advent of birth control and abortion, self-serving gratification overrides everything else. This is considered spiritually wrong. Children should be welcomed into the world, but now the vernacular is that they should be "wanted", or if they are not wanted they should be destroyed.

Amen.

Susan · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by brewmama
It is not possible to sit by and allow such flagrant immorality and evil without comment. To use that logic, people who didn't own slaves prior to the civil war, didn't actually murder Jews or Poles in Germany, didn't massacre Indians in this country, (take your pick of atrocity) shouldn't have said or done anything, other than "well I won't murder Jews or Indians or own slaves, you do what you want."

Again, amen.

Good posts.

chickenman · Jan 17, 2003

It is not possible to sit by and allow such flagrant immorality and evil without comment.

some people don't think its immoral or evil, I certainly don't think the drug being talked about here is immoral or evil, because it causes no suffering

TheBear · Jan 17, 2003

"Have these people not heard of abstinence and self-control?"

Is this practical between young, healthy, married couples?

brewmama · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by Susan
Again, amen. Good posts.

Thank you Susan! :wave:

brewmama · Jan 17, 2003

Originally posted by chickenman
some people don't think its immoral or evil, I certainly don't think the drug being talked about here is immoral or evil, because it causes no suffering

 

It only causes loss of human life, thought by some to be immoral.

chickenman · Jan 17, 2003

I don't consider it to be human life until it has the characteristics that make it human, its a potential human, not really a human

gwyyn · Jan 17, 2003

 
The post implying that families of places where their family size is limited by government or medical reasons having not heard of abstinence or self control is what I am referring to here.
ok this bothers me, the first person quoted asking about families who are limited by either government or medical reasons on the number of children they have.  and the response was abstinence and self control.  I take it so after 5 years of marraige a couple whose had their limit is no longer to have intercourse because they may get pregnant.  This sounds ridiculous, and with beliefs like that wouldn't it encourage adultry??

as for the contraceptive issue, it does not bother me to take contraceptives.  I was first placed on them for health reasons and then chose to take them in the beginning of my marriage.  To me it's not wrong to prevent something that one's not either financially or maturely ready for.

 

grrrr one of these day's i'll figure out how to quote correctly

Susan · Jan 18, 2003

Originally posted by TheBear
"Have these people not heard of abstinence and self-control?"

Is this practical between young, healthy, married couples?

Why, yes, it is both practical and possible.

Dewjunkie · Jan 18, 2003

Originally posted by Susan
Why, yes, it is both practical and possible.

You obviously aren't married.

 

Dewjunkie · Jan 18, 2003

In my opinion, if the pill's function is to prevent an embryo from embedding, it is not any different from using a condom or taking a pill or shot to prevent fertilization in the first place. I don't think it is abortion any more than stopping fertile sperm from reaching a viable egg (which I don't think is abortion).

I don't think life can be defined by "potential for life", as then anything that could hinder future procreation (exposure to radiation, vasectomy, hysterectomy, wearing whitie-tighties) would be considered abortion. Being a man that has endured the big V (flashbacks; shudder), and still has sex with his wife, I doubt seriously that I am guilty of abortion every time I do so. If "potential for life" is an acceptable definition of life, then "potential for risk" would have to be an acceptable argument for contraception.

GirlGeek53 · Jan 18, 2003

Here is something I ran across earlier today that I think pretty much puts abortion into perspective.

Jan 22, 2003 will mark the 30th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that began what many have termed the "American holocaust." This is a call to all Christians to be in prayer between now and the 22nd. Petition God with all your heart that he will intervene and do something to show this nation that abortion is a horrible crime against life. Ask him to convict the hearts of the doctors who perform abortions with tremendous guilt so that they might stop killing the unborn. Please forward this webpage to all your friends.

U.S. Abortion Deaths Compared to U.S. War Deaths.
Each " i " symbol represents 10,000 people killed.

Revolutionary War - 4,435 deaths.
i

Civil War (both sides) - 498,332 deaths.
iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

World War I - 116,708 deaths.
iiiiiiiiiiii

World War II - 407,316 deaths.
iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Korea - 25,604 deaths.
iii

Vietnam - 58,168 deaths.
iiiiii

Total killed due to abortion since 1973 - Present, over 40,000,000 deaths.
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Absolutely SICK.

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