Have you seen this woman??

it's entering in to the love of God that enables us to worship Him.

talk to them about the difference between a stream and a river.

a stream we can safely walk in without worry because we're always in control of our feet.
but a river is only safe for getting your feet wet, and that's all that most people are willing to do when it comes to worship. To really get into a river is to surrender your control, immerse yourself, float or swim along, and enjoy the power that is beyond your direction. That's God power!

talitha said:

pdudgeon, that's good.. but for their benefit, what does that mean in a practical sense, both for worship-teamers and for the rest of the congregation?

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to worship in the stream (getting wet while being in control) is what most people do. that's not worship, that's still centered around us.

to worship in the river is to worship God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. That's God-centered worship
so you put your whole heart in, you put your soul in, you engage your mind upon what the words of the song say, and you engage all the strength of your will to be the embodyment of what the words are saying.

this is worship. this is entering into the court of God's temple, where we come apart from the world and it's cares, to join together as one people to set whole our attention upon God. into His sanctuary where we worship Him for who He is, and then into the Holy of Holys where we commune with Him, face to face and heart to heart.

But because we are engaging everything we have to enter into the worship thru song, praise, and prayers, we must be wise in what we are agreeing with--that the music chosen for worship is spiritually sound, agrees with the bible, that those who lead us have prepared themselves beforehand spiritually, musically, and with love for God, just as the priests did in the OT.

worship and the preparation for it is much more than just learning a song or singing together. What we do here is practice for what we will be doing in heaven.

the goal in worship is to sing to God and worship Him here as though we were already in heaven standing before His throne, surrounded by all our brothers and sisters in Christ, all the angels, all the elders, united together in our love for Him forever.

Personally, IMO, I think the whole idea of worship “flow” is a bogus spiritual (not to mention unbiblical) concept. I do think, however, that when the presence of the Lord is recognized in a congregation there will be a response, with or without musical instruments, manipulative emotional flow, or even a “worship leader”. I can worship God without any of these “aids”—heck, I should be able to worship God in the middle of a disaster:
True, New Testament worship (i.e., in spirit and truth), the kind that the Bible talks about, has nothing to do with a worship team or a talented band or a good looking worship leader. It has to do with what happens inside the heart (spirit) of the individual.

~Jim

pdudgeon said:

But because we are engaging everything we have to enter into the worship thru song, praise, and prayers, we must be wise in what we are agreeing with--that the music chosen for worship is spiritually sound, agrees with the bible,

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What style of music is spiritually sound? Just curious to hear what you think....

To me the flo is not just worship but a way of life. Being partially immersed doesnt constitute the whole submersion. And being submerged in Christ to use a biblical term is abiding in Him. Bringing every thought captive to Christ during the week completes worship.

The flow of the river of life can be looked at like the turning of wood into stone that happens when a petrified wood forms. All the natural elements are slowly removed and replaced by the flow of water thru it. Like this we ourselves are changed to living stones and of these stones a spiritual house is built.

JimB said:

Personally, IMO, I think the whole idea of worship “flow” is a bogus spiritual (not to mention unbiblical) concept. I do think, however, that when the presence of the Lord is recognized in a congregation there will be a response, with or without musical instruments, manipulative emotional flow, or even a “worship leader”. I can worship God without any of these “aids”—heck, I should be able to worship God in the middle of a disaster:

True, New Testament worship (i.e., in spirit and truth), the kind that the Bible talks about, has nothing to do with a worship team or a talented band or a good looking worship leader. It has to do with what happens inside the heart (spirit) of the individual.

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Hello JimB, you know, when I read your response, immediately the Holy Spirit reminded me of how silly King David danced around in the spirit, when the Ark of the Covenant was brought to into the city of David. Did you know that he danced before God in his underwear, out in public?

When David explained to his wife, Michal the daughter of Saul, he put it this way; "therefore will I play before the LORD.

What do you say to that? If King David was a man after God's own Heart, should not we be the same way?

Love ya!

look said:

Hello JimB, you know, when I read your response, immediately the Holy Spirit reminded me of how silly King David danced around in the spirit, when the Ark of the Covenant was brought to into the city of David. Did you know that he danced before God in his underwear, out in public?

When David explained to his wife, Michal the daughter of Saul, he put it this way; "therefore will I play before the LORD.

What do you say to that? If King David was a man after God's own Heart, should not we be the same way?

Love ya!

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I think you have parroted the typical P/C interpretation of David's dance. The Bible does not endorse what King David did in his underwear. What do you think your church would do if a person got so caught up in his exuberance that he stripped down to his underwear in church? My (educated) guess is that he would be ushered out the door and my further guess is that you would be glad he was. In fact, my guess is that no P/C would allow such an exhibition in their church service ... especially if he needed a change of underwear. Personally, I don't think you would do it (although I could be mistaken).

FYI, the Bible is neutral in its assessment of what David did. It simply tells us what he did without commentary and further relates (without commentary) that his wife found it objectionable (and rightly so, considering David’s track record with women … IMO, her view of David dancing around clad only his his Fruit-of-the-Loom before the admiring eyes of the young women would make any wife suspicious, especially if her husband had a libido the size of David's).

So, I find your interpreation of David's dance a bit, well, misguided. Using it as an excuse for bad behavior in a worship service does not fly. IMO.

(Love U 2 ... not the band, but YOU!)

~Jim
　

Hello JimB, I hope that you are not offended in my attempts to say that we should worship God with all of our hearts (as well as all of our might and strength), I was using David's worship style as an example of unrestrained worship. Who is to say that David didn't dance under the Holy Spirit?

Anyway, I would rather be compared with King David than King Saul, wouldn't you?

Act 13:22 God removed Saul and made David their king. God spoke favorably about David. He said, 'I have found that David, son of Jesse, is a man after my own heart. He will do everything I want him to do.'

And seriously, I do mean that I love you as well as the rest of my brethren that I haven't had the pleasure to meet. I can do that because God's love was shed abroad in my heart.

Love ya!

PS... Perhaps you should lay aside all of the religious training of King David that you were taught, by men such as yourself, and read again the historical account of King David's life as recorded in God's Word... I doubt that you would say to David's face in Heaven, before Jesus, what you just said to me...

Having said that, let it be known that I will not indulge in any attempts to draw me into a theological argument or match. Let us walk in love, putting our brethren ahead of our own personal feelings... Hurt feelings just means that your love hasn't been perfected yet. Remember, perfected love casts out fear and we are not to be found with fear in us.

look said:

Hello JimB, I hope that you are not offended in my attempts to say that we should worship God with all of our hearts (as well as all of our might and strength), I was using David's worship style as an example of unrestrained worship. Who is to say that David didn't dance under the Holy Spirit?

Anyway, I would rather be compared with King David than King Saul, wouldn't you?

Act 13:22 God removed Saul and made David their king. God spoke favorably about David. He said, 'I have found that David, son of Jesse, is a man after my own heart. He will do everything I want him to do.'

And seriously, I do mean that I love you as well as the rest of my brethren that I haven't had the pleasure to meet. I can do that because God's love was shed abroad in my heart.

Love ya!

PS... Perhaps you should lay aside all of the religious training of King David that you were taught, by men such as yourself, and read again the historical account of King David's life as recorded in God's Word... I doubt that you would say to David's face in Heaven, before Jesus, what you just said to me...

Having said that, let it be known that I will not indulge in any attempts to draw me into a theological argument or match. Let us walk in love, putting our brethren ahead of our own personal feelings... Hurt feelings just means that your love hasn't been perfected yet. Remember, perfected love casts out fear and we are not to be found with fear in us.

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I was not offended in the least. You are welcome to your opinion and I agree that we should worship the God we love with all our heart, soul, and mind. But some of us are not quite as exuberant as others and when we are worshiping God with all we are, to hyper worshippers we come across as vanilla and have a hard time convincing them that are as excited as they are about our faith. We just don't show it. It's the way God made us.

FTR, I used to believe in David's dance just as you do -- I was a Pentecostal preacher, pastored four AOG churches, for more than 30 years -- so of course, I was taught and believed that David's stripped-down dance was perfectly acceptable to God. I have since had a change of mind.

Maybe you are the one who needs to read the account again ... without your Pentecostal lenses.

Just sayin'.

~Jim
　
　

JimB said:

I think you have parroted the typical P/C interpretation of David's dance. The Bible does not endorse what King David did in his underwear. What do you think your church would do if a person got so caught up in his exuberance that he stripped down to his underwear in church? My (educated) guess is that he would be ushered out the door and my further guess is that you would be glad he was. In fact, my guess is that no P/C would allow such an exhibition in their church service ... especially if he needed a change of underwear. Personally, I don't think you would do it (although I could be mistaken).

FYI, the Bible is neutral in its assessment of what David did. It simply tells us what he did without commentary and further relates (without commentary) that his wife found it objectionable (and rightly so, considering David’s track record with women … IMO, her view of David dancing around clad only his his Fruit-of-the-Loom before the admiring eyes of the young women would make any wife suspicious, especially if her husband had a libido the size of David's).

So, I find your interpreation of David's dance a bit, well, misguided. Using it as an excuse for bad behavior in a worship service does not fly. IMO.

(Love U 2 ... not the band, but YOU!)

~Jim
　

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Thank you , for that viewpoint of David's dance . I never bought into the idea for myself but allow everyone to do what they see fit . I was afraid once of being kicked out of one group ( it would have been a blessing in hindsight ) because many of the group started marching around the meeting room during worship . I didn't want to look to see whether I was the only one still in my seat . I simply lowered my head and shut my eyes and talked to the Lord about what was happening . I couldn't get myself to participate because I knew that my only reason for doing so would to *not* look as being part of the "army" . It also wasn't how the Lord made me or grew me to be at the time .

talitha said:

*****

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Dude?

Well, I guess I could say that I am a pastor in the good old USofA and while the personal appearance of worship team members does not matter to most of us, it does seem to matter in some churches I have attended. In fact, some churches have strict dress codes for their worship teams.

~Jim
　
　

Behe's Boy said:

What style of music is spiritually sound? Just curious to hear what you think....

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The worship that is sound is the worship that God accepts. just like with Cain and Abel , God is pleased with some worship and pother worship he is not.
The way that people most commonly get off track is because they never ask or are even concerned with what God wants. They just worship the way that feels good to them.

Yitzchak said:

The worship that is sound is the worship that God accepts. just like with Cain and Abel , God is pleased with some worship and pother worship he is not.
The way that people most commonly get off track is because they never ask or are even concerned with what God wants. They just worship the way that feels good to them.

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The problem with this that we think God accepts the kind of worship we prefer ... of course.

~Jim