Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

Lysimachus · May 19, 2011

The Romans 11 Problem

Dispensationalists constantly appeal to Romans 11, and especially verse 26, to prove that the national state of Israel plays a role in Bible prophecy, and will be “saved” as a distinct and separate entity separate from the Church. However, we believe this theology is not based on a careful enough reading and study of Romans chapters 9-11.

The context of Romans 9-11 actually clearly teaches that the Olive Tree incorporates both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive Tree is ultimately Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of Israel. Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are not promised unconditionally to be grafted in again, rather "IF they abide not still in unbelief" (Romans 11:23), they will be grafted back in again. So the promise is clearly conditional. In addition, it might be added that when a Jew accepts Christ, he is automatically grafted into the Tree. But there is only one tree, NOT two trees, one for Israel and one for the Church, as dispensational ideology would have us believe.

Paul clearly teaches that "all Israel" (vs. 26) will not be saved until (Gr. Achri, "as far as") the "fullness of the gentiles come in" (vs. 25). This proves that Israel is composed of Gentiles, and this is why verse 26 says "And SO all Israel shall be saved". The Greek word "so" is Houtos, and it means "in this manner." In other words, "In this manner, this is how all of Israel will be saved". Dispensationalism would have us believe that this word "so" means "then". But that's not what the verse says. The House of Israel gets filled up with Gentiles, and it is the Church that becomes the operator of the vineyard, Israel. Paul's words can only be understood in the light of the rest of scriptures, otherwise, if one interprets Romans 11 by itself, they are susceptible to come to faulty conclusions, and ultimately, those faulty conclusions will force one to conclude that Paul contradicts himself with Galatians 3:28,29; Galatians 4:22-31; Ephesians 2:11-21; Ephesians 3:3-6; 1Corinthians 12:13; Romans 9:6-8, and a host of other texts.

We have to allow Paul to interpret Paul, and let him define what the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 means.

Now let me be clear on something. God will protect and save any Jew who accepts Christ, regardless of where he lives. God loves the Jewish nation just as much as He loves France, England, Japan, China, Australia, Spain, or any other nation.

- French will be saved, but not "France"

- English will be saved, but not "England"

- Americans will be saved, but not "America"

- Chinese will be saved, but not "China"

The same it will be with the Jewish nation. Jews will be saved, but not "The National Jewish State of Israel". God's "Israel" is no longer defined by a piece of real-estate in the Middle East or ethnic lineage. But those Jews will be grafted into the Body of Christ, which is the Church, the remnant of Israel. And THIS is "how ALL Israel will be saved". In THIS manner.

God will protect all faithful Jews.

Now we are NOT to negate the fact that there will be a remnant of literal Jews in the end. I believe this with my whole heart. I believe there will be a literal remnant of Jewish people. While God's covenant is closed to the National Establishment of Israel, mercy is still open to Jews on an individual basis.

The problem, however, has to do with how dispensationalists are "conceptualizing" it. One must first remove Dispensational goggles to ascertain the following:

These Jewish people who repent will be grafted into the parent stock, which is Jesus Christ, the embodiment of His Church, since the Church represents the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12). So this "remnant of Jews" is automatically, recognized in God's eyes, as "part of the Church"...not a separate body. If Christ recognized them as a separate body, this would contradict Ephesians 2:12-19; 3:6, which states unequivocally and unapologetically that the wall of partition has come crashing down at the cross, that "both have been made one", making "one new man", in "one body" and that the strangers have become "fellow citizens with the saints", and the Gentiles are now "fellowheirs", and of the "same body" in Christ Jesus.

The Church is the Church, no matter how many Jews make up of it, no matter how many remnant Jews in the end repent. Any Jew that accepts Christ is automatically grafted into the stock of Israel. It is now a spiritual concept, not a fleshly, literal concept based on ethnic lineage!

John the Baptist already taught that the "Axe was being laid at the ROOT of the tree" (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and Jesus said that the "fig tree" would grow no more fruit on it from that point forward and "forever" (Matthew 21:19). The fig tree was another national emblem of Israel, along with the olive tree (Hosea 10:1; Jeremiah 24:5; Hosea 9:10; Joel 1:7,12). This is why Jesus said "Your house is left unto you desolate"(Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35).

May the love for truth burn within our souls.

~ Lysimachus

Lysimachus · May 19, 2011

Dispensationalists try to accuse Historicists of God not really meaning what He says. But this is a diversionary tactic to avoid the real issues that are involved pertaining to these promises.

The question we should be really asking is: Does God ever break a promise or covenant with anyone? Or is it the people that choose to break covenants with God? Quite frequently we find the conditional element of the word “IF” and “THEN” associated with God’s promises to Israel. You will find numerous phrases scattered throughout the Old Testament such as “If ye hearken unto me, THEN….I will….”, which clearly demonstrate that all God’s promises are conditional based on Israel’s faithfulness to Him. This becomes embarrassingly simple logic that Dispensationalists have chosen to ignore.

One of the strongest examples can be found in 1 Kings 9:4-7 – “And IF thou wilt . . . do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever … But IF ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or YOUR CHILDREN, and will not keep my commandments … Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people.”

We see here how the conditions to these promises are clearly laid.

I ask the question, do dispensationalists really grasp the deep implications involved with these conditions? Or are they going to conclude that God’s conditions really don’t mean conditions? I propose that when the Lord establishes conditions for promises to be fulfilled, he means just what he says! And God has NEVER changed his conditions. God has always placed before all mankind the options of life or death. To have it any other way is to excuse the sins of national Israel, calling evil good and good evil, and making light of Israel’s rejection of the Son of God.

The verses cited cast but a small glimpse on the example of conditional promises given to Israel in the Old Testament. But there are many more. In Jeremiah 18:6-10, we see God addressing Israel and then comparing it to any nation that will repent or do evil in His sight. In Deuteronomy 7:8-12, we see Moses instructing the Children of Israel that if they would keep the commandments, the Lord would keep unto them the covenant which he swore unto their fathers! And on the other hand, continuing in Deuteronomy 8:1, 19 and 20, if they disobeyed God they would perish like the nations that they were to dispossess. This is not to mention the warnings that the land would spue them out also, as it had spued out their predecessors (Leviticus 18:26-28; 20:22).

Take specific note to the statements of the conditional nature of a great number of promises and prophecies made to the literal nation of Israel. In each case the fulfillment of the promise was conditioned on obedience: (a) their status as the chosen people, Ex. 19:5, 6; Deut. 28:9; (b) a great nation, Deut. 28:1, 7, 9, 10, 13 (compare verses 15, 25, 48); (c) a holy nation, Ex. 19:6; Deut. 28:9; (d) blessings, Deut. 7:9-14; 28:1-14 (compare verses 15-68); 30:16, 19; (e) the land, Deut. 8:1, 7-9; 30: 19, 20 (compare Lev. 18:26-28; Deut. 28:15, 64); 1 Kings 9:3, 6, 7; 1 Chron. 28:8; 2 Chron. 7:16, 19, 20; Eze. 33:24-26; 36:26-28; (f) the Davidic line of kings, 1 Kings 2:3, 4; 8:25; 9:4, 5; 1 Chron. 28:4-9; 2 Chron. 6:16; 2 Chron. 7:17-22; and (g) blessing to the nations, Eze. 36:23, 33-36; 37:23, 28.

But since the conditions laid forth were only partly met, the promises were only partially fulfilled in Hebrew history. We also see that Solomon was chosen “to be king over Israel for ever” (1 Chron 28:4), along with many more promises that his nation would prosper and stand for ever, yet after Solomon sinned against the Lord, these conditional promises were not fulfilled. After Solomon apostatized, and although he saw the folly of his ways before he died, his kingdom was divided and ten of the tribes were permanently lost to his dynasty. Now while it is true that his descendants ruled Judah as long as it lasted as a nation, the kingdom did eventually come to an end and the crown of David’s dynasty was removed “until he come whose right it is” (Ezekiel 21:27). This is referring to the divine Son of David (Matthew 21:5,9). Although Solomon and the royal line of David failed to realize and live up to the conditions of the promises laid forth, the prophecy of David’s seed meets its antitypical, unconditional fulfillment in Christ, who will yet rule over an eternal kingdom (Ps. 89:3, 4; Isa. 9:6, 7; Jer. 23:5; Luke 1:32, 33).

Take note to the following from Dr. Froom:

“Christian Church continues the Seed of Israel.—Jerusalem knew not the time of her visitation, and consequently her house was left to her "desolate" (Matt. 23:28), and the rejected Lord wept over her fate. Though the destruction was delayed forty years, there was no repentance to avert the nation's doom. There was no assurance, as before (Jer. 5:10, 18), that the destruction was to be only temporary. The servants who had repeatedly abused the prophets had finally crucified the Son of the Owner of the vineyard, and consequently were dispossessed. The Son Himself had pronounced sentence upon them: "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21: 43). Many were to come from the east and west to sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the place of the rejected children of the kingdom (Matt. 8:11, 12). These were to come from among the Gentiles and would prove themselves "Abraham's children" more truly than the Jews because they "would do the works of Abraham" (John 9:39).

When the great body of the professed seed of Abraham—the official body—rejected their King, the Mediator of the new covenant, they inevitably cut themselves off from the Messianic kingdom and the covenant relationship. The only Jews who retained these relationships were the remnant (Rom. 11:5), those who accepted their Messiah and became the nucleus of the Christian church; these were the true children of Israel. To them were added the Gentile converts, the "wild olive" branches who were grafted into the parent stock in place of the natural branches that had broken themselves off (Rom. 11:16-24).

Thus the rejection of the nation of Israel did not invalidate the prophecies or cut off the line of God's chosen people. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect" but "the children of the flesh" were replaced by "the children of the promise" (Rom. 9:6, 8)—the spiritual seed of Abraham. (Questions on Doctrine, pp. 226-227)

11822 · May 19, 2011

Lysimachus said:
The Romans 11 Problem

Dispensationalists constantly appeal to Romans 11, and especially verse 26, to prove that the national state of Israel plays a role in Bible prophecy, and will be “saved” as a distinct and separate entity separate from the Church. However, we believe this theology is not based on a careful enough reading and study of Romans chapters 9-11.

The context of Romans 9-11 actually clearly teaches that the Olive Tree incorporates both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive Tree is ultimately Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of Israel. Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are not promised unconditionally to be grafted in again, rather "IF they abide not still in unbelief" (Romans 11:23), they will be grafted back in again. So the promise is clearly conditional. In addition, it might be added that when a Jew accepts Christ, he is automatically grafted into the Tree. But there is only one tree, NOT two trees, one for Israel and one for the Church, as dispensational ideology would have us believe.

Paul clearly teaches that "all Israel" (vs. 26) will not be saved until (Gr. Achri, "as far as") the "fullness of the gentiles come in" (vs. 25). This proves that Israel is composed of Gentiles, and this is why verse 26 says "And SO all Israel shall be saved". The Greek word "so" is Houtos, and it means "in this manner." In other words, "In this manner, this is how all of Israel will be saved". Dispensationalism would have us believe that this word "so" means "then". But that's not what the verse says. The House of Israel gets filled up with Gentiles, and it is the Church that becomes the operator of the vineyard, Israel. Paul's words can only be understood in the light of the rest of scriptures, otherwise, if one interprets Romans 11 by itself, they are susceptible to come to faulty conclusions, and ultimately, those faulty conclusions will force one to conclude that Paul contradicts himself with Galatians 3:28,29; Galatians 4:22-31; Ephesians 2:11-21; Ephesians 3:3-6; 1Corinthians 12:13; Romans 9:6-8, and a host of other texts.

We have to allow Paul to interpret Paul, and let him define what the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 means.

Now let me be clear on something. God will protect and save any Jew who accepts Christ, regardless of where he lives. God loves the Jewish nation just as much as He loves France, England, Japan, China, Australia, Spain, or any other nation.

- French will be saved, but not "France"

- English will be saved, but not "England"

- Americans will be saved, but not "America"

- Chinese will be saved, but not "China"

The same it will be with the Jewish nation. Jews will be saved, but not "The National Jewish State of Israel". God's "Israel" is no longer defined by a piece of real-estate in the Middle East or ethnic lineage. But those Jews will be grafted into the Body of Christ, which is the Church, the remnant of Israel. And THIS is "how ALL Israel will be saved". In THIS manner.

God will protect all faithful Jews.

Now we are NOT to negate the fact that there will be a remnant of literal Jews in the end. I believe this with my whole heart. I believe there will be a literal remnant of Jewish people. While God's covenant is closed to the National Establishment of Israel, mercy is still open to Jews on an individual basis.

The problem, however, has to do with how dispensationalists are "conceptualizing" it. One must first remove Dispensational goggles to ascertain the following:

These Jewish people who repent will be grafted into the parent stock, which is Jesus Christ, the embodiment of His Church, since the Church represents the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12). So this "remnant of Jews" is automatically, recognized in God's eyes, as "part of the Church"...not a separate body. If Christ recognized them as a separate body, this would contradict Ephesians 2:12-19; 3:6, which states unequivocally and unapologetically that the wall of partition has come crashing down at the cross, that "both have been made one", making "one new man", in "one body" and that the strangers have become "fellow citizens with the saints", and the Gentiles are now "fellowheirs", and of the "same body" in Christ Jesus.

The Church is the Church, no matter how many Jews make up of it, no matter how many remnant Jews in the end repent. Any Jew that accepts Christ is automatically grafted into the stock of Israel. It is now a spiritual concept, not a fleshly, literal concept based on ethnic lineage!

John the Baptist already taught that the "Axe was being laid at the ROOT of the tree" (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and Jesus said that the "fig tree" would grow no more fruit on it from that point forward and "forever" (Matthew 21:19). The fig tree was another national emblem of Israel, along with the olive tree (Hosea 10:1; Jeremiah 24:5; Hosea 9:10; Joel 1:7,12). This is why Jesus said "Your house is left unto you desolate"(Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35).

May the love for truth burn within our souls.

~ Lysimachus

I see the point you're making and i think i agree, but isn't Israel still covered under end time prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet and therefore still the nation of Israel in Gods eyes and still his people?

11822 · May 19, 2011

I guess i could use quick reply, that would probably not post the entire quote. What is multi quote beside quote and quick reply? Is that how people are able to quote multiple people at the same time?

11822 · May 19, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
My goodness. Do some of you really have to quote a long post just to say a few sentences [post # 612 and 614]

I tried quick reply but quick reply doesnt contain any quote at all. How does someone respond to a quote from someone without reposting their entire quote?

sheina · May 19, 2011

11822 said:
I tried quick reply but quick reply doesnt contain any quote at all. How does someone respond to a quote from someone without reposting their entire quote?

In order to not have to quote an entire long post is to select the portions you wish to address and use the QUOTE icon on the editor. Reply with entire quote and select what you want to address and delete the rest.

Lysimachus · May 19, 2011

sheina said:
NO Gentile is "grafted into the house of Israel".

Romans 11:17

God must have branches in keeping with the root. Unbelieving Jews bear no resemblance to father Abraham who "believed God" (Gen. 15:6). The natural branches refer to Israel. The wild branches refer to the Gentiles. The cultivated olive tree refers to the place of Gods blessing. The wild olive tree is not the place of blessing (cf. Eph. 2:11-13) but branches from the wild olive tree are grafted into the cultivated olive tree and are then able to partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom. 11:17). Some of the natural branches were "broken off," and verse 20 gives the reason why ("because of unbelief"). Wild branches were "grafted in among them" because of faith in Christ--compare Rom. 9:30-32--and thus are in the place of blessing. Believing Gentiles are able to enjoy Gods salvation and God's righteousness and God's Spirit--see Gal. 3:14--that the blessings of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the Spirit through faith.

Romans Chapter 11

Well thank you for repeating everything I have believed and have asserted from day 1. I'm not sure how the above disqualifies my argument. The purpose is, we are all grafted into one tree, not two trees. But what is this tree?

Jesus Christ is this Tree. The phrase "spiritual Jew" may not exist in the Bible anymore than the term "millennium" exists in the Bible, yet the principle is still inherent in the message.

Since the Church represents the body of Christ, and Jesus Christ is the New Israel, then naturally every branch that is grafted into it is part of Israel.

Now there are 2 classes of Jews:

1. A fleshly Jew (1 Cor 10:18; Rom 9:6)
2. A spiritual Jew (Rom 2:28,29; Gal 3:29; 4:28)

We have irrefutable proof from the Scriptures that if you are in Christ, you are a Spiritual Jew, as Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all Israel:

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." (Luke 24:44)

Clearly then, all the promises concerning Israel by Moses and the prophets were fulfilled concerning Christ.

We must remember that Israel was a spiritual name given to a physical man named Jacob (Gen 32:28). It really means "Prince of God". A prince is the son of a king. Jesus is the Son of God. Jacob had 12 sons who later moved into Egypt. The descendants of these sons eventually multiplied into 12 tribes.

God told Pharaoh through Moses, "Israel is my son, even my first born...let my son go" (Exodus 4:22,23)

About 800 B.C., God spoke through Hosea saying "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt" (Hosea 11:1). Yet we know that by this time Israel had failed to live up to the spiritual meaning of its name.

About 800 years after Hosea's prophecy, we learn, "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king (Matthew 2:1). Herod felt threatened, so he sent soldiers who "slew all the children that were in Bethlehem." (v.16). Joseph was warned of the impending crisis in advance when "The angel of the Lord appeared to him, in a dream, saying, Arise and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word." (v. 13). So the family arose and "departed into Egypt" (v. 14)

Matthew writes that the child Jesus remained in Egypt "until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet saying, out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matthew 2:15). Notice that Matthew quotes Hosea 11:1--which originally referred to the NATION OF ISRAEL coming out of EGYPT--and actually declares it more perfectly "FULFILLED" in Jesus Christ! Please don't miss this important point that a prophecy in the Bible can have a dual application with both a literal and spiritual fulfillment.

The parallels are amazing. In the Old Testament, a man named Joseph has dreams and goes into Egypt to preserve his family (Gen 45:5). In the New Testament, another Joseph likewise had dreams and goes into Egypt to preserve his family (Matt 2:13)

When the young nation of Israel comes out of Egypt, God calls it "MY SON" (Ex 4:22). When Jesus comes out of Egypt, God says "Out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matt 2:15)

When Israel leaves Egypt, her people go through the Red Sea. The apostle Paul says they were "baptized unto Moses...in the sea" (1 Cor 10:2). Jesus is also baptized "TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS", and immediately afterward God proclaims Him "my beloved Son" (Matthew 3:15-17)

After the Red Sea crossing, the Israelite spend 40 years in the wilderness--led by the pillar of fire, God's Spirit. Immediately after baptism, Jesus is "led up of the Spirit into the wilderness" for 40 days! (Matthew 4:1,2)

At the end of the 40 years, Moses writes Deuteronomy. At the end of Jesus' 40 days, He resists Satan's temptations by quoting three scriptures--ALL from Deuteronomy!

In Psalms 80:8, God calls Israel a "vine" that He brought "out of Egypt." Jesus later declares, "I AM the TRUE VINE" (John 15:1).

In the Old Testament, the name "Israel first applied to ONE MAN: Jacob--representing his spiritual victory over sin. Even so, in the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the Israel who came "OUT OF EGYPT." He is the one victorious man who overcame ALL SIN!

Now think this through logically. If Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of Israel, according to Matthew's defining of Hosea 11:1, and if Israel was the vine, and now Jesus is the "TRUE" vine, and "WE are BRANCHES" (John 15:5), doesn't that make us part of Israel?

Of course it does!

How is this so difficult to comprehend?

In Galatians 3:29, Paul tells the Church: And if you are Christs, then you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Question: According to the Old Testament, who is the Seed of Abraham?

Answer: But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. (Isaiah 41:8) (See also 2 Chron. 20:7)

Thus we see that the seed of Abraham and Israel are one and the same, and if any gentile accepts Christ, they are automatically grafted into the House of Israel, which is spiritual Israelthe Church. It leaves one to wonder how these plain utterances escape the mind of a dispensational character, who indefatigably seeks to divide up Gods people into two camps as Israel and the church. Such a doctrine is opposed to the unity of Gods saints, and is to be rejected as unscriptural. When God spoke through His messenger Paul in saying There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:28), He meant just what He said.

There is no doubt that Israel will come back to their land. But this will take place at the END of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. At the end of the Millennium, Jesus will come back with ALL His saints, and He will place His feet on the Mount of Olives, and fight against the wicked nations that were resurrected (Zechariah 14:3-5; Revelation 20).

The Mount of Olives will be flattened like a great plain, and this is where the New Jerusalem will rest. Revelation 21:12 tells us that the New Jerusalem has "twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel". The city also has twelve foundations, and in them the names of the "twelve apostles of the lamb" (verse 14).

Therefore, the New Jerusalem is the Home of Israel. Yet Hebrews 12:22-23 tells us that the New Jerusalem is the "assembly and Church of the firstborn". This tells us that the New Jerusalem is the Home of the Church also. Revelation 14:1 tells us the 144,000 stand on Mount Sion, having the Father's name written in their foreheads". Yet we see Paul telling the Church (which was made up of Jews) that they are come unto "mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God Judge of all, and to spirits of just men made perfect." (Hebrews 12:22-23)

In Exodus 4:22, God calls "Israel...my firstborn". Yet in Colossians 1:18 and Hebrews 12:23, the Church is called Christ's "firstborn".

Interesting, isnt it?

The prophecies to the Nation of Israel will take place, and they will receive their land. Ezekiel 38: 8, 11 and 14 describes the Israelites as a people who "dwell safely... dwelling without walls" These words "safely" and "without walls [of protection]" cannot apply to modern Israelis who now "dwell" amidst terrorists, experiencing frequent attacks from Islamic Jihad, and witness friends and loved ones being detonated apart by suicide bombers.

The Old Testament prophecies to Israel are now realized beginning in the time of Jesus Christ, and will reach their acme (final fulfillment) at the End of the Millennium.

Bear in mind, the New Jerusalem will be the "home of the saints". It makes NO SENSE to have two cities. A city built by man, and a city built by God. It makes no sense to be having two Cities of Jerusalem on the earth.

mwood30 · May 19, 2011

Lysimachus said:
The Romans 11 Problem

Dispensationalists constantly appeal to Romans 11, and especially verse 26, to prove that the national state of Israel plays a role in Bible prophecy, and will be “saved” as a distinct and separate entity separate from the Church. However, we believe this theology is not based on a careful enough reading and study of Romans chapters 9-11.

The context of Romans 9-11 actually clearly teaches that the Olive Tree incorporates both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive Tree is ultimately Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of Israel. Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are not promised unconditionally to be grafted in again, rather "IF they abide not still in unbelief" (Romans 11:23), they will be grafted back in again. So the promise is clearly conditional. In addition, it might be added that when a Jew accepts Christ, he is automatically grafted into the Tree. But there is only one tree, NOT two trees, one for Israel and one for the Church, as dispensational ideology would have us believe.

Paul clearly teaches that "all Israel" (vs. 26) will not be saved until (Gr. Achri, "as far as") the "fullness of the gentiles come in" (vs. 25). This proves that Israel is composed of Gentiles, and this is why verse 26 says "And SO all Israel shall be saved". The Greek word "so" is Houtos, and it means "in this manner." In other words, "In this manner, this is how all of Israel will be saved". Dispensationalism would have us believe that this word "so" means "then". But that's not what the verse says. The House of Israel gets filled up with Gentiles, and it is the Church that becomes the operator of the vineyard, Israel. Paul's words can only be understood in the light of the rest of scriptures, otherwise, if one interprets Romans 11 by itself, they are susceptible to come to faulty conclusions, and ultimately, those faulty conclusions will force one to conclude that Paul contradicts himself with Galatians 3:28,29; Galatians 4:22-31; Ephesians 2:11-21; Ephesians 3:3-6; 1Corinthians 12:13; Romans 9:6-8, and a host of other texts.

We have to allow Paul to interpret Paul, and let him define what the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 means.

Now let me be clear on something. God will protect and save any Jew who accepts Christ, regardless of where he lives. God loves the Jewish nation just as much as He loves France, England, Japan, China, Australia, Spain, or any other nation.
- French will be saved, but not "France"

- English will be saved, but not "England"

- Americans will be saved, but not "America"

- Chinese will be saved, but not "China"
The same it will be with the Jewish nation. Jews will be saved, but not "The National Jewish State of Israel". God's "Israel" is no longer defined by a piece of real-estate in the Middle East or ethnic lineage. But those Jews will be grafted into the Body of Christ, which is the Church, the remnant of Israel. And THIS is "how ALL Israel will be saved". In THIS manner.

God will protect all faithful Jews.

Now we are NOT to negate the fact that there will be a remnant of literal Jews in the end. I believe this with my whole heart. I believe there will be a literal remnant of Jewish people. While God's covenant is closed to the National Establishment of Israel, mercy is still open to Jews on an individual basis.

The problem, however, has to do with how dispensationalists are "conceptualizing" it. One must first remove Dispensational goggles to ascertain the following:

These Jewish people who repent will be grafted into the parent stock, which is Jesus Christ, the embodiment of His Church, since the Church represents the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12). So this "remnant of Jews" is automatically, recognized in God's eyes, as "part of the Church"...not a separate body. If Christ recognized them as a separate body, this would contradict Ephesians 2:12-19; 3:6, which states unequivocally and unapologetically that the wall of partition has come crashing down at the cross, that "both have been made one", making "one new man", in "one body" and that the strangers have become "fellow citizens with the saints", and the Gentiles are now "fellowheirs", and of the "same body" in Christ Jesus.

The Church is the Church, no matter how many Jews make up of it, no matter how many remnant Jews in the end repent. Any Jew that accepts Christ is automatically grafted into the stock of Israel. It is now a spiritual concept, not a fleshly, literal concept based on ethnic lineage!

John the Baptist already taught that the "Axe was being laid at the ROOT of the tree" (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and Jesus said that the "fig tree" would grow no more fruit on it from that point forward and "forever" (Matthew 21:19). The fig tree was another national emblem of Israel, along with the olive tree (Hosea 10:1; Jeremiah 24:5; Hosea 9:10; Joel 1:7,12). This is why Jesus said "Your house is left unto you desolate"(Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35).

May the love for truth burn within our souls.

~ Lysimachus

Romans 11 is not a problem. Let's not twist 11:25 to try to squeeze "Gentiles" into being Israel. Let's take a look at the verse to see if that's even remotely possible.

25For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

The Israel that's being spoken of is the one that has been hardened. Are you saying that "Saved Gentiles are becoming part of hardened Israel"? That's an oxymoron.

The verse says that the hardened Jews will only remain hardened until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

Lysimachus · May 19, 2011

11822 said:
I see the point you're making and i think i agree, but isn't Israel still covered under end time prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet and therefore still the nation of Israel in Gods eyes and still his people?

Here are a few verses to consider:

When Jesus was speaking to the leaders of the Jewish Nation, He said:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:37-39)

We see that Christ WOULD have gathered Israel together as a hen gathers her chicks on under her wings.

But they would not.

Therefore, the House of Israel is left desolate. Notice that the Temple was not destroyed until 70 A.D., therefore, Jesus is speaking about "spiritual desolation" here. The glory of God was departing from Israel.

Israel would no longer see Him until He comes in the clouds of glory. But then it is too late, just like Caiaphas would see Christ coming in the clouds of Glory.

"Jesus saith unto him [Caiaphas], Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

Concerning the literal nation of Israel:

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [the literal nation of Israel] to the uttermost." (1 Thess 2:14-16)

Only Jews who repent will be grafted back into the stock of the true Israel, the true seed, Jesus Christ, the embodiment of His Church.

With all due respect, I believe that people like shaina, who think that Israel and the Church will be saved as two separate and distinct entities in prophetic history, are living in a fictitious world. Many people who think that Israel and the Church are separate will be in for a rude awakening.

It is such blinders as these (a deadly myopia) that prevents them from seeing that we, as Spiritual Jews, are to obey God's 10 Commandments.

Such individuals FAIL to comprehend the BEAUTY of the UNITY OF GOD'S PEOPLE.

God is NO respecter of persons.

Also, check out this article I wrote a while back:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7267700-32/#post56399924

It proves unequivocally that the Jewish Nation was the husbandman, and Israel was the vineyard. It says that strangers (gentiles) would come and take over the Vineyard, and till the soil, and end up being the ones to feed the flock.

CONCLUSION:

The Church (Jews and Gentiles combined) are the NEW HUSBANDMAN for the House of Israel.

Shaina can't see this because she does not read any of my materials.

Lysimachus · May 19, 2011

mwood30 said:
Romans 11 is not a problem. Let's not twist 11:25 to try to squeeze "Gentiles" into being Israel. Let's take a look at the verse to see if that's even remotely possible.
25For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

The Israel that's being spoken of is the one that has been hardened. Are you saying that "Saved Gentiles are becoming part of hardened Israel"? That's an oxymoron.

The verse says that the hardened Jews will only remain hardened until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

It is not an oxymoron. He's switching between the old Israel to the new Israel. In other words, How will the house of Israel be saved? By the coming in of the Gentiles. Once this "house" is filled up, the true Israel will be saved. It's very simple actually.

Romans 11 is actually overwhelming proof that God has forsaken the literal nation of Israel.

Israel as a nation is doomed. Jews as individuals will be saved into Jesus Christ, the true Israel of God.

There is a fleshly Israel, and there is a Spiritual Israel. The only Israel that will be saved is a Spiritual Israel, not a fleshly one.

11822 · May 19, 2011

sheina said:
In order to not have to quote an entire long post is to select the portions you wish to address and use the QUOTE icon on the editor. Reply with entire quote and select what you want to address and delete the rest.

Thanks.

Lysimachus · May 19, 2011

mwood30 said:
Romans 11 is not a problem. Let's not twist 11:25 to try to squeeze "Gentiles" into being Israel. Let's take a look at the verse to see if that's even remotely possible.
25For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

The Israel that's being spoken of is the one that has been hardened. Are you saying that "Saved Gentiles are becoming part of hardened Israel"? That's an oxymoron.

The verse says that the hardened Jews will only remain hardened until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

Also:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Question: If some are not all Israel who are of Israel, then clearly there are 2 Israels.

Paul makes it unequivocally clear that it is only that Israel which is the "children of promise" that are "counted for the seed".

It is also "IN ISAAC" that their seed shall be called. What did Paul say to the Galatian Church?

"Now we, brethren [the Church], as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Galatians 4:28)

Let it sink in. You will eventually see that there are 2 Israels. A spiritual and a fleshly. And the spiritual are those who are "in Isaac", something Paul also clearly attributed to the Galatians.

sheina · May 19, 2011

Lysimachus..

Romans 11 has no problem when one "rightly divides" the Word of Truth. The problem lies with those who interpret Scripture according to their theology, not seeking to interpret the Bible literally, nor to understand the Scriptures in their plain, normal, natural, obvious sense.

The problem isn't Romans 11 or dispensationalism...the problem is in the way in which the Bible is interpreted. As Dr. David Cooper has rightly stated: "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning. Unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths indicate clearly otherwise."

Instead, those who oppose dispensationalism follow this rule of Bible interpretation:

"If the plain sense does not fit my theological system, then I will seek some other sense, lest I should end up agreeing with the dispensationalists!"

Therefore, I didn't waste my time reading the article....I've seen hundreds of similar articles written by those who oppose dispensationalism.

mwood30 · May 19, 2011

Lysimachus said:
Also:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Question: If some are not all Israel who are of Israel, then clearly there are 2 Israels.

Paul makes it unequivocally clear that it is only that Israel which is the "children of promise" that are "counted for the seed".

It is also "IN ISAAC" that their seed shall be called. What did Paul say to the Galatian Church?

"Now we, brethren [the Church], as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Galatians 4:28)

Let it sink in. You will eventually see that there are 2 Israels. A spiritual and a fleshly. And the spiritual are those who are "in Isaac", something Paul also clearly attributed to the Galatians.

I'm well aware that Romans 9 talks about spiritual Israel. Yet Romans 11 talks about hardened Israel... that's not spiritual Israel.

11822 · May 19, 2011

Lysimachus said:
Here are a few verses to consider:

When Jesus was speaking to the leaders of the Jewish Nation, He said:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Matthew 21:43)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:37-39)

We see that Christ WOULD have gathered Israel together as a hen gathers her chicks on under her wings.

But they would not.

Therefore, the House of Israel is left desolate. Notice that the Temple was not destroyed until 70 A.D., therefore, Jesus is speaking about "spiritual desolation" here. The glory of God was departing from Israel.

Israel would no longer see Him until He comes in the clouds of glory. But then it is too late, just like Caiaphas would see Christ coming in the clouds of Glory.

"Jesus saith unto him [Caiaphas], Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

Concerning the literal nation of Israel:

"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them [the literal nation of Israel] to the uttermost." (1 Thess 2:14-16)

Only Jews who repent will be grafted back into the stock of the true Israel, the true seed, Jesus Christ, the embodiment of His Church.

With all due respect, I believe that people like shaina, who think that Israel and the Church will be saved as two separate and distinct entities in prophetic history, are living in a fictitious world. Many people who think that Israel and the Church are separate will be in for a rude awakening.

It is such blinders as these (a deadly myopia) that prevents them from seeing that we, as Spiritual Jews, are to obey God's 10 Commandments.

Such individuals FAIL to comprehend the BEAUTY of the UNITY OF GOD'S PEOPLE.

God is NO respecter of persons.

Also, check out this article I wrote a while back:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7267700-32/#post56399924

It proves unequivocally that the Jewish Nation was the husbandman, and Israel was the vineyard. It says that strangers (gentiles) would come and take over the Vineyard, and till the soil, and end up being the ones to feed the flock.

CONCLUSION:

The Church (Jews and Gentiles combined) are the NEW HUSBANDMAN for the House of Israel.

Shaina can't see this because she does not read any of my materials.

Isn't there prophecy concerning the rebirth of Israel and didn't we see it fulfilled in 1948? Isn't there also unfulfilled prophecy foretelling the whole world coming against Israel in war? And about the anti Christ sitting on the temple throne blaspheming God? Is that accurate and if so, is it talking about the Church or Israel?

sheina · May 19, 2011

11822 said:
Isn't there prophecy concerning the rebirth of Israel and didn't we see it fulfilled in 1948? Isn't there also unfulfilled prophecy foretelling the whole world coming against Israel in war? And about the anti Christ sitting on the temple throne blaspheming God? Is that accurate and if so, is it talking about the Church or Israel?

This is getting off the topic, but there is prophecy concerning Israel's rebirth and it was partially fulfilled in 1948. Israel is back in their land in unbelief. (Read Ezekiel 37..the prophecy of the "dry bones")

Zechariah 12-14 speaks of the future battle of Armageddon when all the armies of the world come against Israel.

Daniel 9, Matthew 24, & 2 Thessalonians 2 speaks about the Abomination of Desolation when the Anti-Christ sits in the Tribulation Temple and proclaims himself to be God.

There is only ONE Israel....the Israel which is located in the Middle East...this Israel is God's land. There is no "Spiritual Israel", "Spiritual Jew", etc. in God's plan for the ages.

There will be a literal 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth from Jerusalem (which is located in Israel).

11822 · May 19, 2011

sheina said:
This is getting off the topic, but there is prophecy concerning Israel's rebirth and it was partially fulfilled in 1948. Israel is back in their land in unbelief. (Read Ezekiel 37..the prophecy of the "dry bones")

Zechariah 12-14 speaks of the future battle of Armageddon when all the armies of the world come against Israel.

Daniel 9, Matthew 24, & 2 Thessalonians 2 speaks about the Abomination of Desolation when the Anti-Christ sits in the Tribulation Temple and proclaims himself to be God.

There is only ONE Israel....the Israel which is located in the Middle East...this Israel is God's land. There is no "Spiritual Israel", "Spiritual Jew", etc. in God's plan for the ages.

There will be a literal 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth from Jerusalem (which is located in Israel).

There is scripture that uses the analogy of being grafted into the vine, If it is an analogy forgive my horrible grammar. And the old Israel of the O.T. did contain Gods chosen people. Abraham and moses were both justified. Maybe God sees it as spiritual and in the flesh so to speak. We do join Moses and Abraham.

sheina · May 19, 2011

11822 said:
There is scripture that uses the analogy of the being grafted into the vine, If it is an analogy forgive my horrible grammar, and the old Israel of the O.T. did contain Gods chosen people. Abraham and moses were both justified. Maybe God sees it as spiritual and in the flesh so to speak.

That analogy is in Romans 11..and it's an olive tree. John 15 speaks about believers "abiding in the Vine" which is Jesus. But it's NOT Israel that the Gentiles are grafted into...it's Christ.

from scratch · May 19, 2011

11822 said:
Isn't there prophecy concerning the rebirth of Israel and didn't we see it fulfilled in 1948? Isn't there also unfulfilled prophecy foretelling the whole world coming against Israel in war? And about the anti Christ sitting on the temple throne blaspheming God? Is that accurate and if so, is it talking about the Church or Israel?

Why yes and it is a major reason I don't get into prophecy. News paper prophecy became a real problem for along time and I stll see people doing it. So read tomorroses paper and change your view. It stinks and destroys and causes doubt.

11822 · May 19, 2011

from scratch said:
Why yes and it is a major reason I don't get into prophecy. News paper prophecy became a real problem for along time and I stll see people doing it. So read tomorroses paper and change your view. It stinks and destroys and causes doubt.

I was only responding. I personally don't worry about prophecy much, i already know all i need to for now.

Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

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