Shall the clay question the Potter?

talitha said:

God would not violate our free will.

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Exodus 10:1

knowledgeIsPower said:

Exodus 10:1

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Also, the Flood comes to mind.

An interesting question. I think if God did not want to be questioned, he wouldn't have created free will.

razeontherock said:

Whether bugs are cool or icky, our curiosity, desire and capacity to learn all come from G-d. He has given us many hints to prompt our questioning. I say this because you seem to either be unfamiliar with this aspect of Him, or you are very familiar with this side of Him and merely don't recognize it IS G-d.

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The notion that somewhere, far underneath all phenomena is some underlying spectacular god type thing is certainly possible, but I have yet to see any evidence that really supports that proposition. As such, I mean, c'mon, what if I said your appreciation of music is derived from Snongo the God of Bagpipes. Might lead to some more questions right? Especially for Snongo.

talitha said:

So many times I see questions here at CF about what God should or shouldn't do - or whether God's actions or decisions are moral. In my heart I feel that a human has no right to question these things. And I don't understand how it's possible for a Christian to make a statement that God "shouldn't" do this or that. What say you?

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As a humanist and atheist, you should recognize that I don't believe or follow your book, so this is really a non-issue for me. This does seem to be something that is distressing to you, and certainly you have asked a good question. The only thing I might point out is, the fact you're even 'questioning' god should tell you something.

Originally Posted by knowledgeIsPower
Exodus 10:1

quatona said:

Also, the Flood comes to mind.

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Neither of these are an example of violating anyone's free will

quatona said:

Just for clarification: So you think the OP used it incorrectly?
If so, why don´t you tell her?

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No, the OP used it quite correctly. It is the responses going in an understandably wrong direction I am referring to. This sort of thing happens a LOT w/ the Bible, esp the OT

talitha said:

I believe that God honors those who wrestle with Him. But saying flat out that He is "wrong" or "immoral" - that seems like dangerous ground to me.

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Excellent way of clarifying the use of "question" in the Scripture of the OP. In my experience G-d will stand up to scrutiny, and doesn't consider Himself above it. Yet He will only respond when we approach Him the right way, which includes recognizing we first see Him as a Lion. W/o such humility, we can expect nothing. This is perfectly consistent w/ what we see in the atheists and former Christians here ...

Talitha, yes, unfortunately I think you did post this in the wrong subforum. There are a lot of people cashing in on the opportunity to air sour grapes and use the Old Testament as a punching bag. Sheer, consummate opportunism on their parts.

Tzaousios said:

Talitha, yes, unfortunately I think you did post this in the wrong subforum. There are a lot of people cashing in on the opportunity to air sour grapes and use the Old Testament as a punching bag. Sheer, consummate opportunism on their parts.

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Is it your opinion then that there are no valid criticisms of the OT? Do you really see it as an all or none proposition? One in which all who disagree are simply labeled as a "sour grapes" position. I find this to be an intellectually dishonest position, and will only serve to strengthen your bias and preclude any further understanding. It is opinions like yours that I have to actively force myself to not categorize all believers as closed minded ncortunately there are enough here on CF to offer balanced discussion.

CaliforniaSun said:

Is it your opinion then that there are no valid criticisms of the OT?

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Considering the presuppositional, negative apologetics of atheists, no I do not think that there is a valid criticism that they can make that will aid Christians in their beliefs.

CaliforniaSun said:

Do you really see it as an all or none proposition? One in which all who disagree are simply labeled as a "sour grapes" position.

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No, I think that an inability to come to terms with the text in relation to one's faith, and the subsequent jettisoning of parts or all of the text, is taking the easy way out.

CaliforniaSun said:

I find this to be an intellectually dishonest position, and will only serve to strengthen your bias and preclude any further understanding.

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Naturally, you would, since you disagree with the position that I take. Pray, tell what kind of "understanding" you hope to reach that does not involve Christians apostasizing, confessing atheism, or using the Old Testament as a convenient punching bag?

CaliforniaSun said:

It is opinions like yours that I have to actively force myself to not categorize all believers as closed minded ncortunately there are enough here on CF to offer balanced discussion.

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Like I said, sheer, consummate opportunism. You took the opportunity here rhetorically to say what you think about Christians for all practical purposes, did you not?

razeontherock said:

The Pi comment, that was figurative right? [ETA: addressed later]

Have you looked into the original language we have translated as unicorn and grasshopper? I'll spare you the boring details, but suffice it to say it does not support your view here.

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there is a trnaslation to support slavery and one to say its wrong.

razeontherock said:

If you were to seek the layer of "myth with moral," you would find each of these to be profound. No doubt some of them would also be making points you are already aware of. The overlap btw belief systems is striking, and speaks to me of G-d Himself.

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I understand quite well about myths with morals having read a lot of them and their analyses.

razeontherock said:

Buddhism is atheistic in your beliefs, or not? Are you at all familiar with Pure Land Buddhism or Thomas Merton?



Wait! Where's the referee icon? Goodness IS defined that way, within Christianity.



I agree with your final statement here, but everything leading up to that is what is termed as "doing violence to Scripture." I could compare this to what we have seen some crackpots do with ToE, and the conclusions they draw based on no information, but ... you get the idea?

Much due diligence to do before you should be opining on such things. No shame in that.

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Buddhism is atheistic in your beliefs, or not? Are you at all familiar with Pure Land Buddhism or Thomas Merton?

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Im roughly as theistic as a housecat. My spouse call me a Jack-Buddhist, his private joke of some sort. I tend to think somewhat as a Buddhist, but thats about it.


When I read the OT it is full of killing for as little as a glance back, or the sin of being firstborn. That is all figurative? If I describe the character of "god" as he comes thru in the OT to me, I'd probably get booted from the forum.

Hespera said:

there is a trnaslation to support slavery and one to say its wrong.

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No, that's not a translation issue, but an interpretation issue. Unicorns are a translation issue, with no real way of know what they might have been referring to.

Hespera said:

I understand quite well about myths with morals having read a lot of them and their analyses.

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I would think so, but your comments re: the OT don't reflect that.

Hespera said:

When I read the OT it is full of killing for as little as a glance back, or the sin of being firstborn. That is all figurative?

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There is no quick, easy answer. When I pointed out that the way to approach this is by beginning w/ John's Gospel, you replied you had no idea what I was talking about.

razeontherock said:

No, that's not a translation issue, but an interpretation issue. Unicorns are a translation issue, with no real way of know what they might have been referring to.

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come to think of it I did mean to say interpretation

razeontherock said:

I would think so, but your comments re: the OT don't reflect that.

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i think it just means i dont see the same things you do.