How many "Gods" can you count?

Now be HONEST OldShepherd and tell me. Is there a verse in the WHOLE Bible (including the Apocrypha) that says: "but these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is GOD the son, and that BELIEVING you may have life in his name?"

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That's essentially what's happening in John chapter 6. The biggest theme in the chapter, is Jesus affirming His equaity with God. (A similar theme occurs in John14---"Have I been with you so long and you do not KNOW Me? He who has seem Me, has SEEN the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father?' Do you not know that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?")

In chapter 6, the Jews were saying things like, "isn't this Jesus, son of Joseph and Mary, who we KNOW? (Isn't this the little KID we watched grow up?!) How does He now say, 'I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN'?" So Jesus is saying, "All the Father gives Me, will come to Me", and "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted by the Father", are simiply saying "I am in the Father and He is in Me---if you TRULY believe in the Father, HE will give you to ME!"

Jesus is the bread "come down out of Heaven" (6:33-34). The WORK of God is to believe in whom He has sent" (6:29). The WILL (Greek: "Thelema", desire) of God is that all the Father gives Him will come to Him and He will lose nothing, but lift them up the last day; that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life, and He wiill lift them up the last day.

HE will lift them up---He didn't say GOD would lift them up; this carries the same authority as when He said, "Destroy this temple (meaning, KILL ME) and _I_ will raise it up on the third day". Not GOD will, but _I_ will.

I MYSELF will raise him up on the last day. The entire chapter has Jesus declaring His equality with God...

Ed... I'm still waiting for you to answer the last response I gave you. Here, I'll post it again.

Some posters enjoy overlooking scripture. They love to believe only parts of it etc... Christ is clearly portrayed as the following throughout scripture:

Christ is God who became flesh. When He became flesh... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9. ---------->God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent. However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love. Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God... (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice) But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect.

So... here are some points for those claiming that Christ is not God who became subservient, and is now glorified again after defeating death. (He is God, just to make sure folks know what I'm saying here)

First of all... you have verses where Christ possesses the title KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. Yet... God will not give His glory to another... so how is it that Christ would have this title if He was not God? Also... the verse referring to Christ as the Lord of Glory... how do you explain that one?

Secondly... you have the debate over John 1. Some here assume that the Word came into a man... yet that is not what it says. The Bible says that the Word was God. It does not say it was an idea or some metaphysical entity. The Bible clearly, clearly says that the Word was God, period. Then... it says the Word became flesh... not came into someone's flesh. Also, the Bible says that His glory was that of the One and Only, which the LORD commands that He will never give to another in Isaiah 42:8. Here is a refresher reading for you: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ------> (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Thirdly... we have the following verses: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.--------> These verses clearly explain who had to die: The One who made the will (covenant). It is obvious... yet some do not believe... they say... what? What do you say?

Next we have these verses: (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)-------> Now... what do you guys have to say about this one? Is it a "bad" translation? Nope... God's word is truth... I believe it. If you believe that the new translations can be erroneous, then what is to keep the old ones from being skewed as well? (I'll give you a hint... God!!!) These verses, once again, portray Christ as was explained at the beginning of the post. He is God who became flesh... "today I have become your Father." The Father says of the Son: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever".

Here's another one: (Colossians 2:9)—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form-----------> Pretty self-explanitory isn't it?

How about this: (Acts 3:15)--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?) Once again... we have a verse indicating that Christ is the author of life... the creator... etc... like John 1... like Hebrews chapter 1.

Here you go: (Jude 1:4)-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)-------> What do you guys have to say about this one... isn't God our only Sovereign? Our ONLY Lord it claims... hmmm.... pretty powerful isn't it!

And finally... (at least for this post)... (Titus 2:13)--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

Need I say more about this last one? (Purify for HIMSELF... not someone else)

How about Zechariah 12:10-- "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a speirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced..." Or Zechariah 14:9--The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.------> Now, who do you suppose that is? Whose name is above every name? Who is going to be the King? In fact, who is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS?

Believe

FOW

Originally posted by fieldsofwind
Ed... I'm still waiting for you to answer the last response I gave you. Here, I'll post it again.

Some posters enjoy overlooking scripture. They love to believe only parts of it etc... Christ is clearly portrayed as the following throughout scripture:

Christ is God who became flesh. When He became flesh... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9. ---------->God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent. However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love. Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God... (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice) But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect.

So... here are some points for those claiming that Christ is not God who became subservient, and is now glorified again after defeating death. (He is God, just to make sure folks know what I'm saying here)

First of all... you have verses where Christ possesses the title KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. Yet... God will not give His glory to another... so how is it that Christ would have this title if He was not God? Also... the verse referring to Christ as the Lord of Glory... how do you explain that one?

Secondly... you have the debate over John 1. Some here assume that the Word came into a man... yet that is not what it says. The Bible says that the Word was God. It does not say it was an idea or some metaphysical entity. The Bible clearly, clearly says that the Word was God, period. Then... it says the Word became flesh... not came into someone's flesh. Also, the Bible says that His glory was that of the One and Only, which the LORD commands that He will never give to another in Isaiah 42:8. Here is a refresher reading for you: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ------> (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Thirdly... we have the following verses: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.--------> These verses clearly explain who had to die: The One who made the will (covenant). It is obvious... yet some do not believe... they say... what? What do you say?

Next we have these verses: (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)-------> Now... what do you guys have to say about this one? Is it a "bad" translation? Nope... God's word is truth... I believe it. If you believe that the new translations can be erroneous, then what is to keep the old ones from being skewed as well? (I'll give you a hint... God!!!) These verses, once again, portray Christ as was explained at the beginning of the post. He is God who became flesh... "today I have become your Father." The Father says of the Son: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever".

Here's another one: (Colossians 2:9)—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form-----------> Pretty self-explanitory isn't it?

How about this: (Acts 3:15)--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?) Once again... we have a verse indicating that Christ is the author of life... the creator... etc... like John 1... like Hebrews chapter 1.

Here you go: (Jude 1:4)-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)-------> What do you guys have to say about this one... isn't God our only Sovereign? Our ONLY Lord it claims... hmmm.... pretty powerful isn't it!

And finally... (at least for this post)... (Titus 2:13)--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

Need I say more about this last one? (Purify for HIMSELF... not someone else)

How about Zechariah 12:10-- "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a speirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced..." Or Zechariah 14:9--The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.------> Now, who do you suppose that is? Whose name is above every name? Who is going to be the King? In fact, who is the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS?

Believe

FOW

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Not that I'm taking sides on these issues, but isn't the above post being taken from thread to thread harassment (following a particular user with the same posts) as far as the forum rules are concerned?  I just want to understand the forum rules and when they are enforced and why they are not when they're not.

Don't get mad at me FOW I just want to understand the rules of the forums better so I don't get caught up in technicalities.

hmm..i thought this would be something regarding the pantheon. how disappointing...

*lol*

Originally posted by franklin
Simple math, that equals three God's !  The bible says there is only one God :

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

Jesus Himself even taught that there is only one God and not three!

That my friends is inspiration!  Good thread again Ed, keep up the good work!

FR

 

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How about 1x1x1 = 1

I don't see three.

Originally posted by edpobre


Ben, these verses do NOT even come close to saying that Jesus is God. You are bearing FALSE witness against Jesus by saying that Jesus was declaring EQUALITY with God in the above verses you cited.

The TRUTH is: Jesus SAID that by himself he could do NOTHING (John 5:19). Jesus also SAID that the Father is GREATER than all and GREATER than him (John 10:29; 14:28).

Which should I believe Ben: YOUR interpretation of what Jesus said or what Jesus HIMSELF said?

Ed

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It's time for an Aramaic lesson.

In Romans 10:9 Paul states:

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I asked a friend who is learned in Aramaic about this and he sent me the following:

Paul's proclamation that "Whoever confesses with their mouth that Jesus is Lord" in the Aramaic reads CONSISTENTLY "Whoever confesses with their mouth that Yeshu' is MORYO"

LITERALLY: "That Jesus IS LORD YHWH"



End of discussion!

Originally posted by edpobre

Your "learned" friend is WRONG. If "Lord" is YHWH and Jesus is  therefore, YHWH, who is the GOD who raised YHWH from the dead?

Are you telling me that apostle Paul is talking of TWO Gods?

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Not two Gods but two persons who make up the Godhead.

The bible teaches that there is one God (one 'what') who exists in three persons (three 'who's'). When we say there is only one God we are speaking of the 'who' of God. When we say that God exists in three persons we are speaking of the 'what' of God. You have to remember that 'persons' does not mean three persons walking around, but rather is formed and completed on the basis of relationships within the Godhead.

The bible teaches that the Father raised Jesus from the dead, it teaches that Jesus raised himself from the dead, and it teaches that the Holy Spirit raised him from the dead.
So what do you mean by, "who raised YHWH from the dead?"

Originally posted by edpobre
I have NEVER seen this formula used in the Bible. Matt. 28:19 states: "...baptizing them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit." The word "AND" that connects TWO items is usually interpreted to mean an ADDITION not multiplication.

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When the bible says to baptise them in this way it is basically just saying to baptise in the name of God which would include all three persons you mentioned.

I could be wrong Apologist but cn you show me where in the Bible the formula 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 is used?

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No, that "formula" is not in scripture. I used it to show that you don't have to say 1+1+1 = 3 because that is not the trinitarian view of God.

Your "learned" friend is WRONG. If "Lord" is YHWH and Jesus is therefore, YHWH, who is the GOD who raised YHWH from the dead?

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John2:19 "Destroy this body and _I_ will raise it up."

Jesus said, _I_ will raise up MY OWN body.

Does that answer your question, Ed?

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Note:&nbsp&nbspThis will be the last warning in requesting adherence to Rule 1. There will be no insulting, belittling remarks made against another member. Differing opinions may be expressed, but flaming will not be tolerated. Any further violations of this rule and the thread will be closed and/or warnings issued.

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[noflame][/noflame]

Are you a messenger SENT by God? Do you have Bible prophecy to testify for you? Apostle Paul is a messenger SENT by God and has Bible prophecy to testify for him. Why should I believe you?

Apostle Paul wrote that "God RAISED him from the dead...." (Rom. 10:9). And since the Bible teaches that there is ONLY ONE God (Is. 46:9), then Jesus could NOT be God.

Besides, Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Ed

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Hey---I was just quoting what Jesus SAID...

Originally posted by edpobre
Are you saying then that when apostle Paul wrote that "God RAISED Jesus from the dead." he meant that ALL three "persons" RAISED Jesus from the dead?
[/B]

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Did I say that? Paul said God raised Jesus from the dead that is true.

But you have to read all of scripture.

John 2:19-21 says that Jesus will raise His own body up:

"Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

Romans 8:11 says that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead:

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

So we have three accounts of three different persons raising Jesus from the dead.