Contract vs. Covenant - the REAL issue

Created2Write · May 12, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Wouldn't He know that also, though? He IS all knowing. Anyway...you can have your opinion.

But He still gives them the chance. If God knows person A is going to go to hell, why keep them alive? Because they still have the choice to accept Him. Just because He knew what their answer would be, doesn't mean He shouldn't give them the option of choosing what to say.

And thank you for giving me permission to have my opinion.

mkgal1 · May 12, 2011

About the question, "Do you want to be made well?" that Jesus had asked....I looked up a commentary by David Guzik

Jesus asked this same kind question on three other occasions. He asked it when John and James asked, through their mother, to be "top guys" in Jesus administration (Matthew 20:21; Mark 10:36); when two blind men cried out to be healed (Matthew 20:32, Mark 10:51; Luke 18:41), and when Jesus invited His disciples to come follow Him (John 1:38).
ii. This is an entirely fair question. So much of our petition and intercession before God is hampered because we have so little idea of what we really want.

That was really what I was expressing earlier....that it's important to know a person's intentions....desires....motivations. Another verse that goes along with this is James 1

James 1:2-8 said:
Dear brothers and sisters,[a] when troubles come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. 3 For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. 4 So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing.
5 If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. 6 But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.

FaithPrevails · May 13, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Hmmmm.....that is getting into a tricky area. We cannot assume a person's motives. That I know for sure...that is what is wrong....because of what I am saying....that we cannot always determine what is in a person's heart based on their actions.

This is the area of relationships (especially marriage) where the struggle is...IMO. Intentions cannot be left between them and God when the entire marriage is held together by intentions and commitment.....you see? That needs to be exposed.

I'm coming back into the conversation a bit late, but wanted to comment on this post. This is the area of the marriage where trust is imperative, IMO.

If we can't trust that our spouse's heart, attitude, and actions/behavior are genuine, then we need to identify why there is a lack of trust. Is it a behavior/attitude/shift in our own heart that needs to be addressed and adjusted or is there a past behavior/action that has caused the rift in trust?

For me, personally, I am going to accept that they mean what they say and do sincerely until I have been given reason to believe otherwise. If there was a past behavior/action that had been addressed and their behavior/actions had changed....I am going to believe that their heart is in the right place and they aren't just doing it to placate me. Certain behaviors can be a self-fulfilling prophecy and mistrust is one of them. If a person feels like no matter what they do, their spouse is always going to be suspicious or doubtful - then they are probably more likely to slip back into previous behaviors b/c they feel like it's not worth the effort if the effort is constantly called into question.

dallasapple · May 13, 2011

mkgal1 said:
I'm no good at this abstract discussion, so I will try to be more concrete in what I'm thinking on right now. Some people can make actual behaviors the "sin"....when really...the reaction towards those behaviors can actually be more detrimental to the marriage. For instance.....let's say the woman isn't as detailed. She may leave her spoon from stirring coffee on the counter after she uses it and walks away--never even realizing. The husband may have a certain radar for that and that spoon shines like a beacon to him when he walks into the kitchen....it may even be the ONLY thing he sees. He may ask her repeatedly to "PLEASE put your spoon away after you use it and wipe the granite down..." and he uses that as a gauge for her love for him. If she continually neglects to put her spoon away.....he views that as her not loving him....disrespecting him.....caring less about him and more about herself...when really, it's just that she doesn't even *see* it.

His zeroing in on this difference of theirs...and expecting her to conform to him and his ways, only tears them further apart.

This to me is 'reversed" as in the person leavign the spoon is NOT the one with any issue..

The one "zeroing" in ...posseses what I have started calling the 'critical spirit"..

If he feels "unloved" over a spoon or ANY nit picking micro managing issue such as that his "intentions' arent to love her OR to feel loved BY her....His intentions are to control.

If it reaches a point of being neurotic IMHO ..which your example is..the person handling the "spoon" is being stalked and "managed" and critisized..If she makes an effort to change that behavior for him?The person with the critical spirit such as that will NOT be satisfied..it will be something else after that..they won't say OH boy you DO REALLY love ME!!!If she manages the 'spoon" the way he feels "loved".

Dallas

chaz345 · May 13, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Hmmmm.....that is getting into a tricky area. We cannot assume a person's motives. That I know for sure...that is what is wrong....because of what I am saying....that we cannot always determine what is in a person's heart based on their actions.

Can we determine what's in someone's heart based on their words?

FaithPrevails · May 13, 2011

dallasapple said:
This to me is 'reversed" as in the person leavign the spoon is NOT the one with any issue..

The one "zeroing" in ...posseses what I have started calling the 'critical spirit"..

If he feels "unloved" over a spoon or ANY nit picking micro managing issue such as that his "intentions' arent to love her OR to feel loved BY her....His intentions are to control.

If it reaches a point of being neurotic IMHO ..which your example is..the person handling the "spoon" is being stalked and "managed" and critisized..If she makes an effort to change that behavior for him?The person with the critical spirit such as that will NOT be satisfied..it will be something else after that..they won't say OH boy you DO REALLY love ME!!!If she manages the 'spoon" the way he feels "loved".

Dallas

I believe Gary Chapman covers this in his Love Languages seminar. I *think* that was the one where I heard him use the analogy of his wife being a "drawer opener" and he was the "drawer closer" in their relationship. lol His point was that rather than letting it annoy him that she left drawers or cabinets ajar, he learned to just go behind her and close them up.

(No one stone me if I got the analogy/person/details wrong - you get the idea!)

dallasapple · May 13, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
I believe Gary Chapman covers this in his Love Languages seminar. I *think* that was the one where I heard him use the analogy of his wife being a "drawer opener" and he was the "drawer closer" in their relationship. lol His point was that rather than letting it annoy him that she left drawers or cabinets ajar, he learned to just go behind her and close them up.

(No one stone me if I got the analogy/person/details wrong - you get the idea!)

Right..these things will never end..you will never be happy..and Im sorry..they just flat out dont matter..seriously they are unimportant.

If it becomes a perpetual issue then you have made it that way for your self as far as Im concerned.

Dallas

FaithPrevails · May 13, 2011

dallasapple said:
Right..these things will never end..you will never be happy..and Im sorry..they just flat out dont matter..seriously they are unimportant.

If it becomes a perpetual issue then you have made it that way for your self as far as Im concerned.

Dallas

Spot on. I was the one that made it an issue the first time around. My ex aggravated it by intentionally doing things to push my buttons (I'm OCD, although mild) b/c he knew I obsessed about certain things. But, in the end, I learned that I need to fight hard to let go of issues that are only issues b/c of MY issues. lol

So, with my DH now, I am much more forgiving of stuff than I was the first time around. But, he also is much more considerate of the fact that these things make me bonkers. It's a running joke now at bedtime that he comes out of the bathroom and I remind him to close the bathroom door. :angel:

He likes all of the doors open (bathroom, bedroom, closet) - I only sleep with the bedroom door open b/c of the kids. The rest of the doors have to be closed. :sorry:

dallasapple · May 13, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
Spot on. I was the one that made it an issue the first time around. My ex aggravated it by intentionally doing things to push my buttons (I'm OCD, although mild) b/c he knew I obsessed about certain things. But, in the end, I learned that I need to fight hard to let go of issues that are only issues b/c of MY issues. lol

So, with my DH now, I am much more forgiving of stuff than I was the first time around. But, he also is much more considerate of the fact that these things make me bonkers. It's a running joke now at bedtime that he comes out of the bathroom and I remind him to close the bathroom door. He likes all of the doors open (bathroom, bedroom, closet) - I only sleep with the bedroom door open b/c of the kids. The rest of the doors have to be closed.

YOU nut! LOL!!!

Thats O.K Im a little "quirked" out sometimes too..I hang a pair of shorts or a rag over the VCR to block out the LAZER light beam in our room..and put the telephones(we have two in there ) in my drawer in the nightstand ..the LIGHT activiates my brain cells through my eyelids..thats not OCD but its something none the less..

My husband ???He puts them RIGHT back where they belong..usually before I get up..

Thats one of the ones we seem to "flow" like a river in synch on.

Dallas

LovebirdsFlying · May 13, 2011

Martingale said:
strawman.

Who CARES? This is a no-debate area. I really hate it when people call "strawman" or "red herring" in a discussion. It's not about proving who's right or wrong. We are all entitled to our own opinions in this forum.

I like the spiritual difference in covenant vs. contract.

Before Mike came along, it always seemed that to the other person, the marriage vows read:

For better or for worse--as long as things don't get so bad I actually have to work on it.
For richer or for poorer--as long as the money is spent on my needs, not yours.
In sickness and in health--as long as you don't get too sick.
To love and to cherish--as long as I'm on the receiving end of it.
Till I change my mind do us part.

chaz345 · May 13, 2011

The covenant versus contract thing really comes down to one simple difference.

Covenant is saying "I will do this, and this and that because it's the right thing to do. I'll do it to the best of my ability no matter what you do."

Contract is "I'll do x if you do y."

To me it's pretty clear which of those is Biblical and which isn't.

Of course in practice it's not that easy. Obviously it's easier and less work to do your part if your spouse is doing theirs. But there's absolutely nothing in Scripture that suggests that your "job" your obligation is in any way conditional upon what they do or don't do.

mkgal1 · May 13, 2011

dallasapple said:
The one "zeroing" in ...posseses what I have started calling the 'critical spirit"..

If he feels "unloved" over a spoon or ANY nit picking micro managing issue such as that his "intentions' arent to love her OR to feel loved BY her....His intentions are to control.

If it reaches a point of being neurotic IMHO ..which your example is..the person handling the "spoon" is being stalked and "managed" and critisized..If she makes an effort to change that behavior for him?The person with the critical spirit such as that will NOT be satisfied..it will be something else after that..they won't say OH boy you DO REALLY love ME!!!If she manages the 'spoon" the way he feels "loved".

Dallas

Right.....and it could be possible for the wife to zero in too and focus on the spoon each time (out of fear of letting him down--it will probably only be a short amount of time, since it goes against her natural grain).......but, is that really going to bond the two of them together? He's sending the message that there is something *wrong* with her. When....like you said, he is the one with the critical spirit.

I don't think I expressed myself very well.....but, I was trying to explain how commitment isn't necessarily shown in actions....but, more in attitudes. This husband's attitude should be that his wife is more important than a spoon on the counter......and she can try to *see* the spoon and remember to put it away, but that doesn't really reflect how much she loves him.

mkgal1 · May 13, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
Spot on. I was the one that made it an issue the first time around. My ex aggravated it by intentionally doing things to push my buttons (I'm OCD, although mild) b/c he knew I obsessed about certain things. But, in the end, I learned that I need to fight hard to let go of issues that are only issues b/c of MY issues. lol

So, with my DH now, I am much more forgiving of stuff than I was the first time around. But, he also is much more considerate of the fact that these things make me bonkers. It's a running joke now at bedtime that he comes out of the bathroom and I remind him to close the bathroom door. He likes all of the doors open (bathroom, bedroom, closet) - I only sleep with the bedroom door open b/c of the kids. The rest of the doors have to be closed.

dallasapple said:
YOU nut! LOL!!!

Thats O.K Im a little "quirked" out sometimes too..I hang a pair of shorts or a rag over the VCR to block out the LAZER light beam in our room..and put the telephones(we have two in there ) in my drawer in the nightstand ..the LIGHT activiates my brain cells through my eyelids..thats not OCD but its something none the less..

My husband ???He puts them RIGHT back where they belong..usually before I get up..

Thats one of the ones we seem to "flow" like a river in synch on.

Dallas

To me....those are great examples of an attitude of commitment....of figuring out ways that allow for things to flow for life. The effort is being put into how to make things work....not, "you always/never do THAT..." and tearing each other apart.

A contract would be:
I will have all the doors closed at bedtime.
I will have everything in it's place in the bedroom.

A covenant is:
I want for you and me both to be comfortable together at night.

dallasapple · May 13, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Right.....and it could be possible for the wife to zero in too and focus on the spoon each time (out of fear of letting him down--it will probably only be a short amount of time, since it goes against her natural grain).......but, is that really going to bond the two of them together? He's sending the message that there is something *wrong* with her. When....like you said, he is the one with the critical spirit.

I don't think I expressed myself very well.....but, I was trying to explain how commitment isn't necessarily shown in actions....but, more in attitudes. This husband's attitude should be that his wife is more important than a spoon on the counter......and she can try to *see* the spoon and remember to put it away, but that doesn't really reflect how much she loves him.

yes...I will put it this way..actions arent automatically the end all and be all...they arent the only thing that count..

Speaking of ..this topic."actions out of obligations"..or to "fullfill the contractual promises" and for only THAT reason isnt the greatest dynamic..

That "attitude"?..I'de rather not thank you very much.

..The actions will be "hollow" to me.

Dallas

FaithPrevails · May 13, 2011

chaz345 said:
The covenant versus contract thing really comes down to one simple difference.

Covenant is saying "I will do this, and this and that because it's the right thing to do. I'll do it to the best of my ability no matter what you do."

Contract is "I'll do x if you do y."

To me it's pretty clear which of those is Biblical and which isn't.

Of course in practice it's not that easy. Obviously it's easier and less work to do your part if your spouse is doing theirs. But there's absolutely nothing in Scripture that suggests that your "job" your obligation is in any way conditional upon what they do or don't do.

Yes - your summary above is the simplest way of putting it.

mkgal1 · May 13, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
Yes - your summary above is the simplest way of putting it.

Except that is focusing on what will be done...not attittude. It's works based.

chaz345 · May 13, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Except that is focusing on what will be done...not attittude. It's works based.

We're not talking about someone's salvation so works based is not necessarily a factor. We're talking about the state/quality of one's marriage which is entirely works/actions dependent. Especially when one's actions flow from their attitude.

chaz345 · May 13, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
Yes - your summary above is the simplest way of putting it.

Simple way to put it, but not necessarily easy to actually do. But it is none the less what we are supposed to try to do.

mkgal1 · May 13, 2011

chaz345 said:
We're not talking about someone's salvation so works based is not necessarily a factor. We're talking about the state/quality of one's marriage which is entirely works/actions dependent. Especially when one's actions flow from their attitude.

I'm aware of what we are discussing.....and it IS a factor.

Right.....actions flow from attitude....so, it's the attitude that ought to be the focus....NOT the other way around. The "do it until you FEEL it" way.

FaithPrevails · May 13, 2011

chaz345 said:
Simple way to put it, but not necessarily easy to actually do. But it is none the less what we are supposed to try to do.

I used the word simple b/c that was the word you chose - I wasn't calling your statement simple.

But, yes - sometimes what seems so simple is actually very difficult to master.

Contract vs. Covenant - the REAL issue

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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