Does morality exist without God?

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razeontherock

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So, if one must already be a believer to believe what's in the Bible, how does telling an unbeliever to read the Bible so he can become a believer make any sense?

I believe I already pointed out this is a catch 22, and breaking out of this cycle can be considered the greatest miracle. Even so, there is plenty in the Bible that is comprehensible from a surface reading.
 
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razeontherock

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Really, this sounds as if one can do little beyond wait for God to make a move, in the meantime simply using one's imagination to create mental images of what might be. I have to tell you, that may be 'faith', but it is very hard to make a sane and logical case for doing it.

Your reaction surprises me! Are you aware that the Biblical concept of "waiting upon the Lord" is an activity? Being sedentary and expecting G-d to DO something, ignores the fact that he gave US dominion. :idea: the Truth of the matter is "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you." (James 4:8) Or as my first Pastor paraphrased it, take one step towards G-d and He'll take 2 towards you.

Anyway, using your imagination to create mental images of what He may be like is idolatry, and a sure way to fend Him off.


Well, to be fair, Calvinists don't exactly say God created people specifically to send to Hell, but being omniscient, knows before he creates them which ones will go to hell, yet creates them anyway.

And their initial point is sound: being omniscient, God must know, did know, and will know, which humans will be saved and which will not, and while that does not negate free will, it does mean that God creates many individuals he knows specifically are destined for destruction even before he creates them.

Omniscience does not have to be defined this way :idea: In fact, doing so seems to both slander His character and negate the Gospel.
 
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razeontherock

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No, it totally makes sense to me. The question is, how do you become a believer, if you are an unbeliever and can't believe the Bible because you don't already believe?

This may be a more serious question than it first appears. Was does it mean that "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God?"
 
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selfinflikted

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I really hope you are not going to toss up the Old Testament punching bag next...

You're doing it again. Stop trying to mind read me.

So these are outlandish but not trivial?

How could a virgin giving birth, someone rising from the dead, or a deity be trivial? No, I wouldn't consider that trivial. I do consider then outlandish though. Not sure where the confusion is coming in.

Anyways, I do not see the point you are making in terms of evidence. How would resurrections and virgin births of Joe Schmoe happening all over the place be compelling evidence for you to believe?

If every Joe Schmoe rose from the dead, then there'd be nothing special about Jesus rising from the dead, now would it? I do not consider what is written in the Bible as evidence for much of anything, due to countless reasons.

I agree that your example was silly. In fact, I do not see what purpose it served other than to try rhetorically to associate its silliness/triviality/unreasonableness with the tenents of the Christian faith that are held dear.

It's silly because of why I said it's silly. Stop trying to assume my motivations. I've already told you that you are wrong.
 
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selfinflikted

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I believe I already pointed out this is a catch 22, and breaking out of this cycle can be considered the greatest miracle. Even so, there is plenty in the Bible that is comprehensible from a surface reading.

Comprehensible, yes, pretty much all of it. Believable, well, not so much (to me).
 
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Bombila

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Your reaction surprises me! Are you aware that the Biblical concept of "waiting upon the Lord" is an activity? Being sedentary and expecting G-d to DO something, ignores the fact that he gave US dominion. :idea: the Truth of the matter is "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you." (James 4:8) Or as my first Pastor paraphrased it, take one step towards G-d and He'll take 2 towards you.

That has not been my experience. Believe it or not, I was a Christian for the first part of my life, and like many, I cried out to God many times, without ever experiencing the slightest indication that I was heard.

Anyway, using your imagination to create mental images of what He may be like is idolatry, and a sure way to fend Him off.

Yet what else is one doing when trying to 'draw nigh to God', having no prior knowledge of what to expect in return?


Omniscience does not have to be defined this way :idea: In fact, doing so seems to both slander His character and negate the Gospel.

How else define omniscience? Either God knows everything and therefore has foreknowledge of the results of his experiment, or he deliberately veils his omniscience like a child hiding their eyes in expectation of a surprise, or God is not omniscient and really does not know the outcome. Is God omniscient or not?
 
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selfinflikted

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This may be a more serious question than it first appears. Was does it mean that "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God?"

It is a serious question.

I understand the phrase, and I have heard. But I've heard a great many things that simply aren't true, and I have no way to tell the difference. Thus, I need evidence. I keep asking for it, and get nothing. Even in this very thread, and my motives are called into question to boot! There's no winning.
 
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Tzaousios

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You're doing it again. Stop trying to mind read me.

Alright. I am glad that you do not want to use the Old Testament as a punching bag.

selfinflikted said:
If every Joe Schmoe rose from the dead, then there'd be nothing special about Jesus rising from the dead, now would it? I do not consider what is written in the Bible as evidence for much of anything, due to countless reasons.

I see. So, not only is "evidence" from tangible reality not compelling, scientific phenomena happening commonplace is not, and finally the written word is not. Basically, you have decided that nothing is or would be compelling for you to believe. Thus, it is the presupposition you have adopted, and from which you argue, no?

selfinflikted said:
If every Joe Schmoe rose from the dead, then there'd be nothing special about Jesus rising from the dead, now would it? I do not consider what is written in the Bible as evidence for much of anything, due to countless reasons.

Also, since you have recognized the uniqueness of these things, why do you still demand that they happen today and in common so that they can be "reasonable" and "compelling" for you to believe?

Tzaousios said:
I agree that your example was silly. In fact, I do not see what purpose it served other than to try rhetorically to associate its silliness/triviality/unreasonableness with the tenents of the Christian faith that are held dear.
selfinflikted said:
It's silly because of why I said it's silly. Stop trying to assume my motivations. I've already told you that you are wrong.

Fine. If that was not your motivation, why even use that as an example? Consequently, do you mean to say that the resurrection, virgin birth, and deity of Christ are not silly?
 
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selfinflikted

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Thank you.

I see. So, not only is "evidence" from tangible reality not compelling

You have tangible evidence that god is real?

scientific phenomena happening commonplace is not, and finally the written word is not. Basically, you have decided that nothing is or would be compelling for you to believe. Thus, it is the presupposition you have adopted, and from which you argue, no?

That is not at all whatI said. The only thing you've said here that is true is that I do not consider the Bible evidence.

Also, since you have recognized the uniqueness of these things, why do you still demand that they happen today and in common so that they can be "reasonable" and "compelling" for you to believe?

I never made such a demand, and as I already said, if those things did happen in everyday life, that would trivialize them. What I'm saying is, I have no evidence that these things actually happened, save the Bible. And I do not consider that evidence, as already stated.

Fine. If that was not your motivation, why even use that as an example?

To point out an example of what I consider "trivial". Are you really trying to keep up, because it seems like you aren't.

Consequently, do you mean to say that the resurrection, virgin birth, and deity of Christ are not silly?

They are not silly, in and of themselves, no.
 
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razeontherock

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That has not been my experience. Believe it or not, I was a Christian for the first part of my life, and like many, I cried out to God many times, without ever experiencing the slightest indication that I was heard.

This is rare, but we seem to collect a few like you here at CF. I'm always curious about what is going on, and cautious about thinking I might have any understanding at all. I do think there is something to be learned in cases like yours ...

Yet what else is one doing when trying to 'draw nigh to God', having no prior knowledge of what to expect in return?

This too is a critical element of "the Faith of Abraham:" he left everything he had, looking for what God would show him. In other words, he literally had no idea what to expect.

How else define omniscience? Either God knows everything and therefore has foreknowledge of the results of his experiment, or he deliberately veils his omniscience like a child hiding their eyes in expectation of a surprise, or God is not omniscient and really does not know the outcome. Is God omniscient or not?

This too is a significant question. I posit that any understanding one may come to, will not be adequately transferred to the next person. We can still gain perspective by sharing one another's findings.
 
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Tzaousios

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You have tangible evidence that god is real?

What I was talking about was if you had the opportunity to apprehend those things with your senses here and now.

selfinflikted said:
The only thing you've said here that is true is that I do not consider the Bible evidence.

Thus we are back at the beginning. If you saw resurrections, virgin births, and people with deity, they would no longer be unique, even though you could apprehend them with your senses. What use are these things to you if they happened now?

selfinflikted said:
Are you really trying to keep up, because it seems like you aren't.

Yes, I am trying to parse the differences that you supposedly have from the Hitchensite-Dawkinsite rhetoricians which I described above. I sincererly hope that you are different.

selfinflikted said:
They are not silly, in and of themselves, no.

I am glad to hear this. It sounds like you have the advantage over 3sigma on this point.
 
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selfinflikted

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What I was talking about was if you had the opportunity to apprehend those things with your senses here and now.

Then I would believe them.

Thus we are back at the beginning. If you saw resurrections, virgin births, and people with deity, they would no longer be unique, even though you could apprehend them with your senses. What use are these things to you if they happened now?

None, actually. Though, that kind of evidence would more than suffice, there are certainly other kinds of evidence, less extreme even, that I would surely consider. The problem here is, there is no tangible evidence. There is only personal anecdote. Those won't work for me, unfortunately. People often misunderstand their own feelings and emotions, and worse, lie.

Yes, I am trying to parse the differences that you supposedly have from the Hitchensite-Dawkinsite rhetoricians which I described above. I sincererly hope that you are different.

Well, you won't find me parroting those guys. I'm not even sure of who Hitchens is, and I've read only one Dawkins book. They certainly aren't my "leaders", as it seems you are suggesting.

I am glad to hear this. It sounds like you have the advantage over 3sigma on this point.

Perhaps. I can only offer my honesty and curiosity.
 
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razeontherock

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Though, that kind of evidence would more than suffice, there are certainly other kinds of evidence, less extreme even, that I would surely consider. The problem here is, there is no tangible evidence. There is only personal anecdote. Those won't work for me, unfortunately.

When those anecdotes are your's, personally, then they work - for you. Same as it ever was. And this is the point of the story of doubting Thomas.
 
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sandwiches

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When those anecdotes are your's, personally, then they work - for you. Same as it ever was. And this is the point of the story of doubting Thomas.

Well, the day I have those anecdotes to tell, it's the day I'll believe. Just don't be surprised when we don't take you at your word that your anecdotes are the truth.
 
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Bombila

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This is rare, but we seem to collect a few like you here at CF. I'm always curious about what is going on, and cautious about thinking I might have any understanding at all. I do think there is something to be learned in cases like yours ...

I don't think it is at all rare. I think many, many nominal Christians have exactly the same experience, and are agnostic in all but the final act of naming themselves as such. Many of those are ministers and priests and preachers, people who think long and hard on these things.

It may be rare at CF. CF is a special case, in that it used to have a very lively interaction between Christians of various sorts and non believers of various sorts, and there were many interesting Christian scholars here. There's an accepted board mythology about why that ended, and a banned mythology about why that ended, but the result is that what we are discussing right now, essentially apologetics, is almost certainly against CF current rules, and if it were in the appropriate place, Apologetics, I would not be permitted to speak with you there at all. That being the case, it would be rare that you meet people like me here.


This too is a critical element of "the Faith of Abraham:" he left everything he had, looking for what God would show him. In other words, he literally had no idea what to expect.

Perhaps we can leave Abraham to another day. :)


This too is a significant question. I posit that any understanding one may come to, will not be adequately transferred to the next person. We can still gain perspective by sharing one another's findings.

Sharing findings, imo, is a very good and human approach to any difficult subject. I've just run into a Christian in another thread who apparently does not believe God is omniscient, but is apparently constantly surprised by what people will do if left alone. It would be nice if we could start a thread on the nature of God, but it is hard to find an appropriate forum where the thread would be CF-legal.
 
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selfinflikted

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When those anecdotes are your's, personally, then they work - for you. Same as it ever was. And this is the point of the story of doubting Thomas.

Yes, exactly! So, again the question becomes, how do I get to experience god?
 
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razeontherock

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I think many, many nominal Christians have exactly the same experience, and are agnostic in all but the final act of naming themselves as such. Many of those are ministers and priests and preachers, people who think long and hard on these things.

BRAVO! I have witnessed ministers getting saved, and it's a beautiful thing. The fields that are white unto harvest are now in the pews, which I think just may be a valid indicator of where we are in the big picture.

It would be nice if we could start a thread on the nature of God, but it is hard to find an appropriate forum where the thread would be CF-legal.

EC, in our outreach section. Have you met Drich? He has personal experience that I would say surpasses my own, and is the only such person i know of.
 
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