What should God do with Atheists?

Tergle said:

You'ld rather a puppet master pulling his doll's strings? That seems to always be the God desired by atheists.

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Nope, not in my case. A God that is a friend and mentor is most preferable.

It is only the doctrine of eternal hell that make the puppet master preferable, and only as the lesser of two gigantic evils.

Good parents are all-loving and yet sometimes must watch their own children make tragic choices.

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Good parents don't create situations where their children may easily end up in a flaming pit or other terrible fate for an eternity with no chance of escape. Such parents, knowing in advance that this is a possibility, would not have children. That is, if they are all-loving.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I am still bewildered with the notion that people who do good and lead moral lives simply for the reward believe they are more deserving of it than people who do good and lead moral lives even believing the reward doesn't exist.

Ampersand said:

According to American Gods, my favorite novel, it's not who you believe in that determines your afterlife. It's what gods believe in you.

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I liked that book as well. Though not my absolute favorite, it definitely ranks in the top 20

hollyda said:

I am still bewildered with the notion that people who do good and lead moral lives simply for the reward believe they are more deserving of it than people who do good and lead moral lives even believing the reward doesn't exist.

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Yet, unbelievers motives are always in question.

selfinflikted said:

Yet, unbelievers motives are always in question.

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I know. What I find sad is many believers can't conceive why someone would want to be a decent person if they don't think they'll get something out of it. It's rather depressing, when you think about it.

hollyda said:

I am still bewildered with the notion that people who do good and lead moral lives simply for the reward believe they are more deserving of it than people who do good and lead moral lives even believing the reward doesn't exist.

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Now come on, atheists/agnostics are obviously just choosing the option where there's 80 years (if that) of uncertain future followed by the cold embrace of the grave just so they can do whatever hedonism they want*.

Far better to be one of those holy Christians, who are choosing the option where there's 80 years (if that) of God holding their hand through life followed by eternal life in a golden bling-house hand-picked by the boss because it's just the right thing to do.



*Many of them choose to live in the exact same manner as most Christians, the deviants!

Gabe7 said:

We all eventually meet our maker. Even Atheists. What is the moral thing for God to do with these people?

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i have a number of ideas about what a god should do, and not wait till people are dead to get around to it. i dont get the morality of hands-off, and in human society you refuse aid when someone needs it, you get in trouble. But we have higher standards for ourselves than we imagine for god.

As it is, i guess god being allah, what he will do is hang me by my hair in a fire coz i just wont believe in him. it. That is said to be its idea of morality.

Tergle said:

And the Bible is full of teachings that sin is as natural as walking.

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And since God created humans, one wonders why he made us to be so prone to sinning...

Tergle said:

You'ld rather a puppet master pulling his doll's strings? That seems to always be the God desired by atheists.

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Absolutely: the alternative is an eternity of suffering. Can you not see why an eternity of suffering isn't exactly desirable? Given the two options, free will + eternal suffering, or automatons + eternal happiness, though both are inherently evil, the latter one is more desirable - we may be automatons, but at least we'd be happy automatons. There'd be no pain or suffering in the world, no disease, no famine, no pestilence or war - sounds pretty good to me.

Tergle said:

Good parents are all-loving and yet sometimes must watch their own children make tragic choices. AND there is nothing a good parent would want to do about that other than to teach "the way" of a good life and future outcome. You can't even make a three-year old make the right choices without her grumbling.

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Because parents are not all-powerful, and cannot guide the child throughout her entire life - the child must learn from its mistakes so that it doesn't make them again. But this doesn't apply to God: being an all present, all powerful being, he can prevent us from harm. Pain only has a use when it stops us from damaging ourselves - but if God's there, he could stop us damaging ourselves. He could wink out fires before they burned people to death, he could ensure good crop growth and healthy childbirth, he could, if he so chose, ensure a beautiful and happy world with minimal effort on anyone's part.

Yet he doesn't.

Wiccan_Child said:

Absolutely: the alternative is an eternity of suffering. Can you not see why an eternity of suffering isn't exactly desirable? Given the two options, free will + eternal suffering, or automatons + eternal happiness, though both are inherently evil, the latter one is more desirable - we may be automatons, but at least we'd be happy automatons. There'd be no pain or suffering in the world, no disease, no famine, no pestilence or war - sounds pretty good to me.

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It's funny how lack of free will is constantly touted by Christians as a bad thing, and yet part of the reward for Christianity in the next life is, er, a lack of free will.

Or, if that is not the case, an existence where free will exists but no choices are wrong, which begs the question, why did God not make that existence in the first place?

selfinflikted said:

Yet, unbelievers motives are always in question.

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They are not always in question and neither do christians always live for reward...

hollyda said:

I know. What I find sad is many believers can't conceive why someone would want to be a decent person if they don't think they'll get something out of it. It's rather depressing, when you think about it.

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I agree that is upsetting, but it is comforting to know that such is the downfal of the individual and is not typical.

MoonLancer said:

Actually he is its architect. He created the forbidden fruit, placed it where it would be eaten. He knew all the factors that would lead to sin and yet did nothing different and allowed it to happen. He also made up the rules that would need to be followed in order to remove sin.

Sorry God doesn't get to be all powerful, and all knowing while still blaming the humans who didn't know any better AND still claim to be all loving.

Ether way you look at it, he ends up being a Monster or Incompetent.

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Ah, but you are looking at it from the angle that God intended for humans to become corrupted. Instead, he gave us free choice, which is the ability to choose right from wrong. You are correct, God did create evil, but without evil, there would be no free choice. So God created that to give Adam a choice. And the rules you are referring to aren't actually "made up". They are very logical when you think about it.

Gabe7 said:

We all eventually meet our maker. Even Atheists. What is the moral thing for God to do with these people?

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If the Christian God were real, I think it would be hard to decide what morality would be for God. Very little of the bible seems to meet my moral code so what I would think is the moral thing for him to do might not be what he would do.

I would prefer to have my soul dissolved into nothingness. No afterlife. I don't think I can fathom eternity and I don't know that I would want to live forever. Forever is so long and uncertain. I would hope that he would take atheists on merit alone. I don't reward my children for doing what their friends are doing just because they will fit in. I also don't reward my children for not being extra careful in the decisions that they make. I would hope that a God would consider it valuable that I did not fall for a man made understanding of him and that I questioned what others said about him. It would be great if he would value our pursuit to know the truth rather than to just guess at it.

Girder of Loins said:

Ah, but you are looking at it from the angle that God intended for humans to become corrupted. Instead, he gave us free choice, which is the ability to choose right from wrong.

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It's debatable that it was a free choice when the outcome is known in advance by the person setting up the test.

It certainly wasn't a fair choice. They certainly couldn't have really known what it was to do something "wrong", when the knowledge of what that was could only be obtained by failing the test.

bender said:

Are you familiar with the phrase: 'Does not compute'?

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_______

You are correct, God did create evil, but without evil, there would be no free choice.

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There doesn't need to be evil existing for there to be a choice, however, only the potential for it to exist. God could still have created us knowing that we'd only make the right choices. A unanimous choice is still a choice.

Besides, if evil is the disobedience of a command of God, then why doesn't God simply not issue any commands?

And the rules you are referring to aren't actually "made up". They are very logical when you think about it.

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The entire process of redemption is entirely instituted and mandated by God. He could dispose of it tomorrow if he wanted to, assuming he really is omnipotent. It's totally arbitrary.

Cabal

It's debatable that it was a free choice when the outcome is known in advance by the person setting up the test.

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Not it isn't... that doesn't follow.

It certainly wasn't a fair choice. They certainly couldn't have really known what it was to do something "wrong", when the knowledge of what that was could only be obtained by failing the test.

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That's not the story the bible tells.

Besides, if evil is the disobedience of a command of God, then why doesn't God simply not issue any commands?

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Because sin does not = disobedience and becuase disobedience is not inevitable.

That's not the story the bible tells.

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It appears to be.

If Adam and Eve did not know that disobeying God was wrong/evil, and obedience conversely right/good, then their disobedience was innocent, afaics.

briareos said:

Not it isn't... that doesn't follow.

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Funny how you don't actually show that.

But sure it follows. If God controls everything, then he made the setup knowing the outcome that would occur. Why could he not have made people who make the right choices? Instead he made people who made the wrong choices. Certainly damning the entire human race on the actions of a few is not even remotely fair, but then this is the deity who thinks judging children on the sins of their parents is fair, so I shouldn't really expect much.

That's not the story the bible tells.

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Really? The knowledge of good and evil was gained only as a consequence of failing the test. You can't truly know what a "wrong" choice is if you don't have the ability to comprehend what wrong is in the first place.

Because sin does not = disobedience and becuase disobedience is not inevitable.

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Then what is sin? Why was it a sin to not wear the right fabric at one point and then ok later? The only thing that changed was God's command.

If free will and choice is that important, I see only one problem: why set a limit to it?

Short answer: We don't know.

But surely God would be more angry at murderers and terrorists than people who simply picked the wrong religion and lived a good life. Even if they picked no religion, maybe they lived with the spirit of God and left the Earth in a better state than they were brought into. Or did more good deeds than bad?

briareos said:

I agree that is upsetting, but it is comforting to know that such is the downfal of the individual and is not typical.

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Perhaps not overwhelmingly typical, but I've encountered this mentality both in person and on these forums enough times to make me weep for humanity.