God Created the world 6000 years ago

Status
Not open for further replies.

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
It's not a question of respect or interpretation, it's whether or not you believe it. The Scriptures are clear that people didn't believe Christ for the same reason they didn't believe Moses. Nothing new under the sun.
But we aren't talking about believing Christ. We are talking about believing a 6,000 year old earth. Very different things.

The key issue is who you are going to believe, secular academics shrouded in unbelief and skepticism or the clear testimony of Scripture, I've always known that.
That's not the key issue. First, it's not between "secular academics shrouded in unbelief and skepticism". The people who first showed the earth was old were all Christians and most were ministers. The first people who accepted evolution were all theists. Including Darwin at the time he wrote Origin of Species

So the key issue is whether you are going to believe God or a human interpretation of scripture. And whether you are going to believe people who capitalize Scripture as though it were a god.
 
Upvote 0

pgp_protector

Noted strange person
Dec 17, 2003
51,706
17,624
55
Earth For Now
Visit site
✟392,742.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
But we aren't talking about believing Christ. We are talking about believing a 6,000 year old earth. Very different things.


...snip...

The problem is to some, Jesus is the Word, the bible is also the Word and the Word is God.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, they can't. Which is why Biblical scholars agree there are 2 creation stories


The Logos is Jesus. But that's not the other book. That's a man. But God has another book besides scripture.

most scholars believe there are two accounts yes, but one account is topical while the other is chronological. Easy.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟27,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
most scholars believe there are two accounts yes, but one account is topical while the other is chronological. Easy.
Topical? Ah you mean Genesis 1 and the framework hypothesis, discussing the creation under the headings of the forming then filling, of the sky and sea and land. I agree Genesis 2 is chronological, you obviously cannot have a narrative without a narrative sequence. Of course it doesn't mean the chronology is literal. Clearly there is a chronology a narrative sequence in the parable of the prodigal son but it doesn't mean we are to take it literally.
 
Upvote 0

ghendricks63

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2011
1,083
26
✟1,541.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
most scholars believe there are two accounts yes, but one account is topical while the other is chronological. Easy.

I love it. You seem to be a literalist who is willing to embrace a metaphor (topical) when it suits your needs. :p

Sorry but you can't argue against the very same thing you have just stated you embrace.
 
Upvote 0

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
I don't have anything against science, I do have something against those scientists who think that belief in God is a mental disorder and base their findings accordingly.
You have it backwards. They extrapolate beyond the findings to a belief that God does not exist. Science is agnostic. The reason scientists don't come down on Dawkins as a scientist is because he gets the science right. Dawkins fault is that he claims science backs his belief of atheism. It doesn't.

You don't what to argue against the science. What you want to do is argue against Dawkins claim that the extrapolation is science. I recommend the book Science Held Hostage by Van Till, Young, and Menninga.

Science is the Christians friend and if anything the Big Bang has proven the absolute necessity of a First Cause Creator.
That's what Hugh Ross and Eric Lerner think. However, it hasn't. There are other possible causes for Big Bang that is not God. Thus science remains agnostic.

I love science and I study it, but I do not put its findings over what is in the inerrant word of God,
And there we have the problem. You turn your back on God for a false idol.

the bible is truth
And what happened to God the Creator? And is it "the bible" or your interpretation of the bible?

I know this through my own empirical research and not only by faith.
Please cite your publications.
 
Upvote 0

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
most scholars believe there are two accounts yes, but one account is topical while the other is chronological. Easy.
You mean one focusses on day 6 while the other is chronological? Nope. Doesn't work. Too many contradictions still. 2 separate creation stories.
 
Upvote 0

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
That's not what it says, the form of the verb indicates past or past pluperfect. Once again you are making the text mean something that the author never intended, how many times do we have to do this before you learn?
As Assyrian noted, it is you who are diddling with the text. You are forgetting Genesis 2:18: "Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper who is just right for him." "

That's future tense. God is going to make a helper. Which means, of course, that the animals don't exist yet. Which means, in turn, that we have a man first, then the animals. A direct contradiction to the order in Genesis 1.

Thus the word vayitzer can signify either the simple past or past perfect. What that means practically is that formed could just as well have been translated as had formed. [19] The Hebrew supports either which would then yield a plausible translation, “Out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam…”
But not in conjuction with 2:18.

Sound exegesis and expositions are not dogma, they are foundational to sound doctrine.
I agree. Unfortunately creationists do it backwards. They have the dogma about creation first and then cut and paste the exegesis to fit.

In contrast, TEs 1) look at both God's books, not just one and 2) accept that there are 2 different creation stories but then ask: does it matter? That there are 2 different creation stories change any of the theological messages that are vital to Judeo-Christianity? The answer is "no".

Like I said, this is an all time low for you. This isn't an honest difference of opinion, it's a deliberate attempt to undermine confidence in the credibility of Scripture.

Actually, it's not. It undermines creationism, because creationism demands as single creation story. But undermining confidence in creationism is not the same as either undermining confidence in scripture or confidence that God created. Mark, you are linkiing things that are not logically linked.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
it's okay to add commentary to the text, it's God's word. God's word deserves our best understanding.
Not if you are insisting that the text is inerrant. Nor is it OK when you are diddling with the meaning of the text to fit your preconceived dogma.

The deity of Christ is stated many times in scripture. I agree that Trinity came from reflection on the question: What does Christ have to be in order for me to be saved? Answering that question led to the concept of Trinity, but then Trinity had to be supported by the Biblical verses. While there is no one verse equating God, Son, and Holy Spirit, there are verses equating God and Son, God and Holy Spirit, and Son and Holy Spirit. So you have all the elements, just not in one verse. No one changed the translation of any verse to make it be Trinity

Here in discussing the order of creation in Genesis 2 we have something different. We have the preconceived notion that the order of creation in Genesis 1 and 2 must be the same.

This is similar to what the Jehovah's Witnesses do with translating the Bible. They don't believe in Trinity. So they change the translation of John 1:1 to read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."
 
Upvote 0

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Sure we agree, science is really nothing more then epistemology (aka theories of knowledge).
Science is the study of the physical universe

After the Scientific Revolution this was, pretty much, the philosophy of science:
Rule 1: We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.
Rule 2: Therefore to the same natural effects we must, as far as possible, assign the same causes.
Rule 3: The qualities of bodies, which admit neither intensification nor remission of degrees, and which are found to belong to all bodies within the reach of our experiments, are to be esteemed the universal qualities of all bodies whatsoever.
Rule 4: In experimental philosophy we are to look upon propositions inferred by general induction from phenomena as accurately or very nearly true, not withstanding any contrary hypothesis that may be imagined, till such time as other phenomena occur, by which they may either be made more accurate, or liable to exceptions. (Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, Isaac Newton)​

As you say, those are Newton's rules. But they were not the philosophy of science. Aristotle's philosophy of science was to form a hypothesis by induction, then use deduction to deduce the same observations that led to the hypothesis. It was circular.

Before the Scientific Revolution the prevailing view was based on Aristotle's philosophy, these are his rules of knowledge:
That's not his "rules of knowledge". It's his list of causes. This is from my lecture to the graduate students on philsophy of science:

lExample: chameleon changing color bright green leaf to dull-gray twig
l1. Formal cause
l Generalization conditions change takes place -- the chameleon's skin color changes
l2. Material cause
l Substance in skin changes color
l3. Efficient cause
l Transition of leaf to twig; change in reflected light causes pigment color to change
l4. Final lCause
Escape detection by predators
l Not conscious
l Future state determines way present unfolds

The Final Cause is often called the Teleological Cause. Historically, it often implied an input of intelligence. But teleology as Aristotle stated it does not have to involve intelligence. Here it involves natural selection as the teleological cause.


Cause and effect, that's really all it is. What modernists have done has made God an unscientific cause by assuming only naturalistic causes. That's never been a rule of science, it's what you call a naturalistic assumption.

There are several problems with this paragraph. The big one for us theists is the assumption that "naturalistic causes" exclude God. That's not Biblical and contradicts standard Christian theology.

The second is that science doesn't "assume" natural causes. It turns out that natural causes are the only causes science can test for. It's a limitation of science that comes out of how we do experiments and is called Methodological Naturalism. What this means is that science is agnostic.

What you want to do is have direct action by God. You want God to fill a gap between 2 members of the universe (like 2 species) by miraculous action -- such as speaking men and women into existence. This is called god-of-the-gaps theology. It's terrible theology. It's non-Biblical and non-Christian. In fact, it was Christianity that taught science to fill gaps.

What is prevented is teaching kids falsified theories as tho they were true.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mallon
Upvote 0

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
475
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟63,625.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
That's not the key issue. First, it's not between "secular academics shrouded in unbelief and skepticism". The people who first showed the earth was old were all Christians and most were ministers.

I've been to Hugh Miller's cottage in fact I used to live only 15 miles away. Not only was he a renowned geologist he was a staunch churchman heavily involved in the Scottish Presbyterianism of his day. He was one of the founders of the Free Church of Scotland and was the editor of the denominations official newspaper.
 
Upvote 0

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
I've been to Hugh Miller's cottage in fact I used to live only 15 miles away. Not only was he a renowned geologist he was a staunch churchman heavily involved in the Scottish Presbyterianism of his day. He was one of the founders of the Free Church of Scotland and was the editor of the denominations official newspaper.
Oh yes. And the Adam Sedgwick who taught Darwin geology was Rev. Adam Sedgwick, also President of the Royal Geological Society. He helped correlate the geological column in England and the continent and formally announced, as President of the Royal Geological Society, that Noah's Flood as world-wide never happened. In 1831.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not if you are insisting that the text is inerrant. Nor is it OK when you are diddling with the meaning of the text to fit your preconceived dogma.

The deity of Christ is stated many times in scripture. I agree that Trinity came from reflection on the question: What does Christ have to be in order for me to be saved? Answering that question led to the concept of Trinity, but then Trinity had to be supported by the Biblical verses. While there is no one verse equating God, Son, and Holy Spirit, there are verses equating God and Son, God and Holy Spirit, and Son and Holy Spirit. So you have all the elements, just not in one verse. No one changed the translation of any verse to make it be Trinity

Here in discussing the order of creation in Genesis 2 we have something different. We have the preconceived notion that the order of creation in Genesis 1 and 2 must be the same.

This is similar to what the Jehovah's Witnesses do with translating the Bible. They don't believe in Trinity. So they change the translation of John 1:1 to read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

my commentaries state that genesis 1 and 2 are talking about different things. One is a topical account and the other a chronological account. But that does not seem to be good enough for this forum. Thats why I said it's okay to use commentary. What commentaries do you recommend that suggest that there is a contradiction? It should have been discovered before if this is true. If it's true it's not new and if it's new it's not true. Or is this just your opinion?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ghendricks63

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2011
1,083
26
✟1,541.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
my commentaries state that genesis 1 and 2 are talking about different things. One is a topical account and the other a chronological account. But that does not seem to be good enough for this forum. Thats why I said it's okay to use commentary. What commentaries do you recommend that suggest that there is a contradiction? It should have been discovered before if this is true. If it's true it's not new and if it's new it's not true. Or is this just your opinion?

It should have been discovered? I'm pretty sure it has been known pretty much from the beginning that they differ...LOL ;)
 
Upvote 0

theistic evol

Newbie
Apr 25, 2011
186
3
✟15,333.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
my commentaries state that genesis 1 and 2 are talking about different things. One is a topical account and the other a chronological account.
It doesn't work because both have a chronology in them. By "chronology" we mean a sequence of events, one following the other. The sequence of events in Genesis 2 is not tied to particular days, months, etc, but there is that sequence.

What commentaries do you recommend that suggest that there is a contradiction? It should have been discovered before if this is true.
Plain reading of the text shows the contradictions. And it was discovered before this. Augustine of Hippo talked about it back in 400 AD. Jewish rabbis have been talking about it even longer. It was in 1715 that it was first suggested that there were 2 different stories.

If it's true it's not new and if it's new it's not true. Or is this just your opinion?
It seems to be your opinion that if it's new it's not true. That's silly. That means we can't go to scripture and find new truths in it for our lives today.

Go to Barnes and Nobles and pick up any commentary on Genesis there. ALL them note the contradictions I have talked about and all of them say there are 2 creation stories.
 
Upvote 0

createdtoworship

In the grip of grace
Mar 13, 2004
18,941
1,758
West Coast USA
✟33,173.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It doesn't work because both have a chronology in them. By "chronology" we mean a sequence of events, one following the other. The sequence of events in Genesis 2 is not tied to particular days, months, etc, but there is that sequence.


Plain reading of the text shows the contradictions. And it was discovered before this. Augustine of Hippo talked about it back in 400 AD. Jewish rabbis have been talking about it even longer. It was in 1715 that it was first suggested that there were 2 different stories.


It seems to be your opinion that if it's new it's not true. That's silly. That means we can't go to scripture and find new truths in it for our lives today.

Go to Barnes and Nobles and pick up any commentary on Genesis there. ALL them note the contradictions I have talked about and all of them say there are 2 creation stories.

the only problem with your theory is it lacks citation. In order to be a legitimate theory you need to quote all of these commentaries you suggest and use it to prove your point. If you have none then thats a problem. If it's new it's not true and if it's true it's not new. We are not that smart in other words, everything goes about in seasons. Even theology.

here is a link that offers some interesting opinions regarding the text....

Don’t Genesis 1 and 2 contain contradictory accounts of creation?-JMM

here is some quotes from the link

By the simple phrase “male and female created He them,” we are not told how they were made or if they were created at the same time. There is only the indefinite statement that they were created.

In the second account, when the writer elaborates the story of mankind’s origin, it is explained in detail how man and woman were formed respectively. This is not a matter of inconsistency, but of a general statement followed by a detailed account, which is a common literary device in ancient Semitic writing. (6/74)

The critical contention that vegetation did not appear until after the creation of man in the second account, in contradistinction to the first account when it precedes man, is another alleged problem that has a ready solution.

Pieters points out: “The writer cannot have supposed that the absence of a farmer would prevent the growth of wild grass and plants; for everyone knows the contrary. The lack of a farmer accounts for the lack of farm plants only.” (26/78)

Cassuto looks at the problem from a more general standpoint and offers a very plausible explanation of why vegetation would seem to follow man in the second account:

“Here it is explained how they were planted—a general statement followed by a detailed description. What does the gardener do when he plants a new garden? Although he produces new trees from the soil, he does not create new species. Even so the Lord God did: in order to make the garden He caused good trees to grow out of its soil, of the species that He had already created on the third day.” (6/76–77)

It also should be noted that, although the growth of the shrubs and sprouting of the herbs are represented here as being dependent upon the rain and the cultivation of the earth by man, it must not be understood that the words mean there was neither shrub nor herb before the creation of man. The shrub and the herb of the field do not embrace the whole of the vegetable productions of the earth. (18/77)

An interesting botanical fact is that the plants which were created on the third day are those that are capable of reproducing themselves afterwards by means of seed. This would, therefore, exclude those for which seed alone is insufficient, since they need something else in addition, something that had not yet come into the world.

There were not any thorns or thistles of the field, because Yahweh-Elohim had not caused it to rain upon the earth. The fields of grain had not yet sprung up, because there was not anyone to till the ground. Every summer, it is observed that, while the seeds of the thorns and thistles lie scattered on the ground in large numbers, not one of them springs up.

However, as soon as the rain falls, the earth is covered with thorns and thistles. As for the fields of grain, even though isolated specimens of barley and wheat do exist in a natural state, they are not found in great quantities in any one place. Fields of grain are produced only by man. (6/76)

Again, the alleged discrepancy fades under the application of logic and fact. The creation of animals after man in the second account proves a somewhat more difficult problem to resolve. However, this problem is not insurmountable, despite the critics’ allegations to the contrary.

Much of the problem results over the assumption by the critics that the sequence of chapter 2 is chronological, when it never was meant to be understood in that manner, or as Young puts it, “To insist upon a chronological order in chapter 2 is to place a construction upon the writer’s words that was never intended.” (38/56)

Taylor Lewis notes the same thing when he states, “The trouble springs from the assuming of a chronology, and endeavoring to find it, when the chief feature of this second narrative… is its wholly unchronological character.” (22/20)

Thus, the sequential difficulty with regard to the creation of man and animals, understood from this viewpoint, disappears. However, the problem of tense in 2:19 still gives some trouble.

Kitchen, in answer to Driver’s assertion that to render the first verb in 2:19, “had formed” would be “contrary to idiom,” writes:

“In Genesis 2:19, there is not explicit warrant in the text for assuming that the creation of animals here happened immediately before their naming (i.e., after man’s creation); this is eisegesis, not exegesis. The proper equivalent in English for the first verb in Genesis 2:19 is the pluperfect (‘had formed’). Thus, the artificial difficulty over the order of events disappears.” (20/118)

The second account does not teach the creation of man before the animals. The chronological order is not what is being stressed. Chapter 2 has described the formation of Eden and the placement of Adam in the garden. It now speaks of man’s condition, demonstrating his need of a helpmate for himself, and that such a helpmate was not found among the animals.

The sequence is not chronological, since there is not any justification to import the idea of time into the second chapter. The initial account of creation had already informed us of the chronological sequence; therefore, verse 19 may correctly be paraphrased, “and the Lord God having formed out of the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of heaven, brought them unto the man.” (38/56)

Kitchen develops this argument further and justifies the rendering “had formed”:

“As pluperfect meaning is included in the Perfective, we cannot a priori deny it to contextual equivalents of the Perfective. Hebraists and others should also remember that no special pluperfect tenses exist in the Ancient Semitic Languages (or in Egyptian), this nuance being covered by prefective forms and equivalents interpreted on context as here in Hebrew.” (20/119)

He further adds examples from Scripture to support this argument:

“The meaning of any Waw-Consecutive-Imperfective must be settled on context, not by appeal to abstract principles… For Hebrew Waw-Consecutive-Imperfectives that require a pluperfect standpoint in English, cf: Exodus 4:19 (picking up 4:12, not 18); Exodus 19:2 (‘having departed… and come… they pitched… ’ picks up 17:1, not 19:1; these examples, courtesy Dr. W.J. Martin.)

“Perhaps more striking, Joshua 2:22 (‘now the pursuers had sought them… ’) does not continue immediately preceding verbs. I Kings 13:12 (‘Now his sons had seen’ does not continue or follow from ‘their father said’) Driver, Treatise… p. 87, can only dispose of I Kings 13:12 by appealing to the versions.” (20/118–119 N. 19)

But even if Driver’s assertion that the pluperfect rendering is contrary to idiom is absolutely correct (which the above examples from Scripture tend to negate), there is still the explanation set forth by Cassuto and Archer, which gives a plausible reason for the apparent contradiction in the order of creation with regard to man and animals.

Archer concludes that the critics’ reasoning is faulty in regarding the account as chronological and point out the purpose for the order:

“It is a mistake to suppose that Genesis 2 indicates the creation of the animal order as taking place after the origin of man. It only states that the particular individuals brought before Adam for naming had been especially fashioned by God for this purpose. (It does not imply that there were no animals anywhere else in the world prior to this time.)” (4/118)

Elaborating on this line of thought, and carrying his explanation of the placement of vegetation in the creative order over to the placement of animals in the order of creation, Cassuto remarks:

“We find in the second section that the Lord God formed out of the ground the beasts and the flying creatures (v. 19); whereas the first section informs us that the beasts and the flying creatures were created before man. But in this case, too, we have to be careful not to regard the words of the Bible as though they were isolated and unrelated to their context.

“According to the continuation of the passage, the Lord God’s intention was to pass in review before the man all the species of animals in order that he should give them names, and endeavor to find among them a helper corresponding to him.

“The cattle, which should have been the first to be considered in this connection, are not mentioned at all among the kinds of animals that the Lord God then made. Yet we are explicitly told afterwards that Adam gave names to the cattle, the beasts and the flying creatures (v. 20).

“This implies that the cattle, owing to their nature, were already to be found in the garden with man, in agreement with the first section. But in order that all the various kinds of beasts and flying creatures that were scattered through the length and breadth of the world should also be represented in Adam’s abode, the Lord God formed, from the soil of the garden, beasts and flying creatures of every type previously created, and He brought them to the man.” (6/77)

Again, better solutions are found to the apparent problems between the two chapters than those posed by the critics.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟27,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the only problem with your theory is it lacks citation. In order to be a legitimate theory you need to quote all of these commentaries you suggest and use it to prove your point.
I would have though the text itself was citation enough. Though it would be interesting to see the earlier references.

If you have none then thats a problem. If it's new it's not true and if it's true it's not new.
Yes lets abandon the Reformation and all go back to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

We are not that smart in other words, everything goes about in seasons. Even theology.

here is a link that offers some interesting opinions regarding the text....

Don’t Genesis 1 and 2 contain contradictory accounts of creation?-JMM

here is some quotes from the link

By the simple phrase “male and female created He them,” we are not told how they were made or if they were created at the same time. There is only the indefinite statement that they were created.

In the second account, when the writer elaborates the story of mankind’s origin, it is explained in detail how man and woman were formed respectively. This is not a matter of inconsistency, but of a general statement followed by a detailed account, which is a common literary device in ancient Semitic writing. (6/74)

The critical contention that vegetation did not appear until after the creation of man in the second account, in contradistinction to the first account when it precedes man, is another alleged problem that has a ready solution.

Pieters points out: “The writer cannot have supposed that the absence of a farmer would prevent the growth of wild grass and plants; for everyone knows the contrary. The lack of a farmer accounts for the lack of farm plants only.” (26/78)
Sounds to me like even more reason to realise this is a parable rather than literal. Of course you could argue that God created Adam first to show his dominion over the whole of the earth not just domesticated plants and animals. Your only problem is that if you take it literally it contradicts the literal interpretation of Genesis 1 again. Not sure how you can argue that 'herbs of the field' are domesticated crops but 'beasts of the field' are wild animals rather than livestock.

...It also should be noted that, although the growth of the shrubs and sprouting of the herbs are represented here as being dependent upon the rain and the cultivation of the earth by man, it must not be understood that the words mean there was neither shrub nor herb before the creation of man. The shrub and the herb of the field do not embrace the whole of the vegetable productions of the earth. (18/77)
And every shrub of the field... and every herb of the field... Sounds to me like the author is describing the creation of all plants.

...Much of the problem results over the assumption by the critics that the sequence of chapter 2 is chronological, when it never was meant to be understood in that manner, or as Young puts it, “To insist upon a chronological order in chapter 2 is to place a construction upon the writer’s words that was never intended.” (38/56)
It's a narrative, a creation story, the chronological order comes from the story the author told, in the words he told it in.

Taylor Lewis notes the same thing when he states, “The trouble springs from the assuming of a chronology, and endeavoring to find it, when the chief feature of this second narrative… is its wholly unchronological character.” (22/20)
Wow. He even call it a narrative but he cannot see the simple and beautiful story it tells.

Thus, the sequential difficulty with regard to the creation of man and animals, understood from this viewpoint, disappears. However, the problem of tense in 2:19 still gives some trouble.

Kitchen, in answer to Driver’s assertion that to render the first verb in 2:19, “had formed” would be “contrary to idiom,” writes:

“In Genesis 2:19, there is not explicit warrant in the text for assuming that the creation of animals here happened immediately before their naming (i.e., after man’s creation); this is eisegesis, not exegesis. The proper equivalent in English for the first verb in Genesis 2:19 is the pluperfect (‘had formed’). Thus, the artificial difficulty over the order of events disappears.” (20/118)
Then be consistent and turn all the other waw consecutive imperfects into pluperfects. You get the same order. God had created the animals after he had seen that Adam was alone. The eisigesis comes in when you pick and choose which waw consecutives to translate as pluperfects, simply because translating them the same as all the other waw consecutives doesn't suit your theology.

The second account does not teach the creation of man before the animals. The chronological order is not what is being stressed.
True. It is the story that is being stressed, but the chronology comes from both the grammar and the story.
Chapter 2 has described the formation of Eden and the placement of Adam in the garden. It now speaks of man’s condition, demonstrating his need of a helpmate for himself, and that such a helpmate was not found among the animals.

The sequence is not chronological, since there is not any justification to import the idea of time into the second chapter. The initial account of creation had already informed us of the chronological sequence; therefore, verse 19 may correctly be paraphrased, “and the Lord God having formed out of the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of heaven, brought them unto the man.” (38/56)

Kitchen develops this argument further and justifies the rendering “had formed”:

“As pluperfect meaning is included in the Perfective, we cannot a priori deny it to contextual equivalents of the Perfective. Hebraists and others should also remember that no special pluperfect tenses exist in the Ancient Semitic Languages (or in Egyptian), this nuance being covered by prefective forms and equivalents interpreted on context as here in Hebrew.” (20/119)

He further adds examples from Scripture to support this argument:

“The meaning of any Waw-Consecutive-Imperfective must be settled on context, not by appeal to abstract principles…
And the context in Gen 2:19 is in the middle of a narrative sequence like God's search for a companion for Adam. The context tells us it is part of the consecutive narrative and should be translated the same as the other waw consecutives.

For Hebrew Waw-Consecutive-Imperfectives that require a pluperfect standpoint in English, cf: Exodus 4:19 (picking up 4:12, not 18);
Exodus 4:18 Moses went back to Jethro his father-in-law and said to him, "Please let me go back to my brothers in Egypt to see whether they are still alive." And Jethro said to Moses, "Go in peace."
19 And the LORD said to Moses in Midian, "Go back to Egypt, for all the men who were seeking your life are dead."

Or God was encouraging Moses and telling him it was safe to go back after he took the first step getting Jethro's permission. The simple reading of the text is that God spoke this new message to Moses after Moses spoke to Jethro.

Exodus 19:2 (‘having departed… and come… they pitched… ’ picks up 17:1, not 19:1; these examples, courtesy Dr. W.J. Martin.)
Exodus 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came [perfect] into the wilderness of Sinai. 2 They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness.

Notice how this is at the start of a whole new section unlike the waw consecutive in Genesis 2:19. A series of waw consecutive imperfects usually start from a perfect tense, which is what we find in verse 1, 'they came'. There is no need to to look back to chapter 17.

“Perhaps more striking, Joshua 2:22 (‘now the pursuers had sought them… ’) does not continue immediately preceding verbs.
Josh 2:22 They departed [waw consecutive] and went [waw consecutive] into the hills and remained there three days until the pursuers [participle] returned [perfect], and the pursuers [participle] searched [waw consecutive] all along the way and found nothing [perfect].
Interestingly the waw consecutive searched or sought follows a perfect again. This is actually another use of the waw consecutive, where it is giving a summary of what is being described, the end result of the their three day hunt was that they searched all along the way and found nothing.

I Kings 13:12 (‘Now his sons had seen’ does not continue or follow from ‘their father said’) Driver, Treatise… p. 87, can only dispose of I Kings 13:12 by appealing to the versions.” (20/118–119 N. 19)
1Kings 13:12 And their father said [waw consecutive] to them, "Which way did he go?" And his sons showed him [waw consecutive] the way that the man of God who came [perfect] from Judah had gone [perfect]. 13 And he said to his sons, "Saddle the donkey for me." So they saddled the donkey for him and he mounted it.

Not sure what is meant by 'versions' in you quote, but if it is referring to the Targum "they showed it to their father" then this is a pretty important indication of how the Jews understood this passage. The perfects are important again, not because of the waw consecutive sequence this time, but because they show how the writer talked about the events in the past when the prophet went down the road, he used the perfect. If the writer wanted to say the sons had seen the prophet when he was walking down the road, all he had to do was use the same perfect tense.

So how does the waw consecutive work here? They didn't see the prophet going down the road when their father asked them, it doesn't really work to say they showed their father the road, because that would be another form of the verb hiphil rather than qal. But there is another meaning to the qal as well as 'see', it is 'look at'. It think these were teenagers. Their father asked them which way the prophet went and they didn't say anything, instead they all turned and looked down the road, and the dad says 'saddle the donkey...'

But even if Driver’s assertion that the pluperfect rendering is contrary to idiom is absolutely correct (which the above examples from Scripture tend to negate), there is still the explanation set forth by Cassuto and Archer, which gives a plausible reason for the apparent contradiction in the order of creation with regard to man and animals.

Archer concludes that the critics’ reasoning is faulty in regarding the account as chronological and point out the purpose for the order:

“It is a mistake to suppose that Genesis 2 indicates the creation of the animal order as taking place after the origin of man. It only states that the particular individuals brought before Adam for naming had been especially fashioned by God for this purpose. (It does not imply that there were no animals anywhere else in the world prior to this time.)” (4/118)
So instead of two different creation accounts, you end up with two different creations. Perhaps Adam and Eve are also different from the people created in Genesis 1, solves all the problem with earlier hominids :)

Yet if it was the writers intention to describe a second round of creation, why would he keep emphasizing how God was creating everything?

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field... and every herb of the field... 9 every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food (perhaps all the fruit trees in Genesis 1 were ugly)... 19 every beast of the field, and every bird of the air... every living creature... 20 all cattle... and to every beast of the field.

Elaborating on this line of thought, and carrying his explanation of the placement of vegetation in the creative order over to the placement of animals in the order of creation, Cassuto remarks:

“We find in the second section that the Lord God formed out of the ground the beasts and the flying creatures (v. 19); whereas the first section informs us that the beasts and the flying creatures were created before man. But in this case, too, we have to be careful not to regard the words of the Bible as though they were isolated and unrelated to their context.

“According to the continuation of the passage, the Lord God’s intention was to pass in review before the man all the species of animals in order that he should give them names, and endeavor to find among them a helper corresponding to him.

“The cattle, which should have been the first to be considered in this connection, are not mentioned at all among the kinds of animals that the Lord God then made. Yet we are explicitly told afterwards that Adam gave names to the cattle, the beasts and the flying creatures (v. 20).

“This implies that the cattle, owing to their nature, were already to be found in the garden with man, in agreement with the first section. But in order that all the various kinds of beasts and flying creatures that were scattered through the length and breadth of the world should also be represented in Adam’s abode, the Lord God formed, from the soil of the garden, beasts and flying creatures of every type previously created, and He brought them to the man.” (6/77)
Or livestock are included in beasts of the field. Or the writer wanted to convey that God is the creator of everything, not to give exhaustive lists. So when verse 19 says every beast of the field and every bird of the air, it is telling us God created all living creatures including domesticated animals, which aren't mentioned in verse 19 but are in verse 20, and flightless birds like the ostrich which aren't mentioned here at all but are mentioned in the creation account in Job.

Again, better solutions are found to the apparent problems between the two chapters than those posed by the critics.
And the best solution is to start by taking the two accounts at face value and build our understanding of the text on that, rather than start with your conclusions and try to read them into the text.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

theFijian

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 30, 2003
8,898
475
West of Scotland
Visit site
✟63,625.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
If it's true it's not new and if it's new it's not true.
Really? This is a new idea to me so therefore it must not be true.
Or is this just your opinion?
Is your maxim simply 'your opinion'?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.