Where Did The Apostle Paul Get His Ideas??.....

Biblewriter said:

There is absolutely no scripture whatsoever that even suggests that Junia was an apostle. Being a woman, she was disbarred from any position of authority in the church. But Paul "was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles." (2 Corinthians 11:5) and "when Peter was come to Antioch," Paul "withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." (Galatians 2:11)

I cannot help but think that your objection to Paul's apostolic authority is based on rebellion against some of the truth that the Holy Spirit delivered to the church through his writings.

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Junia is called an apostle, by Paul.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.


Silas and Barnabas were apostles, but not foundational apostles, just as Paul was not a foundational apostle. Barnabas was an eyewitness and one of the seventy disciples from among whom Matthias was elected by the Holy Spirit to take Judas' place as one of the twelve foundational Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Otherwise, "apostles" are set in the Church by the Holy Spirit, as a gift to the Church, and as long as the Church is on earth, there are apostles set in it, but the foundational twelve eyewitness Apostles do not change. Paul was not an eyewitness, and Barnabas was called by the Holy Spirit as an apostle to the Gentiles and was commissioned at the same time and place as Saul/Paul.

1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
You are mistaken to think that I rebel in the Church of the LORD Jesus Christ, and that is a false accusation without foundational merit, for even Paul accepted Priscilla as a teacher in the Church, along with her husband. Priscilla even "expounded the Scriptures as well as her husband"!
Priscilla and her husband were equally "fellow workers" in the Church, with Paul!
Rom 16:3 ¶ Greet Priscilla and Aquila my "fellowworkers" in Christ Jesus:

Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.


And Paul writes the Romans to aid Phoebe, a deaconess in the Church, and Philip's four daughters were prophetesses [who do not lay down foundational doctrines as Moses and Enoch did], who also prophesied to Paul.


Rom 16:1
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a "deaconess" of the church which is at Cenchrea: Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Then, of course, we have women in the OT as prophetesses, leaders, judges/rulers, and preachers -gasp! - of the Gospel to come, who would proclaim the Gospel of Peace upon the mountains.

Mic 6:4 For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

Miriam was a prophetess from childhood, as the book of Jasher tells us, and she prophesied Moses' birth, and that Moses would be the deliverer of Israel from Egypt!


Exd 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

yeshuasavedme said:

Junia is called an apostle, by Paul.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

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"Of note among the apostles" does not mean "famous as one of the apostles," it means "highly regarded by the apostles."

Silas and Barnabas were apostles, but not foundational apostles, just as Paul was not a foundational apostle. Barnabas was an eyewitness and one of the seventy disciples from among whom Matthias was elected by the Holy Spirit to take Judas' place as one of the twelve foundational Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Otherwise, "apostles" are set in the Church by the Holy Spirit, as a gift to the Church, and as long as the Church is on earth, there are apostles set in it, but the foundational twelve eyewitness Apostles do not change. Paul was not an eyewitness, and Barnabas was called by the Holy Spirit as an apostle to the Gentiles and was commissioned at the same time and place as Saul/Paul.

1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
You are mistaken to think that I rebel in the Church of the LORD Jesus Christ, and that is a false accusation without foundational merit, for even Paul accepted Priscilla as a teacher in the Church, along with her husband. Priscilla even "expounded the Scriptures as well as her husband"!
Priscilla and her husband were equally "fellow workers" in the Church, with Paul!
Rom 16:3 ¶ Greet Priscilla and Aquila my "fellowworkers" in Christ Jesus:

Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.


And Paul writes the Romans to aid Phoebe, a deaconess in the Church, and Philip's four daughters were prophetesses [who do not lay down foundational doctrines as Moses and Enoch did], who also prophesied to Paul.


Rom 16:1
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a "deaconess" of the church which is at Cenchrea: Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Then, of course, we have women in the OT as prophetesses, leaders, judges/rulers, and preachers -gasp! - of the Gospel to come, who would proclaim the Gospel of Peace upon the mountains.

Mic 6:4 For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

Miriam was a prophetess from childhood, as the book of Jasher tells us, and she prophesied Moses' birth, and that Moses would be the deliverer of Israel from Egypt!


Exd 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

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I knew this was the real basis of your reason for rejecting the absolute authority of Paul the epistles of Paul.

You do not accept the entire Bible as coming directly from God, and you accept other books as authoritative.

I answer you entirely from the Bible and from the Bible alone, as that is the only reliable basis for any Christian doctrine. I have nothing more to offer anyone who does not accept it as the absolute and only authority for Christian doctrine and practice.

I will post my answer on this subject one time, and then I will post no more on the matter, for it has nothing to do with either this thread or with eschatology. (see next two posts.)

The Ministry of Women

The word of God says much about the ministry of women. In the New Testament they are often seen serving the church, laboring in the work of the gospel. We see this in Romans 16:1-2: “I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.” A few verses later, in Romans 16:6, we read: “Greet Mary, who labored much for us.” Acts 9:36 tells us that “At Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which is translated Dorcas. This woman was full of good works and charitable deeds which she did.” Acts 16:14 tells of “a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshiped God.” In verse 15 she gave the apostles lodging. Finally, Philippians 4:3 says: “And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”

Women also figure prominently in the rest of Divine history. “By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.” (Hebrews 11:11) Rebekah, in obedience to God, crossed the desert to marry a man she had never met. (Genesis 24:33-58) Rachael and Leah obeyed the command of the Lord, leaving their childhood home with their husband Jacob. (Genesis 31:3-18) Hebrews 11:23 tells us that it was by faith that Jochebed hid her son Moses three months, not fearing the king’s command. (Exodus 2:1-10, 6:20) Rahab hid the spies of Israel and pled for the lives of her family because she believed that “the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.” (Joshua 2:11) The angel who announced Samson’s birth came first to his mother, not his father. And she obeyed the Lord’s command, raising Samson a Nazirite from the womb. (Judges 13:1-25, 16:17) Abigail’s wisdom saved David from committing murder. (1 Samuel 25:23-34) The wisdom of an unnamed woman saved the city of Abel from destruction. (2 Samuel 20:15-22) Entire books were devoted to the faith of Ruth and Esther, and to the love of Solomon’s wife.

In the New Testament, Martha and Mary, the sisters of Lazarus, served Jesus and His followers in their home. (Luke 10:38-42; John 12:1-3) Luke 8:3 tells us of “certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities; Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who provided for Him from their substance." This Mary Magdalene is mentioned ten times in the gospels. Other women who took part in her godly service were “the mother of Zebedee's sons.” (Matthew 27:56) “Mary the mother of James the Less and of Joses, and Salome,” (Mark 15:40) Mary the mother of Jesus, “and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas.” (John 19:25)

The Holy Spirit has often spoken through women. “Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron,” led the women of Israel in a song and dance of triumph. (Exodus 15:20) “Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth” (Judges 4:4) led an army that delivered Israel. “Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe” prophesied of the judgement of Israel. (2 Kings 22:14-20) Isaiah’s wife was also called a prophetess. (Isaiah 8:3)

In the New Testament, aside from the words of angels, the first two recorded prophecies were given through women. These were the prophecy of Elizabeth in Luke 1:42-45 and Mary’s answer in Luke 1:46-55. After that we read of “Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher... who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.” (Luke 2:36-37) When our Lord “rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene.” (Mark 16:9) She, and “the other Mary” (Matthew 28:1) were specifically commanded to “go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him.” (Matthew 28:7) Finally, the second epistle of John was addressed to a woman. (2 John 1:1)

1 Timothy 3:11 gives us qualifications for the wife of a deacon. This would seem to indicate that the wives of deacons participate in their work. It would appear that Aquila and Priscilla are an example of this. Acts 18:2 introduces Aquila “with his wife Priscilla.” In Acts 18:26 we read that “Aquila and Priscilla” took Apollos aside “and explained to him the way of God more accurately.” In Romans 16:3-5 we read: “Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their own necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. Likewise greet the church that is in their house.”

But while there are many things women may do in and for the church, they are forbidden to speak in its meetings or to take part in its leadership. This is a very unpopular idea in modern America, but the word of God could not be more clear on the subject. It is plainly stated in two places:

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” (1 Timothy 2:11-12)

“Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:34-37)

Could this language be stronger or more clear? Some pretend that these passages are not correctly translated. This is simply not true. It would be useless to examine the individual Greek words in these passages. Each Greek word in each of them is correctly rendered in our translation. Almost all widely recognized translations give the same basic meaning in each of these passages. Our translation is essentially unchanged in the King James, American Standard, Revised Standard, New Revised Standard, and New International versions of the Bible; the translation called God’s Word to the Nations; and the translations by Helen B. Montgomery, James Moffatt, William Kelly, J. N. Darby, Robert Young, Jay P. Green, and Heinz W. Cassirer, the New Greek English Interlinear New Testament, and the interlinear translations by Alfred Marshall and Thomas Newberry. There are minor differences in other translations charted in the back of this book, but the only really significant one is that instead of women, A. S. Worrell and Daniel H. Stern give wives and Richard Francis Weymouth gives “their women.” As explained in footnote 7 in the chapter on deacons, this is purely a matter of interpretation.

Some think this instruction was just the correction of a local problem in ancient Corinth. But it is specifically addressed to churches other than the one in Corinth, for it says that women are to “keep silent in the churches,” not the church. The Holy Spirit adds that “it is shameful for women to speak in church.” This is clearly a statement of a general principle, not just an instruction for a particular church. Indeed, the subject at hand was “all the churches of the saints.” We see this in the verse immediately before this passage: “For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” (1 Corinthians 14:33) Seven chapters earlier, the Apostle, though he was speaking of a different subject, said “And so I ordain in all the churches.” (1 Corinthians 7:17) We have already noticed that this book was not only addressed “To the church of God which is at Corinth.” It was also addressed to “all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:2) There can therefore be no question that the command to “Let your women keep silent in the churches” was addressed to “all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Some attempt to minimize this rule by calling it Paul’s. Many of those who reject it think they are unusually spiritual Christians. Some of them even claim to be prophets, and so they may be, but if they are, let them carefully notice the Apostle’s words: “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 14:37)

Paul further wrote:

“For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:10-12)

We need to clearly understand that this rule comes from God, not from Paul.

People have invented many excuses for disobeying this rule, but that is all they are. They are only excuses. Some go so far as to claim that the Holy Spirit has shown them that these Scriptures do not apply to us today. They forget the words “I am the LORD, I do not change.” (Malachi 3:6) Their claim cannot possibly be true, for Paul’s epistles are part of Scripture, (see 2 Peter 3:15-16) and our Lord Jesus Himself said that “the Scripture cannot be broken.” (John 10:35)

One group teaches that the reason for this rule was that the early church included many former prostitutes. These women, they say, had no idea how to behave themselves in the church, so they were commanded to be silent. They cannot even pretend to demonstrate this idea from the Bible. It is not there. Further, I personally know former prostitutes who have surrendered their hearts and lives to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. They have been washed in the blood of the Lamb, and are no longer unclean. They are no longer loud and uncouth, but have become beautiful and godly members of the body of Christ. They are now holy women, faultless before God and the Lamb. To say such things is not only an insult to these beautiful sisters, it is a gross insult to that Holy Blood that has washed them from their former sins and made them pure. In Acts 10:15 Peter was told, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

Another group claims that in the early church men sat in one place and women in another. They say that the women had begun to shout across the church, asking their husbands to ask questions. There is nothing in the entire New Testament to support such an idea. Nowhere does it mention even one church where men sat in one place and women in another, nor does it even hint at the idea that anyone was shouting in the church. Some claim that although the Scriptures say nothing of this, it is mentioned by other ancient writers. Even if this were correct, it would change nothing. If our God intended for us to consider such an idea, He would have included it in the Scriptures. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” This passage makes three distinct points. The first two are that “all Scripture” “is given by inspiration of God” and “is profitable.” But the third point is that “all Scripture” makes the man of God “complete,” that it makes him “thoroughly equipped for every good work.” If we needed to know historical facts from other sources in order to understand Scripture, then the Scriptures alone would not make us “complete,” and they would not make us “thoroughly equipped for every good work.” No doctrine is reliable if it is based on anything outside of the Bible.

Yet another group sets this rule aside because Galatians 3:27-28 says; “as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” While this sounds good, it involves a very basic error. They are using their interpretation of the meaning of one Scripture to set aside the express statement of another Scripture. This is unacceptable in a Christian leader. The authority of Scripture is absolute and final. Anyone who rejects any portion of it is disqualified for leadership in the church. (Titus 1:9)

But in recent years a more subtle excuse has begun to be circulated. Certain well known and widely respected Christian leaders have begun to teach that these Scriptures were only deference to cultural norms in the ancient world. This statement has a comfortable and pleasant ring to it. Oh! It’s all right. God will go along with the norms of our culture. Don’t worry about it. But such an idea should offend a Christian. The very idea is evil. When did God ever bend His will to fit our culture? Indeed, His instruction to us is “do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:2) But in addition to being evil, this idea is simply incorrect. Many, if not all, of the heathen religions of the Biblical world had priestesses, that is, women who led the worship of their false god. This well known historical fact proves that the contention is completely unfounded. The cultural norm of the age was that women partook in religious services. In fact, they not only partook, but even lead them. The rule that they must be silent was radical. It was a strange, new idea, as offensive in that day as it is today.

Would to God this exercise were only setting up straw horses, so they could be knocked down. But such is not the case. Every one of these excuses is presently being widely circulated. But it is not enough to explode objections to the commandments of the Lord. We need to examine the reasons God gave for this rule.

As we have noticed, 1 Corinthians 14:34 says “Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.” The words, “as the law also says”, do not refer to the commandment that women were to “keep silent in the churches,” but rather to the commandment that “they are to be submissive.” This is from God’s judgement of mankind’s first sin. At that time He told the woman:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.” (Genesis 3:16)

This is pointed out in our passage in 1 Timothy 2:

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

The woman was put into subjection because she was deceived by the serpent. Although this decree is six thousand years old, God has never revoked it. But He has not only never revoked it. In this passage He expressly says it is still in effect.

This passage also shows that this was God’s original intent in the design of creation. This is treated in further detail in 1 Corinthians 11:3-10:

“But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.”

These two reasons, that is, God’s judgement of mankind’s first sin and His original intent in the design of creation, clearly have nothing to do with any ancient custom or local problem of any kind. They are based entirely in the authority and wisdom of God.

Some basically admit that this is what God says, but say that women have to take the lead in churches because men fail to do so. While we sympathize with any woman who finds herself in such a situation, we must remember what happened to king Saul when the Philistines invaded Israel in 1 Samuel 13:

“Then he waited seven days, according to the time set by Samuel. But Samuel did not come to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. So Saul said, ‘Bring a burnt offering and peace offerings here to me.’ And he offered the burnt offering. Now it happened, as soon as he had finished presenting the burnt offering, that Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might greet him. And Samuel said, ‘What have you done?’ And Saul said, ‘When I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that you did not come within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered together at Michmash, then I said, ‘The Philistines will now come down on me at Gilgal, and I have not made supplication to the LORD.’ Therefore I felt compelled, and offered a burnt offering.’ And Samuel said to Saul, ‘You have done foolishly. You have not kept the commandment of the LORD your God, which He commanded you. For now the LORD would have established your kingdom over Israel forever. But now your kingdom shall not continue. The LORD has sought for Himself a man after His own heart, and the LORD has commanded him to be commander over His people, because you have not kept what the LORD commanded you.’” (1 Samuel 13:8-14)

This act, which appeared to be seeking after God, was actually rebellion. Why? Saul was not authorized to offer sacrifices. He was a king, not a priest. This act of rebellion cost Saul his throne. If this seems far out, and not at all like our God, remember what happened to Moses at the rock of Horeb:

“Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, ‘Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.’ So Moses took the rod from before the LORD as He commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, ‘Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?’ Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank. Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, ‘Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.’” (Numbers 20:7-12)

In this case Moses was God’s duly authorized representative. He was acting in the capacity that God had given him. But he did not follow God’s instructions. For this one act of disobedience he was not allowed to enter the promised land. Many years later, when it came time for him to die, Moses said:

“Then I pleaded with the LORD at that time, saying: ‘O Lord GOD, You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds? I pray, let me cross over and see the good land beyond the Jordan, those pleasant mountains, and Lebanon.’ But the LORD was angry with me on your account, and would not listen to me. So the LORD said to me: ‘Enough of that! Speak no more to Me of this matter.’” (Deuteronomy 3:23-26)

Why were the details of God’s instruction so important? 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 says:

“I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

The rock was a picture of our Lord Jesus Himself. The first time the people needed water, God told Moses:

“Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.” (Exodus 17:6)

This was a beautiful picture of our Lord Jesus being smitten for our sins. On the second occasion Moses was not told to strike the rock, but to speak to it. When he struck it a second time, he spoiled the picture.

The relationship between husbands and their wives is another picture of our Lord Jesus. The husband represents the Lord and the wife represents the church. We find this in Ephesians 5:22-32:

“Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”

If a woman teaches a man, she makes God’s picture show the church teaching Christ. If she assumes authority over a man, she distorts the picture to show the church assuming authority over its Lord. In addition to subverting God’s order in creation, either of these actions spoils His picture of Christ and the church. This is shameful. “It is shameful for women to speak in church.” (1 Corinthians 14:35) Some deny this; “but indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?” (Romans 9:20)

In spite of all this, there are many women who claim that God has called them to the ministry. I personally know some of them. They truly love the Lord Jesus Christ and exert much energy in serving Him; but they are disobeying His rules. The Lord sees their love and appreciates every heart that serves Him. But 2 Timothy 2:5 says that:

“If anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

How sad it would be to devote a life of hard work to service for the Lord, only to be disqualified at the judgment because the work had not been performed according to the rules. The word of God warns us of this in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15:

“Each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Such a person will still be in heaven, for “he himself will be saved.” But this does not change the fact that “he will suffer loss.” How serious will this loss be?

In Matthew 5:19 our Lord said that:

“Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

When Moses spoiled the picture, God still gave the people their needed blessing. The “water came out abundantly.” In like manner, when women preach God’s word, He may still bless it, for it is His word. But this does not change His rules concerning such ministry. Although these may seem to be among the least of God’s commandments; anyone who breaks them, and teaches men so, shall be among those who are “called least in the kingdom of heaven.” Can anything be worth such a monstrous loss?

All this does not mean that women can not have ministries. In Titus 2:3-5, the Holy Spirit instructed “the older women” to be “teachers of good things” and to “admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.” Thus we see that Scripture not only allows women to teach other women, it specifically tells them to do this. In addition to teaching each other, Scripture does not forbid them to teach children. Experience shows that most women are more suited to this task than most men. Further, in Acts 16:13 we read of a prayer meeting that was “customarily” held on a riverside in the city of Philippi. The Apostle Paul and his companions attended this meeting and “sat down and spoke to the women who met there.” From this we learn that this was a women’s prayer meeting. The Apostle Paul is accused of being a “woman hater.” But he attended this meeting. This appears to be a Scriptural sanction for women’s prayer meetings. Finally, the Holy Spirit speaks through prophetesses; for “Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven... had four virgin daughters who prophesied.” (Acts 21:8-9) As women are forbidden to speak “in the Churches,” they cannot prophesy there, but this plainly shows that they can do so in other places.

Thus we see that women are specifically authorized to teach each other and to prophesy outside of the church, and they are not forbidden to teach children. Women’s prayer meetings appear to be sanctioned; but even if they are not, such meetings are not forbidden. In addition to this, women can have almost limitless ministries of love and caring. The only things forbidden are for women to speak in church and to teach or assume authority over men.

Biblewriter said:

"Of note among the apostles" does not mean "famous as one of the apostles," it means "highly regarded by the apostles."...

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illustrious among apostles.
There is no article "the", and Paul is not speaking of what the twelve foundational Apostles think of his kinsmen, Andronicus and Junia, who sound like another husband wife team of called apostles -little "a", who are noted, illustrious, among apostles. Apostles are set in the Church by the Holy Spirit, and twelve of them who were eyewitnesses who walked and talked with and handled Jesus Christ come in flesh, are foundations of the Church.

Your own rebellion against the Word of God and His call on women is blinding your thinking on this matter and causing you to sin by making false accusations against me, of whom you know nothing.
I have a husband of 47 years and seven children and a couple dozen grandchildren, and even, some great grandchildren.
As a wife, mother, homemaker, grandmother, I serve God in absolute submission to my husband, whose authority I do not usurp!

Within the body of Christ, I serve the LORD with the gifts He has blessed me with, in the Holy Spirit, under His authority in His Church. -And that is an issue with you, that women can be gifted by God for service in His Church! -Shame shame on you!

Aquilla and Priscilla had a Church in their home, and Priscilla expounded Scriptures -as well as her husband!
Priscilla took no vow of silence in her home-Church meetings!

Women preach the Gospel -the Holy Spirit said so, in the OT. Where do they preach prophesy and proclaim the Gospel? -wherever they are sent.
As "Missionaries" [not a New Testament word, nor is it mentioned as set in the Church by the Holy Spirit, so it is misnamed], they do the works of an evangelist and apostle in many nations in this Church age. Sometimes husband and wife teams are called and sent, but many women have a call, alone, and they go.


Paul was dealing with a local issue of married silly women who interrupted the service to speak to their husbands across the separations of men and women in the Church -just like in a synagogue, there was segregation of the genders!
Shame shame on you for not rightly dividing the Scriptures and comparing Scripture with Scripture for doctrinal understanding!
Aquilla and Priscilla worked together, Andronicus and Junia worked together, but Phoebe worked alone, Lydia worked alone, and started prayer meetings in the city after her salvation, and Paul took no offense in praying with her group.
and John Mark's mother, Mary, sister of Barnabas, was fully involved in the gospel ministry, as well as Jesus' Uncle Cleopas and aunt Mary, his womb mother's sister-in-law.

Many faithful men and women are called to go, and they go, wherever they are sent.
Gladys Aylward was called, and she went, and she preached the Gospel in China faithfully.
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/73.html

In the Church, there is no "male and female", "Jew nor Gentile". The Holy Spirit calls men and women: but no, a woman is not suited for "Pastor"; yet, if there is no other, she may be, not willfully, but of necessity. However, we do see Phoebe a called deaconess, Priscilla a teacher in her home-church and also a fellow co-worker with Paul -Paul said so- and Junia an apostle -little "a".

God sent/shalach Miriam as well as Moses and Aaron. Do you know what "sent" means?
One who is sent/shalach, in Hebrew, is an "apostle", in Greek.

Jesus is sent by the Father. Jesus sends those He calls into the ministry of being "sent".
Miriam was sent/shalach by the Holy Spirit, with Aaron and Moses, to Israel. So Miriam was a called apostle, as well as Moses and Aaron, to Israel.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent/shalach me.
Zec 2:8 ¶ For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent/shalach me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent/apostellō me, even so send I you.

Why would you guys hi-jack his thread like this.

Anyway, my opinion Tim is, that he was taught when he was 'caught up' to Heaven.
I believe he recieved revelation/instructions there.


2 Cor 12:1-2

...I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven...

Other than having direct communication with the resurrected Jesus and being shown things to write about?

Tim Myers said:

What was his orginal source for concepts like people being changed in an instant??
Why did he believe that it would take place "at the last trump"?
Where did the concept of "corruptible becoming incorruptible" come from?

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Eccl. 12:7
Dan. 12:2
Josh. 6:5
(Matt. 24:31, Mark 13:27, Luke 21:28, John 11:26)

Nitescape said:

Why would you guys hi-jack his thread like this...

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I didn't. My posts are a defense of my points about Paul's call and ministry, as one who was called like many were and are called. Junia happens to be a female apostle also mentioned in the NT, and Biblewriter is biased against women, with false information about their role in the body of Christ, which is His Church, and has ideas got outside the written revelation.

yeshuasavedme said:

I didn't. My posts are a defense of my points about Paul's call and ministry, as one who was called like many were and are called. Junia happens to be a female apostle also mentioned in the NT, and Biblewriter is biased against women, with false information about their role in the body of Christ, which is His Church, and has ideas got outside the written revelation.

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I find it amazing that someone who rejects the absolute authority of the Bible and quotes from non-biblical books calls a post based entirely on explicitly stated scripture "ideas gotten outside the written revelation."

Tim Myers said:

Are there any members here at CF who have done any research into where the Apostle Paul may have gotten some of his ideas??

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Yes. I have.
Be specific about which idea or ideas you want to know where Paul got the revelation of understanding and enlightenment by the Holy Spirit, from, foundationally, and I will show you the results of my research.

Do you know that Jesus also did not speak new things that were not already written down, but came to reveal -and be the revelation- of what was already written down, and to fulfill what was already written down, and to open the eyes of the blind, on what was already written down?


What is written in parables and hidden mysteries by the Holy Spirit, through men, is not understood without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Once the Light is given to one, there is no more obscurity in that subject, and when Paul spoke, he spoke from enlightenment on what was written, but not from new, never before written, inspiration.
Jesus is the Light, come in flesh, to be the "Revelation to the Gentiles" -and "to the Jews, first", which was long promised by, firstly, Himself, as God the Word in Eden, promised to Adam; and then, to Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam; then to the prophets and seers, like Noah, Shem, Abraham, Jacob, and Jacob's sons, and Moses. The dead Sea Scrolls prove a treasure trove of information about the promises given to the Patriarchs, about the manner and ways of redemption through the promised Seed of the Woman [Zion above, personified from the beginning as a woman].

God's plan is the One Way from the beginning, and revealed to His prophets, who wrote but did not fully understand the manner or time of the fulfillment and the where and how of it.
Now we know, and those who receive the revelations/light of understandings of what the prophets wrote serve a great purpose in the Church, like Paul. But Paul prayed that the Ephesians[and so may we all] would receive the revelations and understandings of Christ and His work for us, that the prophets wrote about, in greater and greater understandings.

Eph 1:15-19...
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power...,

Tim Myers said:

Are there any members here at CF who have done any research into where the Apostle Paul may have gotten some of his ideas??

Many of the ideas and concepts that Paul wrote about appear nowhere else in the Bible, and I have always been curious about where he received or developed many of these concepts.......

For example, in his famous passage from 1 Corinthians 15.........

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Where did Paul hear about, or learn, or think up such an idea??

What was his orginal source for concepts like people being changed in an instant??
Why did he believe that it would take place "at the last trump"?
Where did the concept of "corruptible becoming incorruptible" come from??

There are many other ideas and concepts that are unique to the Apostle Paul. However, for the sake of brevity, I will limit this post to just this passage from 1 Thessalonians.....

Click to expand...

Read Philo of Alexandria. A Hellenist Jew.

Purportedly Paul's teacher, Gamaliel, had 500 of his students taught Greek wisdom so they could converse/persuade those in authority. (Sotah 49b)

Tim Myers said:

Are there any members here at CF who have done any research into where the Apostle Paul may have gotten some of his ideas??

Many of the ideas and concepts that Paul wrote about appear nowhere else in the Bible, and I have always been curious about where he received or developed many of these concepts.......

For example, in his famous passage from 1 Corinthians 15.........

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Where did Paul hear about, or learn, or think up such an idea??

What was his orginal source for concepts like people being changed in an instant??
Why did he believe that it would take place "at the last trump"?
Where did the concept of "corruptible becoming incorruptible" come from??

There are many other ideas and concepts that are unique to the Apostle Paul. However, for the sake of brevity, I will limit this post to just this passage from 1 Thessalonians.....

Click to expand...

Firstly, as a student of Enoch, Paul had read all that Enoch wrote about the change that will come to the living at the rapture/laqach of the saints, pre-trib; and as a student of Moses and the other prophets, Paul knew how and when that change would come [not the point in time, but what transpires at the moment of the change]. Paul's eyes were opened to these things by the Light of understanding given to him by the Holy Spirit on what was written.

Enoch wrote this, about the change pre-trib, of the righteous, without dying, and of those who see it and repent, but who do not get "the glory", but are saved in the name of the Son of Man:

Enoch chapter 50:The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912

We Shall Be Changed
50 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness this
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.
3They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.
4And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.

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The trumpet that calls the saints to assemble was given as an oracle, to Israel, by Moses, in Numbers 10:1-10

That the dead are raised at the first trump -as the elders/ the ancient- of the congregation of the LORD is also typed in Moses' oracle of the silver trumpets, and the entire congregation that is to assemble before the door of the temple to meet with YHWH is also typed in the same passage, at the last trump of the two, sounding together.
David wrote of the time of that call for those who had made the "Covenant with Him by [His] Sacrifice, to be gathered together unto Him, in their resurrected bodies, from the ends of heaven to the ends of the earth, in Psalm 50.
Isaiah wrote of the events, in order, of the dead raised and the living changed, in Isaiah 26: 19-21.
Enoch, David and Isaiah all wrote of this change that comes at the call to be gathered as happening before the tribulation.

Enoch further writes of the glory of the called ones, and the immortal bodies at that change.

Moses wrote of the immortal bodies we receive, in the living Oracles, when he typed the New Man body of Christ come in flesh as the solid gold Mercy Seat cover of the Ark of the Covenant, which itself is the oracle of the redeemed who wait, as in the "pupa", for the metamorphosis into the immortal image of the Son of Man, our Firstborn/Head, in the New Man -who adopts us by His purchase of our redemption by His blood, and gives us beautiful garments made for beauty and for glory, as typed in Moses, in the garments of priesthood.

Paul knew, by revelation of understanding, that when the two heavenly trumpets, typed in Numbers 10, are sounded, that the elders [the dead in Christ: Isaiah 26:19-21], and the entire, remaining congregation are changed, with the garments of Salvation given to them as typed in Leviticus 8, so as to meet together with Christ in the air/heavenly realm, and go in, to celebrate their consecration to priesthood for one full week -hidden, while the indignation be past [Isaiah 2:19-21].

As a Jew, Paul knew that there is no pause to the two trumpets sounding together to call the entire congregation to be gathered.
So in a moment, the dead are called to rise at first blast of the two, fully garmented in New Man bodies [the robes of righteousness], and without pause, the "last trump" of the two calls the alive and remaining living to rise in their changed bodies, to meet together with the LORD before the doors of His heavenly temple,.

The instructions of the LORD to them are in Isaiah 26:19-21. and they shut the doors behind them, go in, and celebrate for one week [Daniel's seven year week?] their consecration to priesthood, in glorious new man garments -as typed in the garments of priesthood in Leviticus 8.

In short: you cannot separate Paul's teachings from the source of them, which is the Law and the prophets, with Enoch being first prophet with the written revelation in parables of the change to glory, pre-trib.

Anyone who seeks the LORD and is called by Him can get understanding and revelation/light, by the Holy Spirit, on what is written; and Paul wanted that for every believer.

Paul honored the Living Oracles given to the Jews, as the source for understanding of the Atoning work of Christ .
Paul equally honored the writings of Enoch, as the source for understanding who Christ was, and what His work would be, and what the foundations of doctrine that Moses and the prophets wrote from, was.

Steve Petersen said:

Read Philo of Alexandria. A Hellenist Jew.

Purportedly Paul's teacher, Gamaliel, had 500 of his students taught Greek wisdom so they could converse/persuade those in authority. (Sotah 49b)

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Gamaliel didn't know. Paul got it from understanding Enoch, which writings Jesus called "The Wisdom of God".

Break this down to just the Greek, and see what Paul actually said about "Wisdom of God and wisdom of man":
1 Cor 2:7 But [we] speak (5719) wisdom, God in mystery hidden, (5772) which God ordained (5656) before [the] world unto our glory:
That is from Enoch, alone, and not from Gamaliel.


To whom did Paul and the teachers speak/teach this?- not to all [1 Corinthians 2:1-6], but to:
Howbeit [we] speak (5719) wisdom among perfect: yet not [the] wisdom [of] this world, nor [of the] princes of this world, [that come to] nought (5746):

Jesus said:

"And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables." (Mark 4:11)

One of those mysteries revealed is that Jews and Gentiles would be grafted into one body, Jesus Christ, the Church--the true Israel of God. See Romans 11:25; Ephesians 1:9,10; 3:3-12.

In another mystery in 1 Cor 15:51-55, is not that there would be a pre-tribulation rapture, but the mystery was HOW, or in WHAT MANNER those who are still alive will be saved.

In the Old Testament, all that is revealed is that there will be a resurrection, and the bones will be resurrected and flesh will cover the bones. But nowhere in the Old Testament does it talk about the manner in which those who are still alive will be saved. I Corinthians 15:51-55, the mystery is that not all will die and sleep but that they will be transformed at the Second Coming.

Now that is truly a "mystery". It is hard to wrap your brain around, but with God, all things are possible! We must have faith.

yeshuasavedme said:

Gamaliel didn't know. Paul got it from understanding Enoch, which writings Jesus called "The Wisdom of God".

Break this down to just the Greek, and see what Paul actually said about "Wisdom of God and wisdom of man":
1 Cor 2:7 But [we] speak (5719) wisdom, God in mystery hidden, (5772) which God ordained (5656) before [the] world unto our glory:
That is from Enoch, alone, and not from Gamaliel.


To whom did Paul and the teachers speak/teach this?- not to all [1 Corinthians 2:1-6], but to:
Howbeit [we] speak (5719) wisdom among perfect: yet not [the] wisdom [of] this world, nor [of the] princes of this world, [that come to] nought (5746):

Click to expand...

Read Philo's description of the Earthly Adam and the Heavenly Adam and compare to Paul.

Tim Myers said:

Are there any members here at CF who have done any research into where the Apostle Paul may have gotten some of his ideas??

Many of the ideas and concepts that Paul wrote about appear nowhere else in the Bible, and I have always been curious about where he received or developed many of these concepts.......

For example, in his famous passage from 1 Corinthians 15.........

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Where did Paul hear about, or learn, or think up such an idea??

What was his orginal source for concepts like people being changed in an instant??
Why did he believe that it would take place "at the last trump"?
Where did the concept of "corruptible becoming incorruptible" come from??

There are many other ideas and concepts that are unique to the Apostle Paul. However, for the sake of brevity, I will limit this post to just this passage from 1 Thessalonians.....

Click to expand...

The idea of the "rapture", the resurrection and change to immortality of the believers in Christ comes from Scripture and the Lord Jesus Himself.

The timing (pre-wrath/pre-antichrist), what occurs (resurrection and change to immortality), when God calls us to Him in Heaven, at a time when the world is saying "peace and security" when judgment and wrath are about to begin are all found in Scripture.


Isaiah 26: 19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Psalm 50


1The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 6And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.


Psalm 75


1Unto thee, O God, do we give thanks, unto thee do we give thanks: for that thy name is near thy wondrous works declare.
2When I shall receive the congregation I will judge uprightly. 3The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.


Song of Solomon 2: 8The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
9My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.
10My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
11For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
12The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; 13The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.



John 11: 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


John 14


1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


John 14: 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.



Isaiah 61: 10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.



Joel 2: 15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

Steve Petersen said:

Read Philo's description of the Earthly Adam and the Heavenly Adam and compare to Paul.

Click to expand...

There is no heavenly Adam. Jesus, as Christ come in flesh, is called Israel; and pre-incarnation, He invoked His formerly secret name over Jacob, which is why He calls Israel, "My people, called by My name". Jacob saw God, who invoked His name over him, and Jacob made a memorial altar called -EL-ELOHE-ISRAEL =GOD, THE MIGHTY GOD, ISRAEL.
Genesis 49 shows, again, that the name of the second man is "Israel".
Isa 49:1
Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
...
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
So the second Man is not named Adam, and there is no true Adam in heaven but Enoch is raised in the name of Adam, so that the inheritance given to Adam is not lost.

Adam got cast out of Mount Eden and down to earth when he lost his covering as a son of God of the human being kind, and the defilement of Adam is irrevocable. We are all the seed of Adam who were in the loins of Adam as seed at the fall, and we are defiled forever in the Adam flesh.

There is no Adam in heaven, except that Enoch was translated to his body made for the glory and taken to Eden in heaven above [which is where Paradise, the Garden of God is], and dwells with the angels in his immortal body. Enoch is the firstborn son of Christ, by that adoption, but is named Adam, the name of the dead son of God [and we are all Adam, dead in spirit, until we are born again in Christ: that is our name as the first human being creation -Genesis 5:2], so that the inheritance is not lost which was given to Adam and ben Adam.

The law of firstborn son of a second husband to the widow of the deceased applies to Enoch's translation to Glory in his new man body, before the flood, even, came. That has to do with the inheritance -the dominion of earth and its heavenly realm, Mount Eden, so that it is not lost to "Adam"; which God gave to Adam, and is come in flesh as second Man to ransom back.

So Enoch, the only one in heaven called Adam as to his kind, has first place in heaven, as the firstborn adopted son of Christ, who is come in flesh as the Firstborn human being son of God.
the New Firstborn of earth.
Before you think to dismiss this, just read what the law is, and then you will be enlightened as to why Enoch was translated to glory and taken to Paradise, where the first Adam male and female persons got cast down and out of, at the fall.