Celtic Christianity?? Church of the East?

Hoonbaba · Jan 15, 2003

Here's a question for anyone:

What's Celtic Christianity? And what's Church of the East? Are they not part of the Church? Honestly I know nothing about them.

Thanks and God bless!

-Jason

The Squalid Wanderer · Jan 15, 2003

Celtic Christianity - Sort of nomenclature for a flavor of Christianity that grew up in the western celtic nations (i.e., Brittany, England prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasion, Ireland, etc.). Think of it like the differences between say the Irish, Italian and Polish Catholics. All in the same organzation, but there are certain peculiarities which tend to mark them out. There is no actual Celtic Christian.  Here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.orthodoxireland.com/was.htm

Now the Church of the East is an actual organzation. It is the continuation of those Churches which remained in agreement with Nestorius after the Council of Ephesus in 431. This division was greatly aided by the continued difficulties the empire was having in controlling the far eastern frontier and the fact that many of these Churches were already outside of the territorial boundaries of Rome, lying as they did in the Persian empire. If I recall correctly, this continues to be the Church of the East's stronghold, in the area around Iran and Iraq, although their numbers have been much diminished and they now count about 300,000.  Here is there official website:

http://www.cired.org/ace.html

Another facinating fact is that the Church of the East was probably the first to send missionary excursions into China, probably with merchants travelling the Silk Road. There are a couple of books out on this, one of which I just recently read excerpts from. There is some very exciting archeological work just now coming out about this facinating point of history, culture, and religious exchange. I am sure that there is much more to come as much of western China is relatively untouched.

The Squalid Wanderer · Jan 15, 2003

I forgot to answer your original question. The Church of the East is not part of the Catholic Church. They have been in ecumenical discussions with Catholicism as well as with the other Churches with apostolic succession.

Gideon4God · Jan 16, 2003

Celtic Christians have a close relationship with celtic pagan religion. ex. Anam Cara=Soul Friend

brewmama · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Gideon4God
Celtic Christians have a close relationship with celtic pagan religion. ex. Anam Cara=Soul Friend

I would not agree with this at all. St. Patrick, St. Columba, et al were in no way pagan. The Celtic Church was very consistent with Orthodoxy, and the Antiochian Archdiocese of the Orthodox Church has a Western Rite Liturgy (which my church-St. Columba Orthodox Church-uses). There is also an accepted Western Rite liturgy based on St. Gregory's Liturgy.

The book Anam Cara is not indicative of Orthodoxy, I think it's pretty pagan. There is a faddish movement to make the ancient Celtic Church something romantic, pagan, and something other than what it was.

Avila · Jan 16, 2003

The Celtic Church was (is?) more Orthodox in its leanings. Especially the further you dig into its history. I'm just beginning to scratch the surface, but it is really fascinating.

Gideon4God · Jan 16, 2003

Not true. Most of the Celtic saints were spin offs of pagan diety.

The Squalid Wanderer · Jan 16, 2003

Gideon4God. What saints are you speaking of?

You said most of them were, well, here is a list, so show me:

http://www.orthodoxireland.com/calendar.htm

dignitized · Jan 16, 2003

Hoon: if you are interested in the various churches which are essentially catholic in "flavor" this link is a great resource.

http://www.frimmin.com/faith/apostolic.html

I think we should be sure not to confuse the Celtic church with the church of the culdese which I believe is the church that ordained Sionad O'conner . . . .

brewmama · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Avila
The Celtic Church was (is?) more Orthodox in its leanings. Especially the further you dig into its history. I'm just beginning to scratch the surface, but it is really fascinating.

You're right, it is fascinating! Our Bishop is so supportive of Western Rite Orthodoxy, because Britain these days is fast leaving Christianity, and all those sacred, historic sites are getting ignored.

PS I forgot to mention that my daughter was born Feb. 6th, she's turning 10!

Lady Grace · Jan 18, 2003

Well, I have a friend she and her husband a few years back started their own Celtic Catholic Church......He is a Bishop and she was ordained a "priest".    They are not under Rome at all, therefore I don't consider it a "true" Catholic church. 

She has sent me a copy of their mass, which is almost identical to the valid regular Novus Ordo mass,,,but has some of the Latin rite included.I have never been to one,,,and don't plan on attending . I mean I am not one who feel women should be priests.

There are many ministeries in the Catholic church that women are needed and participate in,but I can't go with the priest thingy.

So, I am not exactly , what kind of Catholic church (Celtic), my friend and her husband are a part of, but I think it may be that some have just cut ties (if they ever had any) with Rome, and branched out on their own.

Don't really know,,,maybe someone out there understands the church I am referring too...

Peace and Love

Lady Grace

 

 

 

 

Hoonbaba · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by The Squalid Wanderer

Another facinating fact is that the Church of the East was probably the first to send missionary excursions into China, probably with merchants travelling the Silk Road. There are a couple of books out on this, one of which I just recently read excerpts from. There is some very exciting archeological work just now coming out about this facinating point of history, culture, and religious exchange. I am sure that there is much more to come as much of western China is relatively untouched.[/color] [/B]

Hi Squalid,

Thanks for sharing!  I'm fully aware of Church of the East sending missionaries to China =) In fact that's why I was interested in them

I think Bishop Alopen was the first major guy to enter China and share the gospel with the Chinese people.  I came across two books about China's early christian history:  The Jesus Sutras and Christ the eternal Tao.  The first book which contains a bunch of works written by Chinese people found in China (which the author calls 'The Jesus Sutras').  Supposedly it's as big as the Dead Sea Scrolls findings =)

Anyway, basically both both books teach that Christ was in the past honored from a Taoist perspective.  Tao = The Way.  So Christ is indeed the eternal dao, the eternal way (John 14:6) =)

I actually haven't read them yet, but they look fascinating.  I don't know if any of the things the books talk about are Orthodox but they'll definitely be worth reading.

By the way, I don't know if you already saw this but these sites might be interesting:

http://www.keikyo.com/xian/discovery_05_01.htm

http://www.yutopian.com/religion/

God bless!

-Jason

Hoonbaba · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by Br. Max
Hoon: if you are interested in the various churches which are essentially catholic in "flavor" this link is a great resource.

http://www.frimmin.com/faith/apostolic.html

I think we should be sure not to confuse the Celtic church with the church of the culdese which I believe is the church that ordained Sionad O'conner . . . .

Hi Max,

Thanks for the link! =)

But I'm curious to know:  Who's Sionad O'Conner?  And what church is that?

-Jason

jukesk9 · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Hi Max,

Thanks for the link! =)

But I'm curious to know:  Who's Sionad O'Conner?  And what church is that?

-Jason

Oh Br. Max.  You just made me feel OLD!  He doesn't know who Sinead O'Conner is

KC Catholic is a huge 80s music fan.  You might remember Prince's "Nothing Compares 2 U?"  She did a remake of it.  I'm sure KC has the album

Sinead had her hayday there in the 80s.  Anyway, her big controversy is when she was on Saturday Night Live (when you were just a wee little pup) and tore up a picture of Pope JPII. The next week, I think it was Joe Pesci who was on, and he put back together the picture of Pope JPII.  For like weeks, the press and everyone was taking shots at Sinead.  She joined a breakaway Catholic Church and was ordained a priest. 

dignitized · Jan 20, 2003

Jukes: you feel old because . . . . YOU ARE!!!

isshinwhat · Jan 21, 2003

I came across two books about China's early christian history: The Jesus Sutras...

I've got that! It's a good book. I really enjoyed reading it, and it appears fairly orthodox. I hesitate to say anything definate, though, because some of the missionaries are believed to have been Nestorian, hence the connection with the Church of the East. I really, really enjoyed the book, though. The respect and admiration the early Chinese had for Christianity surprised me quite a bit.

God Bless,

Neal

Gideon4God · Mar 9, 2003

17th January 2003 at 03:13 AM The Squalid Wanderer said this in Post #8

Gideon4God. What saints are you speaking of?

You said most of them were, well, here is a list, so show me:

http://www.orthodoxireland.com/calendar.htm

 

Sorry, I haven't been in here in a while and after reading my previous post I must ask your forgiveness and the forgiveness of the Holy Saints of the Olde Isle as well. 

Pray for me :pray:

To try and explain myself let me start by saying I have had a ruff go with all the so called "Celtic Orthodox" Church's.  That said...many of the lives of celtic saints have been influanced by celtic myths.  Folk lore displays this, but pls know that this does not detract from their holiness.  It was an error on my part.

CopticOrthodox · Mar 16, 2003

The first people to bring Christianity to Ireland were Egyptian (Coptic) monks.  Later Ireland became Catholic, and Christianity spread much more there under the influence of Catholic missionaries.  The relics of the Coptic monks are still in Ireland, but no one knows where.  You can find more information at the website of the British Orthodox Church (which is under the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate).

http://www.uk-christian.net/boc

http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/ireland.shtml

 http://www.uk-christian.net/boc/d.shtml

Gideon4God · Mar 16, 2003

CopticOrthodox,

Glade to have you here. I have heard the same story you tell but with Greek monks being the Orthodox missionaries. It doesn't matter, we do know that the Isles were Orthodox.

Gideon

CopticOrthodox · Mar 17, 2003

I believe it was long enough ago that we were one Church, so it really doesn't make any difference at all. But I'm pretty sure that history says they were Egyptian. The world has a tendancy to associate Orthodoxy with the Greeks, and no one has heard of us, so our authors and saints are often refered to commonly as Greek Orthodox by people who don't know the difference. It isn't a big deal.

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