Does God hate people??

Is 42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 65:22
Mt 24:22,24,31
Mk 13:20,22,27
Lk18:7
Ro 8:33, 11:7
Col 3:12
1 Tim 5:21
2 Tim 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Pet 1:2, 2:6, 5:13
2Jn 1 & 13

Hate cannot be found in God, for hate is evil in itself. God is not evil. Also, the verse in Malachi was a retrospective meditation - it was past. By God saying He 'hated' Esau, He meant that because of Esau's distaste for God, His wrath was returned to Him. He hated Esau because Esau first hated Him; this leaves room for extrinsic hate, not intrinsic, which certainly cannot be found in God. There is no wrath but on man's part.

blessings,

John

Originally posted by Received
Hate cannot be found in God, for hate is evil in itself. God is not evil. Also, the verse in Malachi was a retrospective meditation - it was past. By God saying He 'hated' Esau, He meant that because of Esau's distaste for God, His wrath was returned to Him. He hated Esau because Esau first hated Him; this leaves room for extrinsic hate, not intrinsic, which certainly cannot be found in God. There is no wrath but on man's part.

blessings,

John

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That is just wrong, I'm sorry. First, you are losing focus on one very important factor here. God does not owe us a thing. He created us and our only purpose in life is to glorify Him. He makes the rules and loving us is not something that He is obligated to do. We are commanded not to hate, so hate is evil for us. God lives under no such law.

As for the second part of your statement concerning God hating Esau because Esau did something to deserve it. Read the following carefully:

Romans 9
11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

GOD IS LOVE

... and there is no hate in love.

Originally posted by Warrior FC
GOD IS LOVE

... and there is no hate in love.

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Maybe you're reading a different bible version than I am. What does your bible say concerning the verses I posted above?

Good point!.... We are often reprogramed to speak the things we have heard passed down from others and i think that is where I got what i wrote.

As we consider the word "hate" means to dislike something with strong feeling.

I can honestly say I don't understand why the scriptures say that about god hating Esau (A Person) ... it something to pray about though!

That is just wrong, I'm sorry. First, you are losing focus on one very important factor here. God does not owe us a thing. He created us and our only purpose in life is to glorify Him. He makes the rules and loving us is not something that He is obligated to do. We are commanded not to hate, so hate is evil for us. God lives under no such law.

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The statement about God owing us salvation is irrelevant. It would not be an evil, or good, action for Him concening this. It was just. If God had evil within His character, we would never know Him. It was mercy that allowed Him to break the seal.

Hate is evil in itself. Evil is a subjective perversion created by imperfect man. There is no way any of this can be found in God, who is nothing less than perfection. Perversion is not found in perfection. I do not belieive that God created us so much as to glorify Him - He does not NEED glory - but for the part of communion, which is more personal than an abstract form of worship, though this is certainly necessary concerning the reverence we are to voluntarily have for Him. As the bible says, He who fears has not been made perfect in love. His glory is in our communion.

The Romans 9 verse is one in light of the foreknowledge of God. He still cannot hate intrinsically. If anything, it is His foreknowledge of Esau's actions that God planned according to (Prov. 16:9), for, Old or New Testament, God desires all to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), and has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekial 33:11). This would leave no room for God using a person instrumentally, for if He did so, and thus did not allow them to reject Him by their own choice, justice would be smeared, for how could He condemn someone that HE intentionally created to be corrupt? We all know that valuing people instrumentally is inhumane; this is ridiculous to claim God is of this kind. Shall we outmercify Him? The Calvinist interpretation concerning this passage contradicts the genuine goodness of God.

blessings,

John

Are you sure HATE is evil?... Look it up!

I just did...

Hate in itself is evil. By this I mean hate for no sole purpose; hate without a reason. We are to hate sin, and anything evil. But God intentionally 'hating' someone 'blindly' (without foreknowledge of their events), and the fact that this statement was even a recollection of past events ('Esau I HATED'), does not add up to His character. Love cannot do this.

Received,

You are obviously a very intelligent person. I think that you are letting that and your personal opinion of things stand in the way of the truth. Biblically speaking your opinions are unsupported. You say that God's feelings toward Esau are based on God's foreknowledge. How do you come to that conclusion after reading God's word which speaks against that notion?

Hate is not evil. disobeying god is evil. We are told to love all men. So, for us hate is evil. God lives under no such requirement.

This would leave no room for God using a person instrumentally, for if He did so, and thus did not allow them to reject Him by their own choice, justice would be smeared, for how could He condemn someone that HE intentionally created to be corrupt? We all know that valuing people instrumentally is inhumane; this is ridiculous to claim God is of this kind.

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Apparently you need to keep reading that passage in Romans. Consider what we are told about Pharaoh and the vessels.

Justice? Funny idea of justice you have, I bet. All people should go to heaven right? We all deserve it, don't we? No. We don't. We all deserve hell and if it weren't for the mercies of a wonderful God none of us would have eternal life. Yet some of us were snatched from the pits of hell, made alive and adopted into the family of God. It is His will and His desire, not our works or choice. What did Christ tell the Apostles about their choice?
6“You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

So the term HATE is obviously not a word that we rightly understand!

How do you come to that conclusion after reading God's word which speaks against that notion?

Hate is not evil. disobeying god is evil. We are told to love all men. So, for us hate is evil. God lives under no such requirement.

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I come to this through uinversal passages such as 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, and Ezekial 33:11. Romans nine is directly after Romans 8:29,20, which speaks of God's foreknowledge being involved in a person's eventual glorification (and this is wonderful, because these four links are solid proof for OSAS). Everyone would agree that God is not speaking of everyone being foreknown in v. 29, for if this were the case, then salvation would eventually come to everyone. Calvinists (and I would agree) say that this speaks of those who God 'foreloved'. We see here that who God foreloved (that is, loved before their births in accordance with their works before they actually committed them) He also predestined; moreover, whom He predestined, etc. etc. This is a clear formula of how the elect are dealt with in scripture. Because God foreknows all of this, and this would include Romans 9, He is respecting our free will. It is an absolute contradiction to claim that God over-rides a person's free will unto condemnation, and then to come back and say that He desires all to be saved.

And it still stands that hate is in itself evil. If I get up and decide to hate someone 'blindly' - that is, without a care of their relation to me - then this is evil. With God, hate, and wrath, are expressions that are reflexive in terms of man's hate for Him. Perfect love cannot, in itself, hate. It can punish - and it is only perfect love that can punish perfectly. But God cannot hate someone regardless of their stand in life. He allows them to choose, and directs their steps according to it (Proverbs 16:9), using even the evil (Proverbs 16:4), and days of adversity (Ecclesiastes 7:14), of which were not 'originally' planned by God when He first created, for a better cause.

I never said all should go to heaven. All deserve Hell, but all who accept salvation are given everlasting life. Man may be spiritually dead, but He has eternity, and thus the yearnings for God, in His heart (Ecclesiastes 3:11). Because God has chosen to save a few, all are open to the request. God, being love, would not keep any out against their will. He desires all to be saved. He cannot over-ride a person's free will. There may be some seeming objections to this in scripture, but I believe all are handled out in accordance with a soveregn respect, by God, for man made in His image.

And in agreement with your verse, man would never choose God. It is God that must let man realize that He exists. But the instance that this happens is unknown, and only logically sound through the idea of honest searching. Egocentricism is a disease that too many refuse to be cured from, and that itself takes out an extreme percentage of those who would otherwise have the chance at salvation. When a sacrifice is given, it is up to those that were granted it to accept or reject it. And we see this all the time. Pride is what places a man in Hell. Not God.

Please (Please!!!!!) don't get the idea that I'm some wishy-washy Arminian. Anything but that. I prefer not to be labeled - I have tried arminianism, universalism, and calvinism for extended periods of time. Now I am leaning towards middle-knowledge in terms of God's election, but I do not hold to Molinism as strict doctrine. I just believe.

I hope this cleared some things up.

blessings,

John

I understand your point, but I wonder why you are sporting the Presbeterian Icon. Hey, dude, this has been a huge stumbling point for me. I understand from the bible that Jesus died for my sins not because of anything I have done but because of his devine love and obedience to the father. The bible even says he died for all. What I can't figure is why he would die for me and predestine me for salvation and pass by nearly every other guy at my campus (I go to a large university). If it is my faith that saves me, even that I have recieved from God; I can't boast in that. the bible says god doesn't show favoritism, but predestination seems like just that to me. Be glad to hear an encouraging word on this one, gang!

hey, i'm new btw. and i didn't notice that i hadn't read all the posts. I think one thing we as humans do is to think that God is entirely like us. He's not. he's righteous and just and loving and merciful and holy and beautiful and patient and pure. I am sick of thinking of this stuff man. Every question I ask about about this whole Armenian-Calvinist-Universalist leads to an answer that I wasn't satisfied in to begin with. Straight-up, i'm beginning to doubt the inerrancy of scripture...and that would mean I'm hanging on the edge of oblivion when it comes to a "worldview". If the God of Israel hates most people just so his plan of election is fulfilled, then...wow...why would he pick me to show his grace? Show the other guys, too, God! If you're so big, show the other guys too!

I understand your point, but I wonder why you are sporting the Presbeterian Icon

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I sport that icon because that's what I am.

i'm beginning to doubt the inerrancy of scripture

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Scripture is certainly the God breathed and infallible word that it claims to be. It is not the word that confuses, but the false teachings of men. In today's society we are more worried about filling seats and making people feel good than we are about telling the truth. Rather than say what poeple need to hear, we say what they want to hear. What happens when you lie? Eventually you begin to contradict yourself or the material you claim to be teaching. The contradictions you are finding are not in the word, they are in what you have been taught.

For instance, it is plain that the bible says that some are elect and that some are not. But you are also told that the bible says that Christ died for all. This is a contradiction, but not in scripture. If the passages containing "all" are taught in context you will find that all is referring to all nations or races, not every single person. In 1 and 2 Peter when Peter says that God wishes all of you would be saved, he is not talking to the world, if you read his salutation at the beginning you will see that he speaks to a specific group of christians. So, if I say to my Sunday School class, "I hope that all of you will be saved and that none of you should perish." Who am I talking to? All of a specific group of people or every single person in the world? Context is everything, dude.

I will pray for you and your confusion. If you have any specific questions please feel free to ask. You may PM me if you'd like. Don't let false teachers turn you away from the truth. Satan uses them more than any other means of deception.

2 Timothy 4:3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

I believe that God hates sin....if He hates some people for how they've chosen to respond to Him, well that's God's right, what with being God and all!!!!  He's made it pretty clear that His ways are not our ways...)  I also believe He's given us free will to choose who we will serve, and that we will all be accountable for how we've chosen to respond to His offer of forgiveness and salvation through Jesus.  If we decide to not accept Christ, that's our decision, and  the consequences are clear- hell forever.  It's not God sending anyone to hell, it's a person's choice to not accept what God has offered to keep us out of hell.  There was a period in my life when I questioned my beliefs about heaven and hell, and before I really started looking for a deeper relationship with Christ, I figured- if there's a chance hell is real, I don't want to be there!   God got a hold of me not long after that and started doing some amazing things in my life, and now I know that I want to obey Him and serve Him out of an indescribable gratitude for what He's done for me.   But it's always been my choice. I don't think it makes sense for God to ignore sin and make heaven an open-door to all manner of unforgiven sin- it couldn't be heaven with unforgiven sin in it.   I'm not all formally trained in the Bible, but do have some understanding of what salvation and forgiveness, and accountability and free will mean.... God is fair- heaven is open to all who accept the gift on God's terms- He doesn't limit who gets in and who doesn't- people do that by not accepting God's terms....

For instance, it is plain that the bible says that some are elect and that some are not. But you are also told that the bible says that Christ died for all. This is a contradiction, but not in scripture. If the passages containing "all" are taught in context you will find that all is referring to all nations or races, not every single person. In 1 and 2 Peter when Peter says that God wishes all of you would be saved, he is not talking to the world, if you read his salutation at the beginning you will see that he speaks to a specific group of christians. So, if I say to my Sunday School class, "I hope that all of you will be saved and that none of you should perish." Who am I talking to? All of a specific group of people or every single person in the world? Context is everything, dude.

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The issue is not nearly so simple as you make it appear. The interpretation you advance is hardly a slam-dunk, and even Reformed writers have acknowledged that. I don't say that there you don't have a legitimate argument, but to assume that the matter is resolved simply by context is to deny a very serious theological controversy, with learned and faithful men on both sides.

This article by Reformed theologian John Piper gives a somewhat more extensive treatment of the idea: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html. I don't agree with it, obviously, but I think it does a good job of surveying the Scriptural questions involved without oversimplifying the case.

So the term HATE is obviously not a word that we rightly understand!

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The Hebrew idiom used in the passages about Jacob and Esau actually should translate to "loves less."

I'm not quite sure how the passages in Romans ever became about individual salvation, when so far as I can tell, it was written in response to the mistaken Jewish beliefs that 1) Jews could earn salvation from God by following the law, and 2) Gentiles were barred from salvation. But that's just me.