Absolutely SICK.

brewmama · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by juiblex
ignoring how incorrect you are about everything else:

by your logic, any spontaneous abortion is also deserving of an eternity in the pits of hell, with the brimstone and all that jazz. in fact, lets hope you dont menstruate again, that could have been a person and a life but you chose to let it slip by.

You honestly cannot see the difference in spontaneous and intentional abortion? Really?

Let's see. Would you say that a child accidently falling in a lake and drowning is the same morally as someone pushing him in and holding him under?

crazyfingers · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by brewmama
You honestly cannot see the difference in spontaneous and intentional abortion? Really?

Let's see. Would you say that a child accidently falling in a lake and drowning is the same morally as someone pushing him in and holding him under?

 

I think that you know that that is not a fair analogy.

I don't accept that a one or two cell organizm without a brain, no consiousness of any find, should be given any human rights, expecially considering that from the point of view of the woman, an embryo could be viewed simply as a parasite.

GTX · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by crazyfingers
Good.  But then I wonder why mention a heartbeat? 

I am not qualified to differentiate between what is considered a living human and a non living human.

I tend to feel that once an egg is fertilized and has left the fallopian tubes and has implanted it is then life.

GTX · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by brewmama
You honestly cannot see the difference in spontaneous and intentional abortion? Really?

Let's see. Would you say that a child accidently falling in a lake and drowning is the same morally as someone pushing him in and holding him under?

Easy mama, she's young.

Gunny · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by crazyfingers

an embryo could be viewed simply as a parasite.

Amazing.

lisa03wilson · Jan 16, 2003

there is a difference between someone getting rid of an embryo and the natural passing of an egg. an egg has no genetic identity of it's own, it does not have the genes needed to ever grow into a human by itself. an embryo, on the other hand, has it's own genetic identity, different from both the mother and the father, and will grow in most cases if left alone. If a person cuts off a finger, they haven't killed anyone, because the finger was just a part of them, but once the egg is fertilized, it is different from the mother, and now its own life.

Spontaneous abortion is in no way controlled by the mother, she cant cause it or stop it (unless she does something like throw herself down the stairs, but than it could be called intentional).

if a child were to get sick and die, it would be sad, but if the parents did all they could, they cant be held resopnsible. If they posioned or stabbed the child, they would be held responsible. same with spontaneous and intentional abortion.

crazyfingers · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by gunnysgt
Amazing.

What I find much more amazing were the first two posts in this topic.  I can not relate to the beliefs expressed there.

 

TheBear · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by crazyfingers
Good.  But then I wonder why mention a heartbeat? 

I think I know. When erroneuos terms like 'heartbeat' and 'baby' are interjected into a discussion of what is the begining of a life form, it kind of adds more of an emotional punch to the conversation, creating images of, ....well.... newborn babies or embryos developed to the stage where they are in the form of tiny humans, and not just a cluster of dividing cells.

I don't think this is intentional, though.

Personally, I wrestle with question of the time which we have souls. After all, it is the soul that makes us completely human. There are several scripture that refers to having to be born. Born again, born twice, born of water, and born of spirit. God, breathed life into Adam.

I'm rambling at this point. These are just some scattered thoughts to think about.

GTX · Jan 16, 2003

I don't believe birth control pills are a sin or considered abortion, as long as they are used by married couples, and not abused by people who fornicate and engage in premarital sex.

I do believe that blocking a fertilized egg from dropping into the uterus is dangerous territory.

crazyfingers · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by TheBear
I think I know. When erroneuos terms like 'heartbeat' and 'baby' are interjected into a discussion of what is the begining of a life form, it kind of adds more of an emotional punch to the conversation, creating images of, ....well.... newborn babies or embryos developed to the stage where they are in the form of tiny humans, and not just a cluster of dividing cells.

I don't think this is intentional, though.

I see. While perhaps unintentional, it tends to draw discussion away from reasoned arguments and into the realm of emotional arguments.  It is probably an effective tactic if one wants to "win" an argument but it probably does not help if the goal is for the most reasonable argument to "win".

Personally, I wrestle with question of the time which we have souls. After all, it is the soul that makes us completely human. There are several scripture that refers to having to be born. Born again, born twice, born of water, and born of spirit. God, breathed life into Adam.

I'm rambling at this point. These are just some scattered thoughts to think about.

Click to expand...

Actually that reminds me of a puzzle that I've had for a long time.  How would the soul of a one cell organizm get along with the souls of organisms that have lived full lives?  I see Christians talk as if they think that they will retain their memories in an afterlife.  But how would a one cell organism do that?

GTX · Jan 16, 2003

Ummm, hey Bear, I think Mariucci is outta San Fran, you'll need a new avatar.

juiblex · Jan 16, 2003

darn browser crashes... serves me right for not using Mandrake... grrr...

Originally posted by GTX
Huh?

A fertilized embryo with heartbeat

what?

is sufficient to be called life and no one should take this life, period, it is biblical. Also if you don't like it or believe the bible then make your point clearly so we can correct you.

ok, what the drug does is it changes the lining of the uterus in order to prevent implantation. in fact, i am on a contraceptive <not for contraceptive purposes although> which does the same thing, but is not yet available in the US. it changes the lining of the uterus, and assuming similarity between this and what im on <i cant access the link, it takes me to a login page> most likely it will also change the consistency of the fluid inside in order to prevent sperm from reaching the egg and also prevent the egg from maturing.

the egg is just that, an egg and it cannot survive outside the womb. it is a clump of cells, not even that at this stage, like cancer or any other growth inside the body. it does not breathe, it doesnt respond to stimuli, it cannot adapt or survive outside of its immediate environment. it has no conciousness, it is not sentient.

also, it cannot be classified as murder. you are not actually killing the egg, it is passing from one environment to the other and it cannot survive on its own. it is dependent on the woman, and as such 'parasite' is a more appropriate term.

two cells, or a couple more if it has cleaved is not deserving of human rights simply because it is not human yet it is a growth and nothing more. the bible has no passages whatsoever on cells.

Besides your quote from Susan says nothing of spontaneous abortion. Can you define or give examples of spontaneous abortion?

the fact you asked this leads me to believe you dont know what a spontaeous abortion is. and as such, you can do your own research. i have better things to do.

Kids....

if you are interested in a conversation and questions, then please refrain from patronising me and dismissing my opinion based on your predjudices.

I do believe that blocking a fertilized egg from dropping into the uterus is dangero

uh, the egg would pass out naturally, it wouldnt be blocked at all. if it were blocked from entering the uterus that might result in a fallopian tube pregnancy and would not only defeat the purpose of a contraceptive but would place the woman under risk.

brewmama · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by crazyfingers
I see. While perhaps unintentional, it tends to draw discussion away from reasoned arguments and into the realm of emotional arguments.  It is probably an effective tactic if one wants to "win" an argument but it probably does not help if the goal is for the most reasonable argument to "win".

Actually that reminds me of a puzzle that I've had for a long time.  How would the soul of a one cell organizm get along with the souls of organisms that have lived full lives?  I see Christians talk as if they think that they will retain their memories in an afterlife.  But how would a one cell organism do that?

I think they would get along as well as babies who die at birth, infants that die, toddlers that die, retarded people that die, old people who have become senile that die...

It is not rational mature thought that gives a human dignity and worth.

GTX · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by juiblex
.

uh, the egg would pass out naturally, it wouldnt be blocked at all. if it were blocked from entering the uterus that might result in a fallopian tube pregnancy and would not only defeat the purpose of a contraceptive but would place the woman under risk.

I know, it is abortion.

I have been through numerous tubal pregnancies with my wife, I know whats up. I just didn't like your seemingly immature statements.

But now you are sounding a little more mature. Thats good.

juiblex · Jan 16, 2003

I know, it is abortion.

no, its not. abortion is the forced removal of the inseminated attached embryo, this passes out naturally. hence it is a contraceptive and not an abortion pill.

juiblex · Jan 16, 2003

I know, it is abortion.

I have been through numerous tubal pregnancies with my wife, I know whats up. I just didn't like your seemingly immature statements.

But now you are sounding a little more mature. Thats good.

and now you sound more like youre judging me on the merit of my posts rather than simply my age. thats good, well, better.

crazyfingers · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by brewmama
I think they would get along as well as babies who die at birth, infants that die, toddlers that die, retarded people that die, old people who have become senile that die...

It is not rational mature thought that gives a human dignity and worth.

However there is no thought at all in an embryo. All of the examples above have brains and think in some way.

GTX · Jan 16, 2003

The real question should be: Is a fertilized egg considered life (no matter where it's at).

And for the record I do condone and advocate immediate removal of a fetus from an ectopic pregnancy. Ectopics whether in the abdomen or tubes is almost always deadly. I know tubals are deadly. I almost lost my wife from a tubal pregnancy (8 week old fetus in the fallopian tube with heartbeat, but with no chance for survival.)

GTX · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by juiblex
no, its not. abortion is the forced removal of the inseminated attached embryo, this passes out naturally. hence it is a contraceptive and not an abortion pill.

My CP at school here is slow and the site doesn't want to come up, are we talking about passing a fertilized embryo/egg? If it is we should at least try to define when life is considered to occur.

crazyfingers · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by GTX
The real question should be: Is a fertilized egg considered life (no matter where it's at).

Why? Generic life? A sperm cell is life. Would you protect them?

How about a bacteria that is inside the human body?  That's life.

I don't think that "life" is a good working definiton for what you want to define.

Absolutely SICK.

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