"Dear Lord, I am a good person and an Atheist . . ."

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CaliforniaSun

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What about atheism is confusing?

Not believing in a god.

^^ It's fairly simple. :thumbsup:

As a former Christian, believing in the bible/Christianity/Jesus-as-god, etc., was much, much more convoluted.
I agree. The more I studied the Bible, it became painfully obvious that no one was really sure what christianity, faith, or correct doctrine is.

The Bible was right about a few things however; you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

Life makes so much more sense when I let logic, reason, morality, kindness and love dictate my behavior. :thumbsup:
 
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Beanieboy

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I guess atheists aren't hard to understand after all - this seems spot on to how I translated the garbled mess in the OP. It's always good to be reminded of the silent majority of Christians who are reasonable normal people.

Yeah, it is. For a short time, I decided to stop calling myself "Christian." In part, it was because I was so digusted at the way people with AIDS in the 80s were condemned rather than given compassion or care, and gay people specifically were told they were no longer welcome in a number of churches. However, the real problem? I just got really, really tired of having to defend my faith, NOT to atheists - they allowed me to have my beliefs because I allowed them to have theirs - but fellow Christians, that constantly would tell me that I wasn't a True Christian (TM) because it is impossible to be gay and Christian at the same time.

Frustrated and after dealing with this for years, I said, "Fine. Then I'm not a Christian. I am a Buddhist." I studied Buddhism, and at its core, was very parallel to the teachings of Christ. However, Buddhism taught to search our thoughts, because impure thoughts lead to impure words and then impure deeds. If it was snuffed at he source, it wouldn't reach the word or deed end. Christians seemed to have the idea that as long as I don't lash out at you, especially because they REALLY wanted to, that they were somehow good - Good for denying themselves to sin against their neighbor.

Buddhism on the other hand, taught that one should not just hold back sins upon one another, but should always be acting in love, and to give that love actively without asking for anything in return.

So, one day I was walking in Uptown Minneapolis. A young woman asked me if I knew Jesus. While I continued to pray to the same God as when I was Christian, I simply refered to God as "I am" and not associate God with any one religion. So, I answered, "Yes, I know Jesus."
She asked if I was a Christian and I said no. She couldn't understand, but why did she want me to believe in Jesus and God the Father?

Her stress: So that I wouldn't go to hell.

It wasn't about knowing God and his love. It wasn't about being filled with joy. It wasn't about learning true forgiveness. It wasn't about God giving his love to us freely, and what he wished for us to pray for. It wasn't about anything joyful.

It was only about escaping God's wrath. And that is why I understand atheists. The Christian comes to the atheist and basically says, "Please love my Dad, or he will kill you!!"

That isn't how it works. God spends a huge amount of time trying to get our attention, rather than us needing to get his. God showers us with love and blessing in an effort to demonstrate his love. And God loves us first, not so that we will love him back and stroke his ego, but so that we become love, and love selflessly, as God loves us, and love each other as our demonstration of love for God and thankfulness for him loving us first.

That is biblical. I'll quote if you want it.

What I have been told is that if I stop being gay (as if that is possible), THEN God will accept me. Then God will love me. I have heard that the unsaved should basically make a New Creation of themselves BEFORE starting a relationship with God. I have been told by Christians that X sin will bar you from heaven, BUT at the same time telling me that I can't earn my way into heaven by doing any kind of good deed.

So, do you blame the atheist? It doesn't make must sense logically.
 
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Supernaut

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I agree. The more I studied the Bible, it became painfully obvious that no one was really sure what christianity, faith, or correct doctrine is.

The Bible was right about a few things however; you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

Life makes so much more sense when I let logic, reason, morality, kindness and love dictate my behavior. :thumbsup:

I too have had the same experience. Shedding myself of christianity has opened up a whole new world full of life and happiness.
 
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Beanieboy

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I remember being here and being pleaded with a Christian to please understand the gravity of my sin of homosexuality. The poster didn't know me, didn't know how I expressed my sexuality, but just assumed that she knew better. I told her that I have talked about this with God literally once a week but as regularly as daily, since I was around 13 or 14, and I am 47 now, and still go to God, to make sure that I understood Him, that he is ok with me. Every time I pray like this, I feel only God's love, and nothing more.

This is quite different than when I wrong another. I will try to justify it, try to blame the victim, but there is a quiet voice that says, "Beanie....you know better." And I do, and it continues until I right the wrong.

However, with my orientation, I have never known anything from God in my prayer time except love and welcoming. It is only those in the Church that I have made me to endure accusations, condemnation, and daring to claim that God didn't love me, and that I disgusted Him.

She then told me that I needed to pray, not to "my" god, but to the One True God, hers. I said, "Ok, ok. I will promise to do this: I will take all of this to God, and address God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and Saviour, and the Holy Spirt. I will tell God that I am seeking his guidance, and to show me if I am in error of my understanding of homosexuality, and I will listen and obey."

I then asked that since I agreed to her plea, if she would pray the same prayer. She was incensed. "Why should I????" How dare I question whether she could possibly be mistaken.

I argued, "If you are right, you will be more confident in your faith. If you are wrong, you will be a little closer to God. I will say nothing to taunt you, but rather, rejoice for you and God for being a little closer. It's a win-win."

But she refused.

She asked me to turn to God about it, but was unwilling to humble herself before God, to admit that she may be wrong, and ask for His guidance.

I followed through with my promise anyway. I prayed specifically to God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit. I asked for guidance. I said that if I had strayed from God, even though I prayed during my Buddhism, that I was very sorry, and was only seeking to understand Truth and Love better.

What happened next I can't explain. It was kind of like a dream, and one that rarely happens. God spoke. God said, "You have never strayed from me, but I have been with you always. I have known you since your infancy. I continue to hold my hands out to offer you my love. But you have been deceived that it wasn't there. You have every right to pick up the title of calling yourself a Child of God. All you have to do is just accept my love."

What I suddenly understood is that we don't fall in or out of God's favor. God loves us. We sin, and God loves us. We love, and God loves us. So, we are free to live without fear of losing God's love, and because of that, I felt happy. I felt like a weight had been lifted. I knew that to thank God for loving me, I could love others as He showed me, and not need that they love me back. Being Christian wasn't about this or that sin, and feeling guilty. It was about living Christ by living everyone moment in love, by allowing God's love to simply flow through us. It was about forgiveness rather than a demand to be perfect.

And that really was Good News.

I felt happy.

So, I wrote about it.

The response? A Christian poster was angry that I had changed my icon to Christian. He said that I was NOT a Christian. I said, "And yet, I am. " He said that it was impossible to be gay and Christian. I said, "Well, God has done the impossible, and I am a miracle of God's power." He accused me of not knowing God. I said, "And yet, I do." Livid, he demanded that I deny that I know Christ, and deny that I am saved.

Now think about that: a Christian demanding that I deny Christ.

I finally told him that just because he says I have blue hair doesn't make it so. He is free to say what he wishes, accuse me of what he wishes, but I know better because my faith it strong, and all he has are pointless words.

But kind of a weird reaction, huh?

So, I find that atheists usually make far more sense to me that fellow believers sometimes, and agree with them when they think that some believers are bonkers.
 
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SonOfTheWest

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I believe that the moral designation by thoughts not on actions and character will, in an increasingly globalized world, lead to it's undoing. While it is hardly the only factor involved. It's survival in diverse cultures is at risk due to this.
 
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uberd00b

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Let me correct that. It's unbelievably difficult to understand atheism.

It makes no sense when really dug into.
I honestly think if a theist was to grasp atheism they would become an atheist. Once the view is comprehended all the mystery and problems of theism are answered in one quick concise and obvious answer.
 
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Mling

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I remember being here and being pleaded with a Christian to please understand the gravity of my sin of homosexuality. The poster didn't know me, didn't know how I expressed my sexuality, but just assumed that she knew better. I told her that I have talked about this with God literally once a week but as regularly as daily, since I was around 13 or 14, and I am 47 now, and still go to God, to make sure that I understood Him, that he is ok with me. Every time I pray like this, I feel only God's love, and nothing more.

This is quite different than when I wrong another. I will try to justify it, try to blame the victim, but there is a quiet voice that says, "Beanie....you know better." And I do, and it continues until I right the wrong.

However, with my orientation, I have never known anything from God in my prayer time except love and welcoming. It is only those in the Church that I have made me to endure accusations, condemnation, and daring to claim that God didn't love me, and that I disgusted Him.

She then told me that I needed to pray, not to "my" god, but to the One True God, hers. I said, "Ok, ok. I will promise to do this: I will take all of this to God, and address God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and Saviour, and the Holy Spirt. I will tell God that I am seeking his guidance, and to show me if I am in error of my understanding of homosexuality, and I will listen and obey."

I then asked that since I agreed to her plea, if she would pray the same prayer. She was incensed. "Why should I????" How dare I question whether she could possibly be mistaken.

I argued, "If you are right, you will be more confident in your faith. If you are wrong, you will be a little closer to God. I will say nothing to taunt you, but rather, rejoice for you and God for being a little closer. It's a win-win."

But she refused.

She asked me to turn to God about it, but was unwilling to humble herself before God, to admit that she may be wrong, and ask for His guidance.

I followed through with my promise anyway. I prayed specifically to God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit. I asked for guidance. I said that if I had strayed from God, even though I prayed during my Buddhism, that I was very sorry, and was only seeking to understand Truth and Love better.

What happened next I can't explain. It was kind of like a dream, and one that rarely happens. God spoke. God said, "You have never strayed from me, but I have been with you always. I have known you since your infancy. I continue to hold my hands out to offer you my love. But you have been deceived that it wasn't there. You have every right to pick up the title of calling yourself a Child of God. All you have to do is just accept my love."

What I suddenly understood is that we don't fall in or out of God's favor. God loves us. We sin, and God loves us. We love, and God loves us. So, we are free to live without fear of losing God's love, and because of that, I felt happy. I felt like a weight had been lifted. I knew that to thank God for loving me, I could love others as He showed me, and not need that they love me back. Being Christian wasn't about this or that sin, and feeling guilty. It was about living Christ by living everyone moment in love, by allowing God's love to simply flow through us. It was about forgiveness rather than a demand to be perfect.

And that really was Good News.

I felt happy.

So, I wrote about it.

The response? A Christian poster was angry that I had changed my icon to Christian. He said that I was NOT a Christian. I said, "And yet, I am. " He said that it was impossible to be gay and Christian. I said, "Well, God has done the impossible, and I am a miracle of God's power." He accused me of not knowing God. I said, "And yet, I do." Livid, he demanded that I deny that I know Christ, and deny that I am saved.

Now think about that: a Christian demanding that I deny Christ.

I finally told him that just because he says I have blue hair doesn't make it so. He is free to say what he wishes, accuse me of what he wishes, but I know better because my faith it strong, and all he has are pointless words.

But kind of a weird reaction, huh?

So, I find that atheists usually make far more sense to me that fellow believers sometimes, and agree with them when they think that some believers are bonkers.

Thank you for posting this--I noticed, of course, when you switched from Buddhist to Christian. I've always wondered what brought that on.
 
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Mling

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I honestly think if a theist was to grasp atheism they would become an atheist. Once the view is comprehended all the mystery and problems of theism are answered in one quick concise and obvious answer.

Quick, concise, (sometimes/often) obvious and beautiful! I've been atheist for a few years now, and am still struck by how amazingly beautiful the world is, seen through my new eyes.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I've been atheist for a few years now, and am still struck by how amazingly beautiful the world is, seen through my new eyes.

Indeed, it is much like having new eyes.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Tinker Grey

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Quick, concise, (sometimes/often) obvious and beautiful! I've been atheist for a few years now, and am still struck by how amazingly beautiful the world is, seen through my new eyes.

Indeed, it is much like having new eyes.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Same experience here.
 
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BleedingHeart

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Same experience here.

Wasn't a big deal for me. Then again, I was only ever a Christian in the broadest possible sense. Didn't go to church, didn't pray to God, but I did believe that he existed. I don't remember any fire and brimstone techniques. In my experience black churches tend not to use them.
 
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Jase

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I remember being here and being pleaded with a Christian to please understand the gravity of my sin of homosexuality. The poster didn't know me, didn't know how I expressed my sexuality, but just assumed that she knew better. I told her that I have talked about this with God literally once a week but as regularly as daily, since I was around 13 or 14, and I am 47 now, and still go to God, to make sure that I understood Him, that he is ok with me. Every time I pray like this, I feel only God's love, and nothing more.

.
Thanks as always for your candor Beanie. Sadly, I'm sure there are quite a few posters on this board, or anywhere else who hear the above and will claim it's Satan telling you your feelings of being loved as a gay person are genuine, and not God, since clearly God considers it an "abomination". :doh:

I'm still a theist, but like you I honestly hate labeling myself Christian. I don't like the baggage that goes with it, or the typical attitude of most Christians I debate/interact with. For that reason I consider myself a Reform Jew, who believes Jesus is the promised Messiah. While technically, based on the Greek meaning, Christian means "Follower of the annointed one", modern day Christianity, especially in the US puts a very bad taste in my mouth.

And what's more aggravating is those who are guilty of pushing that image of Christianity are the ones who will accuse us of not being "True Christians".

It's all so frustrating. And while I don't forsee myself becoming an atheist, despite having doubts, I can sympathize with many of their feelings and I can see why they would be led that way - even if I disagree.
 
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hollyda

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Wasn't a big deal for me. Then again, I was only ever a Christian in the broadest possible sense. Didn't go to church, didn't pray to God, but I did believe that he existed. I don't remember any fire and brimstone techniques. In my experience black churches tend not to use them.

Wow. You got off easy.

My youth was spent being certain God would send me to Hell because of my obsessive thoughts (I have OCD). I'd pray over and over and over again, but every time I envisioned my inner slate being marked clean, I'd get another obsessive thought and rinse, wash, repeat. The church I went to encouraged this.

After a while, I became frustrated -- the more you don't want to have obsessive thoughts, the more you have them. It's a vicious cycle. I did start going to less fire-and-brimstoney churches for several years, and cared enough about my religious upbringing to minor in it in college. However, the more I read, the less I believed. Now I just have a healthy respect for Christianity's positive message, even if I only respect a handful of its followers.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Wasn't a big deal for me. Then again, I was only ever a Christian in the broadest possible sense. Didn't go to church, didn't pray to God, but I did believe that he existed. I don't remember any fire and brimstone techniques. In my experience black churches tend not to use them.

Heh. I was an elder in my church.
 
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BleedingHeart

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Wow. You got off easy.

My youth was spent being certain God would send me to Hell because of my obsessive thoughts (I have OCD). I'd pray over and over and over again, but every time I envisioned my inner slate being marked clean, I'd get another obsessive thought and rinse, wash, repeat. The church I went to encouraged this.

After a while, I became frustrated -- the more you don't want to have obsessive thoughts, the more you have them. It's a vicious cycle. I did start going to less fire-and-brimstoney churches for several years, and cared enough about my religious upbringing to minor in it in college. However, the more I read, the less I believed. Now I just have a healthy respect for Christianity's positive message, even if I only respect a handful of its followers.

What does OCD have to do with Christianity?
The only one who gave a sincere crap about Christianity was my grandmother (best woman of all time. Period. No discussion), but even she eventually realized that nobody in our family wanted to go to church on Sundays.
 
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I think as christians and since each relationship with God is unique we all have our issues to workout with God...their is no such thing as a perfect christian only a sinner that desires to be like Christ...plus the best way to share God is to admit the dirt you were in when he washed you white as snow...and let the other person know that God can do the same in their life.
 
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CaliforniaSun

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I think as christians and since each relationship with God is unique we all have our issues to workout with God...their is no such thing as a perfect christian only a sinner that desires to be like Christ...plus the best way to share God is to admit the dirt you were in when he washed you white as snow...and let the other person know that God can do the same in their life.
I admit there is no such thing as sin, only consequences. This is your concept to work out, not mine. If taking solace in the idea that a hman was sacrificed for you, good on ya'.

Sin is no longer a concept on my radar screen. Don't have have a use for it.
 
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hollyda

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What does OCD have to do with Christianity?
The only one who gave a sincere crap about Christianity was my grandmother (best woman of all time. Period. No discussion), but even she eventually realized that nobody in our family wanted to go to church on Sundays.

Maybe you should ask some of the Christians on here what it has to do with Christianity, especially when you have unwanted blasphemous thoughts.

My experience is limited to me -- I was merely stating that from what you described as your Christian upbringing compared to others I know, not having it drilled in seems preferable.

Sorry if I offended you.
 
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