Romans 11 and election: Can the non-elect be saved?

swordmaster · Apr 25, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
Israel are elect , they are not all in Christ .

Judas was elected to the office of Apostle he was not in Christ either.

Election in Christ means being chosen for salvation through sanctification of the truth .

Paul is stating that God is the potter , He alone has sole determination of each pot and it's purpose , yes , that does mean God created each person with a view in mind .

Israel was God's chosen people, today, those who are in Christ are God's chosen people. Israel will continue as a special people to God because of His promise to the patriarchs. Judas was just one of the apostles that let his guard down, and so let satan enter him. Jesus told Peter that satan wanted to do the same to him, but Jesus was praying for Peter and Peter reciprocated. There had to be one of the disciples that betrayed Jesus, but I don't believe you will find a passage of scripture that foretells Judas as the one.

Those who are in Christ are God's elect, they are not in Christ because they were predestined to be so, this thought is anit-scriptural. And again, the potter and the clay was a word picture, not to be taken literally that God makes some people for hell and some people for eternal life. This idea is blasphemous to the character and revealed heart of God.

cygnusx1 · May 2, 2011

swordmaster said:
Israel was God's chosen people, today, those .........

God's gifts and callings are without repentance , Israel remains elect , just because some did not believe shall that change Gods mind or love ? God forbid .. Romans 3

what you have got there is the error of 'replacement theology' (any name will do , men change the name the doctrine remains))

Arc · May 3, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
God's gifts and callings are without repentance , Israel remains elect , just because some did not believe shall that change Gods mind or love ? God forbid .. Romans 3

what you have got there is the error of 'replacement theology' (any name will do , men change the name the doctrine remains))

I'm simply amazed at this type of response (you've made it many times).

The quote from Romans 3:3 is speaking about the faithfulness of God. We both agree that God will remain faithful. But what you seem to suggest is that this means no matter what Israel does, the whole nation remains blessed, receiving God's gifts and blessings.

The problem is this is not at all what Paul is saying. Nor has history shown this to be true. Paul is saying that God remains faithful no matter what, but those within Israel who don't remain faithful are judged. Not only is this clearly stated in the law, it's also stated in the context of Romans 3.

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)

To whom is God inflicting wrath? The unrighteous:

Rom 3:6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

If a distinction could not be made, then God could not judge the world. But God does judge, He does inflict wrath on the unrighteous, even within Israel. If your interpretation of Romans 3:3 is correct, then Paul couldn't say this. Paul would instead have to say that the unrighteous will not have God's wrath poured out on them because "their unfaithfulness does not nullify God's faithfulness to Israel". But this is the exact opposite of Paul's point.

This is mentioned many times. Paul makes a distinction within Israel in Romans 9:6 (not all Israel are of Israel).

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Christ is the seed, those who belong to Christ are true Israel and the rest are cut off.

Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."

Only a remnant will be saved. The sentence carried out was the destruction of Israel in 70AD. This is the sentence upon the land of Israel for her sins. But of course the remnant were not destroyed. True Israel will always carry on. Those who follow the Lord Jesus with Gentiles grafted in.

So what swordmaster said:
Israel was God's chosen people, today, those who are in Christ are God's chosen people.

Is true. Your partial quote of this followed by your response almost seems as if you don't believe Christ's followers are the chosen people. So are you saying all Israel is elect, even apart from Christ. So Israel doesn't need Christ? Wow! Why did Jesus bother to waste His time, for the gifts and calling on apostate Israel are without repentance! Jesus is not the way, but one way?

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to seeds," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your seed," who is Christ. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

All God's promises are to those of Israel who are true Israel, those who belong to Israel's King and Lord, Jesus the anointed one.

Act 3:22 Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.'

Is Peter wrong? Was Moses wrong? Was Paul wrong in Romans 9:8, 9:27 & 11:5? Well if the unfaithful still get the promises then yes they are all wrong. Please read Paul carefully. If one has a theology that clearly contradicts many other scriptures then it simply cannot be a correct theology.

cygnusx1 · May 3, 2011

Arc said:
I'm simply amazed at this type of response (you've made it many times).

The quote from Romans 3:3 is speaking about the faithfulness of God. We both agree that God will remain faithful. But what you seem to suggest is that this means no matter what Israel does, the whole nation remains blessed, receiving God's gifts and blessings.

The problem is this is not at all what Paul is saying. Nor has history shown this to be true. Paul is saying that God remains faithful no matter what, but those within Israel who don't remain faithful are judged. Not only is this clearly stated in the law, it's also stated in the context of Romans 3.

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)

To whom is God inflicting wrath? The unrighteous:

Rom 3:6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

If a distinction could not be made, then God could not judge the world. But God does judge, He does inflict wrath on the unrighteous, even within Israel. If your interpretation of Romans 3:3 is correct, then Paul couldn't say this. Paul would instead have to say that the unrighteous will not have God's wrath poured out on them because "their unfaithfulness does not nullify God's faithfulness to Israel". But this is the exact opposite of Paul's point.

This is mentioned many times. Paul makes a distinction within Israel in Romans 9:6 (not all Israel are of Israel).

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Christ is the seed, those who belong to Christ are true Israel and the rest are cut off.

Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."

Only a remnant will be saved. The sentence carried out was the destruction of Israel in 70AD. This is the sentence upon the land of Israel for her sins. But of course the remnant were not destroyed. True Israel will always carry on. Those who follow the Lord Jesus with Gentiles grafted in.

So what swordmaster said:
Israel was God's chosen people, today, those who are in Christ are God's chosen people.

Is true. Your partial quote of this followed by your response almost seems as if you don't believe Christ's followers are the chosen people. So are you saying all Israel is elect, even apart from Christ. So Israel doesn't need Christ? Wow! Why did Jesus bother to waste His time, for the gifts and calling on apostate Israel are without repentance! Jesus is not the way, but one way?

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to seeds," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your seed," who is Christ. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

All God's promises are to those of Israel who are true Israel, those who belong to Israel's King and Lord, Jesus the anointed one.

Act 3:22 Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.'

Is Peter wrong? Was Moses wrong? Was Paul wrong in Romans 9:8, 9:27 & 11:5? Well if the unfaithful still get the promises then yes they are all wrong. Please read Paul carefully. If one has a theology that clearly contradicts many other scriptures then it simply cannot be a correct theology.

I am amazed you continue to deny God doesn't change , just because some received wrath you imagine God dumps his wife , you can select as many texts as you like , Gods calling and gifts remain , you don't seem to be able or willing to think of an election beyond salvation.

the Arminian also thinks Gods love changes , scripture doesn't.

billybtennessee · May 3, 2011

I certainly do not believe any part of replacement theology. Much prophetic scripture concerns Israel, and the region they are now regathering in.

They will be saved through recognition and acceptance of Jesus Christ however. That is also prophesied concerning them.

It is only because of Gods faithfulness, it will not be because of theirs.

Same with us. But yes, the whole purpose as given by scripture and history is that God requires faithfulness and obedience. God is merciful, faithful, and longsuffering. And God is not mocked.

It is amazing how simple concerning God, and also how complicated concerning men. God does not operate like man and satan and his does, using half-truths and loopholes. There are promises, and there are warnings, the wise accept both.

Nothing in Gods word changes, it will stand regardless of futile attempts to usurp, His word will also condemn and judge those who do.

James Chapter 3.

Arc · May 5, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
I am amazed you continue to deny God doesn't change

God doesn't change. My quotations throughout new and old testament make this very point. There are those who are faithful and those who refuse to believe and are cut off from the people. Unless one is a universalist, this is how it goes. Jeremiah 18:9-10 tells us that whenever God makes a promise to build up a nation, it has conditions.

cygnusx1 said:
just because some received wrath you imagine God dumps his wife

The bride is the church (2 Cor 11:2, Rev 21:2&9). It consists of faithful Israel with Gentiles grafted in (Rom 11, Eph 2-3). Your idea that I believe God dumped Israel seems to come from somewhere other than me.

cygnusx1 said:
you can select as many texts as you like , Gods calling and gifts remain , you don't seem to be able or willing to think of an election beyond salvation.

Well that's the difference were having here. Not matter what texts I present, your presuppositions prevail. None of the texts I posted were answered. Just saying something you believe in over and over again doesn't make it so.

cygnusx1 said:
the Arminian also thinks Gods love changes , scripture doesn't.

Interesting. If I accept your view I would have to conclude that scripture is wrong or that it changed. All those times throughout the old and new testament where God promised to destroy those within Israel who were rebellious were just wrong. Should we just throw those texts out? NO. They stand true if you want to face them or not. We can't just ignore those texts that disagree with our theology.

Ortho_Cat · May 5, 2011

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

cygnusx1 · May 5, 2011

Arc said:
God doesn't change. My quotations throughout new and old testament make this very point. There are those who are faithful and those who refuse to believe and are cut off from the people. Unless one is a universalist, this is how it goes. Jeremiah 18:9-10 tells us that whenever God makes a promise to build up a nation, it has conditions.

what has that got to do with Gods unfailing love ?

do you think God loves you with an unfailing love ?

The bride is the church (2 Cor 11:2, Rev 21:2&9). It consists of faithful Israel with Gentiles grafted in (Rom 11, Eph 2-3). Your idea that I believe God dumped Israel seems to come from somewhere other than me.

it comes from replacement theology (a rose by any other name is still a rose) do yourself a favour , go through the OT and see where Israel is called Gods beloved ; His betrothed ; His wife

Isaiah 54

Isa.54

[1] Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
[2] Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
[3] For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
[4] Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
[5] For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
[6] For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
[7] For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
[8] In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
[9] For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
[10] For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
[11] O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
[12] And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
[13] And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
[14] In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
[15] Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
[16] Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
[17] No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

.... then tell me has God replaced her ? or does God have two wives !

Well that's the difference were having here. Not matter what texts I present, your presuppositions prevail. None of the texts I posted were answered. Just saying something you believe in over and over again doesn't make it so.

as do yours , you think a few conditions and a few chastisements is out of sync with Gods unconditional love and electing of a people ........ it isn't.

Interesting. If I accept your view I would have to conclude that scripture is wrong or that it changed.

God doesn't change , Israel was and remains elect , if I follow your view God has dumped the nation and cut her off , the only thing left is "a remnant" which amounts to NOTHING seeing as there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ , thus your view just glosses over Gods love and His predictions , you have Him faithful on condition (Arminianism) and faithful to a only a remnant ....... the remnant has replaced the vine !

All those times throughout the old and new testament where God promised to destroy those within Israel who were rebellious were just wrong.

what has that to do with Gods electing a nation ?

what has that to do with God loving a people ?

what has that to do with Israels future conversion to Christ ?

Should we just throw those texts out? NO.

the question is a red herring.

They stand true if you want to face them or not. We can't just ignore those texts that disagree with our theology.

I ignore nothing ......

swordmaster · May 6, 2011

Arc said:
Interesting. If I accept your view I would have to conclude that scripture is wrong or that it changed. All those times throughout the old and new testament where God promised to destroy those within Israel who were rebellious were just wrong. Should we just throw those texts out? NO. They stand true if you want to face them or not. We can't just ignore those texts that disagree with our theology.

Arc, you hit the nail on the head. He is one that I have. . . bumped into before, that holds to what he was taught whether it is a scripturally interpretated (interpreting scripture with and by scripture) or not. As I have said many times, we need to be Bereans and study the Word for ourselves, testing everything we are taught by others, to see whether or not what they are saying is truth. There are study tools available to us today that they didn't have 100 years ago, and many of the doctrines that came out of the last 1,000 years were wrong to one degree or another because they didn't have the tools we have today.

But some will not do that, because they do not love the truth, they only love their doctrines of men that tell them what they want to hear, rather than having a heart and ear for the truth.

Good luck!

cygnusx1 · May 7, 2011

swordmaster said:
Arc, you hit the nail on the head. He is one that I have. . . bumped into before, that holds to what he was taught whether it is a scripturally interpretated (interpreting scripture with and by scripture) or not. As I have said many times, we need to be Bereans and study the Word for ourselves, testing everything we are taught by others, to see whether or not what they are saying is truth. There are study tools available to us today that they didn't have 100 years ago, and many of the doctrines that came out of the last 1,000 years were wrong to one degree or another because they didn't have the tools we have today.

But some will not do that, because they do not love the truth, they only love their doctrines of men that tell them what they want to hear, rather than having a heart and ear for the truth.

Good luck!

stick to the subject instead of breaking the forum rules . you do know the rules don't you ?

heymikey80 · May 7, 2011

Arc said:
I'm simply amazed at this type of response (you've made it many times).

The quote from Romans 3:3 is speaking about the faithfulness of God. We both agree that God will remain faithful. But what you seem to suggest is that this means no matter what Israel does, the whole nation remains blessed, receiving God's gifts and blessings.

The ultimate result of this is that God is never providing gifts and blessings to Israel. It's pretty obvious that Israel has never done anything that satisfies God's justice or God's covenant -- from the start on through today.

So why would we have ever associated the true and holy God with the God of the Israelites? Because of God's grace. Period. No other reason.

Arc said:
The problem is this is not at all what Paul is saying. Nor has history shown this to be true. Paul is saying that God remains faithful no matter what, but those within Israel who don't remain faithful are judged. Not only is this clearly stated in the law, it's also stated in the context of Romans 3.

And the end result of this is described in Romans 3:9-20. Curtains, all around.

Fortunately, that is not the basis God is using, as Romans 3:21-30 describes. "If we are faithless, he will remain faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Arc said:
To whom is God inflicting wrath? The unrighteous:
Rom 3:6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

If a distinction could not be made, then God could not judge the world. But God does judge, He does inflict wrath on the unrighteous, even within Israel. If your interpretation of Romans 3:3 is correct, then Paul couldn't say this. Paul would instead have to say that the unrighteous will not have God's wrath poured out on them because "their unfaithfulness does not nullify God's faithfulness to Israel". But this is the exact opposite of Paul's point.

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20

Arc said:
So are you saying all Israel is elect, even apart from Christ. So Israel doesn't need Christ? Wow! Why did Jesus bother to waste His time, for the gifts and calling on apostate Israel are without repentance! Jesus is not the way, but one way?

It's pretty obvious Israel needs Christ, so I would warn you to take a good, hard look at the rules on this forum and attempt to recognize what's being said. There isn't anything in CygnusX1's statements that would "seem" to head in this direction.

Arc said:
Is Peter wrong? Was Moses wrong? Was Paul wrong in Romans 9:8, 9:27 & 11:5? Well if the unfaithful still get the promises then yes they are all wrong. Please read Paul carefully. If one has a theology that clearly contradicts many other scriptures then it simply cannot be a correct theology.

I don't know CygnusX1's position on this, but I doubt your representation of his position. Yet no answer has really been provided for Paul's representation of "As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:28-29

"They" are "they" ... aren't "they"? So what's your explanation?

swordmaster · May 7, 2011

heymikey80 said:
Fortunately, that is not the basis God is using, as Romans 3:21-30 describes. "If we are faithless, he will remain faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Actually, that's...

2 Timothy 2:13
If we do not believe, yet He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

And this passage has been twisted by some in the past to mean what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that God will be faithful to us when we are walking in disbelief and disobedience (apisteō = to be disobedient because one has no belief) toward Him. It means that God cannot deny Himself, no matter what we do...we either get on the boat, or we get off the boat, but either way, God will always be faithful to His plan, regardless of what we do or say.

swordmaster · May 7, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
God's gifts and callings are without repentance , Israel remains elect , just because some did not believe shall that change Gods mind or love ? God forbid .. Romans 3...what you have got there is the error of 'replacement theology' (any name will do , men change the name the doctrine remains))

True, but you are generalizing when it suits your purpose and then being pointed when it serves your purpose.

God works through covenants, and even when Israel was God's elect (chosen) they still had to remain within the confines of the covenant, or they were cut off...meaning they were no longer His chosen. So is it today, the elect of God are those in Christ, if they cease to remain in Christ through wanton and blatant disobedience to the covenant obligations, they too will lose out.

This isn't replacement theology as you like to call it, its correct interpretation of the scriptures, reading them through the eyes of understanding covenant language verses interpretations by those who don't understand covenant or covenant language.

swordmaster · May 7, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
what has that got to do with Gods unfailing love ?
do you think God loves you with an unfailing love ?

Click to expand...

What does that have to do with anything? God loves all men, that will never change, yet not all men reap the benefits of that love, so what are you trying to say?

it comes from replacement theology (a rose by any other name is still a rose) do yourself a favour , go through the OT and see where Israel is called Gods beloved ; His betrothed ; His wife

Click to expand...

The only replacement theology I see on this thread is your own, what he said is correct. The church is comprised of faithful Jewish people along with graft-in gentile believers...ONE body, not Israel and the Body of Christ. You don't seem to have a grip on the concept. You are the one presenting a red herring for argument's sake.

.... then tell me has God replaced her ? or does God have two wives !

Click to expand...

Again, you don't have a grip on the concept.

as do yours , you think a few conditions and a few chastisements is out of sync with Gods unconditional love and electing of a people ........ it isn't.

Click to expand...

Again, God deals with people on the basis of His covenant with them. If we remain faithful to the covenant obligations, all is good. If some failed in their duties/obligations of the covenant, then they were cut off and dealt with. this has nothing to do with His love or election. God deals with Israel on two levels, and that seems to confuse people...He deals with National Israel, and then He deals with the individual. God's actions towards both are consistent, He doesn't make up different rules for both.

God doesn't change , Israel was and remains elect , if I follow your view God has dumped the nation and cut her off , the only thing left is "a remnant" which amounts to NOTHING seeing as there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ , thus your view just glosses over Gods love and His predictions , you have Him faithful on condition (Arminianism) and faithful to a only a remnant ....... the remnant has replaced the vine !

Click to expand...

Newsflash...God only remains faithful to those who meet the conditions of His covenant, for God only deals with man based upon His covenant agreements. So he is right, and you are wrong...and that isn't Arminianism, that is correct interpretation of scripture through covenant understanding, which you don't seem to have. God was faithful to national Israel out of His love and covenant with Abraham, and He was also faithful to deal out punishments upon those individuals who rebelled against Him (read Exodus and Leviticus again, they are chalk full of such examples).

I ignore nothing ......

Click to expand...

Actually, you do, and that has been pointed out to you many times. We cannot cherry-pick verses that seem to back our opinions, and then leave out the ones that do not, which you do. We need to take the whole Word of God into consideration on any given subject and let God shape our interpretation of scripture, rather than trying to fit God's Word into our own little molds.

Arc · May 8, 2011

heymikey80 said:
The ultimate result of this is that God is never providing gifts and blessings to Israel. It's pretty obvious that Israel has never done anything that satisfies God's justice or God's covenant -- from the start on through today.

So why would we have ever associated the true and holy God with the God of the Israelites? Because of God's grace. Period. No other reason.

And the end result of this is described in Romans 3:9-20. Curtains, all around.

Fortunately, that is not the basis God is using, as Romans 3:21-30 describes. "If we are faithless, he will remain faithful: he cannot deny himself."

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20

I think you are misunderstanding the point I was trying to make. All those texts point to the failure of man (in sin) and that by the works of the law no one will be justified. I agree. The basis I gave was faith, not works of the law, nor being sinless. This is why we have a remnant running throughout the OT. This is why Paul says:

Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”

The great love shown by God, the faithfulness expressed in Romans 3:3 is shown in this, that God kept Israel alive through her faithful remnant. If the Lord had not been faithful and done this they would have become extinct like Sodom & Gomorrah.

Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Israel, as you point out in Romans 3, aren't going to get there by the law. But there were always those who were faithful:

Romans 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Note that God's answer was not: They are all elect, their lack of faith does not nullify my faithfulness.

Instead the answer is:
I have reserved for myself seven thousand

And why 7000?

they have not bowed the knee to Baal

7000 was a remnant at that time, not the whole nation of Israel. But this is not grace apart from faith and no, it's surely not of works. It's the grace of God through faith. (see Hebrews 11. These people were not perfect but they did have faith)

Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another,
And the LORD listened and heard them;
So a book of remembrance was written before Him
For those who fear the LORD
And who meditate on His name.

heymikey80 said:
It's pretty obvious Israel needs Christ, so I would warn you to take a good, hard look at the rules on this forum and attempt to recognize what's being said. There isn't anything in CygnusX1's statements that would "seem" to head in this direction.

I think it's obvious too that Israel needs Christ. But realize that once Israel believes Jesus as Messiah they become members of Christ body, the church. This is something CygnusX1 seems to be denying.

It should be noted (and I did in fact mention previously) that a universalist position could be appealed to as "another way". They hold to the idea that with our without Jesus now, all will eventually be saved.

Cygnusx1 did say:

cygnusx1 said:
Israel's future is a saved one .

and

cygnusx1 said:
can a elect Israelite be saved ? yes of course the nation is ELECT , the promise is "to you and to your children" .... not simply "some of you" !

I still think the question: So are you (cygnusx1) saying all Israel is elect, even apart from Christ. And if so then Israel doesn't need Christ?

The reason for this question is this. If one supposes (as John Hagee seems to believe) that Israel doesn't need to believe Christ to be saved, then why does faith in Jesus matter?

There are two sides people have fallen on in this area. If one falls on the side that requires faith in Christ to be saved then, weather you like it or not, you admit one must be a member of Christ's body, the church.

Ephesians 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body

Christ is head over everything for the church, His body. To deny true Israel is the church (it started all Jewish and later added Gentiles) is to deny they are in the body of Christ. To be elect outside of the church is to be elect outside of Christ, the savior.

This is a theologically relevant question, since there are indeed living Christians who hold this view.

Several times I've been told by CygnusX1 my position is based on the fact that I'm "Arminian". Yet the reformers were originally amillennial, so this charge is clearly unfounded, yet this is ok?

heymikey80 said:
I don't know CygnusX1's position on this, but I doubt your representation of his position.

I've taken the time to answer questions about the texts of Romans 3:3 & Romans 11:28. I feel the texts I pointed out (from Moses, Peter & Paul) make a strong case and they have yet to be delt with by CygnusX1.

Yet CygnusX1 has repeatedly questioned me as to Israel being completely cut off or replaced or divorced. It is clear that CygnusX1 does not understand my position since I have repeatedly stated that God has not removed them all, or cut them all off. But the assertions continue.

heymikey80 said:
Yet no answer has really been provided for Paul's representation of "As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Rom 11:28-29

"They" are "they" ... aren't "they"? So what's your explanation?

I've already give my explanation to this point on page one, post #8.

cygnusx1 · May 8, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
What does that have to do with anything? God loves all men, that will never change, yet not all men reap the benefits of that love, so what are you trying to say?

The only replacement theology I see on this thread is your own, what he said is correct. The church is comprised of faithful Jewish people along with graft-in gentile believers...ONE body, not Israel and the Body of Christ. You don't seem to have a grip on the concept. You are the one presenting a red herring for argument's sake.

Again, you don't have a grip on the concept.

Again, God deals with people on the basis of His covenant with them. If we remain faithful to the covenant obligations, all is good. If some failed in their duties/obligations of the covenant, then they were cut off and dealt with. this has nothing to do with His love or election. God deals with Israel on two levels, and that seems to confuse people...He deals with National Israel, and then He deals with the individual. God's actions towards both are consistent, He doesn't make up different rules for both.

Newsflash...God only remains faithful to those who meet the conditions of His covenant, for God only deals with man based upon His covenant agreements. So he is right, and you are wrong...and that isn't Arminianism, that is correct interpretation of scripture through covenant understanding, which you don't seem to have. God was faithful to national Israel out of His love and covenant with Abraham, and He was also faithful to deal out punishments upon those individuals who rebelled against Him (read Exodus and Leviticus again, they are chalk full of such examples).

Actually, you do, and that has been pointed out to you many times. We cannot cherry-pick verses that seem to back our opinions, and then leave out the ones that do not, which you do. We need to take the whole Word of God into consideration on any given subject and let God shape our interpretation of scripture, rather than trying to fit God's Word into our own little molds.

I see you avoid all my points and its clear why. You CANNOT or will not get beyond making digs instead of looking at what i posted .

cygnusx1 · May 8, 2011

swordmaster said:
True, .

I'll sette for that /

cygnusx1 · May 8, 2011

quote=Arc;57423963]I think you are misunderstanding the point I was trying to make. All those texts point to the failure of man (in sin) and that by the works of the law no one will be justified. I agree. The basis I gave was faith, not works of the law, nor being sinless. This is why we have a remnant running throughout the OT. This is why Paul says:

Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”

The great love shown by God, the faithfulness expressed in Romans 3:3 is shown in this, that God kept Israel alive through her faithful remnant. If the Lord had not been faithful and done this they would have become extinct like Sodom & Gomorrah.

sure , a temporary measure until the full number of the Gentiles comes in then what .... "all Israel shall be saved" !

Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Israel, as you point out in Romans 3, aren't going to get there by the law. But there were always those who were faithful:

which is not the point , Gods attitude is unchanging towards the nation.even though some are cut off the nation is not forsaken.

Romans 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

Note that God's answer was not: They are all elect, their lack of faith does not nullify my faithfulness.

Instead the answer is:
I have reserved for myself seven thousand

And why 7000?

they have not bowed the knee to Baal

7000 was a remnant at that time, not the whole nation of Israel. But this is not grace apart from faith and no, it's surely not of works. It's the grace of God through faith. (see Hebrews 11. These people were not perfect but they did have faith)

the remnant are not selected because they had faith but because of Gods unfailing love to Israel and His promises , faith is merely instrumental , it is grace that is the real cause of salvation here and everywhere.

Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another,
And the LORD listened and heard them;
So a book of remembrance was written before Him
For those who fear the LORD
And who meditate on His name.

I think it's obvious too that Israel needs Christ. But realize that once Israel believes Jesus as Messiah they become members of Christ body, the church. This is something CygnusX1 seems to be denying.

of course this is not the case , how many times have i said Israel will be converted to Christ , there is no salvation outside of Christ .

It should be noted (and I did in fact mention previously) that a universalist position could be appealed to as "another way". They hold to the idea that with our without Jesus now, all will eventually be saved.

universalism is false , Israel being elected and remaining elect is true.

Cygnusx1 did say:
Originally Posted by cygnusx1
Israel's future is a saved one .

scripture tells us "all Israel shall be saved" the context is racial/national

and

Originally Posted by cygnusx1
can a elect Israelite be saved ? yes of course the nation is ELECT , the promise is "to you and to your children" .... not simply "some of you" !

again scripture tells us it is so .

The Gospel offer is made to Jews and their offspring , not just "the elect in Christ" (Hyper-C)

why you would quote me showing Israels part in Gods plan of salvation in Christ is baffling , as though i am wrong... its not that difficult to follow .

I still think the question: So are you (cygnusx1) saying all Israel is elect, even apart from Christ. And if so then Israel doesn't need Christ?

there is more than one election , Israel is one .

The reason for this question is this. If one supposes (as John Hagee seems to believe) that Israel doesn't need to believe Christ to be saved, then why does faith in Jesus matter?

"seems to believe" what evidence is there for that ? it's probably your misunderstanding , if not lets see the quotes.

There are two sides people have fallen on in this area. If one falls on the side that requires faith in Christ to be saved then, weather you like it or not, you admit one must be a member of Christ's body, the church.

Ephesians 1:22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body

Christ is head over everything for the church, His body. To deny true Israel is the church (it started all Jewish and later added Gentiles) is to deny they are in the body of Christ. To be elect outside of the church is to be elect outside of Christ, the savior.

again there is more than one election , national election , and personal election , if you were right then "as regards the Gospel they are enemies but as regarding the Fathers they are beloved " would mean the elect (that is who Paul has in mind , see next verse) would be Christians who are enemies of the Gospel , NO , its the nation Paul has in view.

This is a theologically relevant question, since there are indeed living Christians who hold this view.

Several times I've been told by CygnusX1 my position is based on the fact that I'm "Arminian". Yet the reformers were originally amillennial, so this charge is clearly unfounded, yet this is ok?

making salvation turn on mans will is Arminian , you don't seem to understand the reason anyone is saved , much less how Israel will yet be saved .... ie , faith and repentance are gifts of grace.

I've taken the time to answer questions about the texts of Romans 3:3 & Romans 11:28. I feel the texts I pointed out (from Moses, Peter & Paul) make a strong case and they have yet to be delt with by CygnusX1.

dealt with ? I use them often .

Yet CygnusX1 has repeatedly questioned me as to Israel being completely cut off or replaced or divorced. It is clear that CygnusX1 does not understand my position since I have repeatedly stated that God has not removed them all, or cut them all off. But the assertions continue.

if God has not cut off , replaced or divorced his wife , then you must now be agreeing with me that God still loves the nation , Israel has a bright future ! about time .

btw , i never once said or even implied salvation for every member of Israel , God doesn't have to save them all in order to save the nation ; all Israel shall be saved is NOT every Jew neither is it Jews and Gentile Christians (replacement theology) it is national conversion ; God will banish ungodliness from "Jacob" not "the church" .

Israel remains elect inspite of hardening , inspite of the time of the Gentiles , inspite of being punished , inspite of being several times banished from the holy land , God remains her faithful loving husband ! (read Hosea)

cygnusx1 · May 8, 2011

Arc said:
I'm simply amazed at this type of response (you've made it many times).

The quote from Romans 3:3 is speaking about the faithfulness of God. We both agree that God will remain faithful. But what you seem to suggest is that this means no matter what Israel does, the whole nation remains blessed, receiving God's gifts and blessings.

Two well recognised facts that defy earthly explanation;

1. The Jews are and have been hated by many for centuries .

2. The Jews are and have always been known for being very wealthy .

In order to aquire great wealth one needs customers , customers who "hate your guts" is not usually a winning formula for getting rich !

The only explanation for Israels exsistence and wealth to this very day is Gods Love and commitment , not her "appeal" to the nations .

Judging by how much hatred has been shown to the Jews over many years , she should be dead , finished , certainly not wealthy . a real enigma for the earthly minded .

heymikey80 · May 8, 2011

swordmaster said:
Actually, that's...

2 Timothy 2:13
If we do not believe, yet He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

And this passage has been twisted by some in the past to mean what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean that God will be faithful to us when we are walking in disbelief and disobedience (apisteō = to be disobedient because one has no belief) toward Him. It means that God cannot deny Himself, no matter what we do...we either get on the boat, or we get off the boat, but either way, God will always be faithful to His plan, regardless of what we do or say.

Actually it does mean God will remain faithful to us when we are faithless to Him. The meaning of a verse can't contradict what it says, on the same level it says it.

Romans 11 and election: Can the non-elect be saved?

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