We Could Be Wrong About It All

Barraco

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Here is a post I made in another thread that I think is worth discussing:

"I think it is wiser to let go of the 42 months thing. I believe that it is a symbolic time that looks 'back' at when Antiochus Epiphanes oppressed the Jews for their faith. However, paired with Rev 11:2, it would be among the Gentiles (times of the Gentiles, Luke 21:24).

Anyway, the global financial crisis, paired up with our insatiable craving for more wealth and possessions drives a point home that we are in the era of Laodicea (etymology meaning 'the people rule', same as democracy), in which Christ said, "As many as I love, I rebuke. Therefore, be zealous and repent." I believe that the trumpets will be our rebuke, while they weaken the nations and announce the glorious and triumphant return of Jesus.

I believe that we have far less time than we think we do. I think that we should stop looking for a temple to be built, an antichrist to start a treaty, and a seven year tribulation. Those ideas very well could be scripture being quoted to fit a preconception that the Bible doesn't strongly support.
"

Could we have it all wrong? I think mainstream Christian eschatologists do have it wrong. Now, I often see many eschatologists looking at Bible prophecy in the guidelines of those doctrines, meaning that people read things with preconceptions about what is possible and isn't possible. I think that, since we live in a successful era of science, we should use the scientific method to formulate hypothesis about prophecy without viewing them in light of preconceptions. We could get far more accurate interpretations, IMO.
 

NightHawkeye

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I believe that we have far less time than we think we do. I think that we should stop looking for a temple to be built, an antichrist to start a treaty, and a seven year tribulation. Those ideas very well could be scripture being quoted to fit a preconception that the Bible doesn't strongly support. "

Could we have it all wrong? I think mainstream Christian eschatologists do have it wrong. Now, I often see many eschatologists looking at Bible prophecy in the guidelines of those doctrines, meaning that people read things with preconceptions about what is possible and isn't possible. I think that, since we live in a successful era of science, we should use the scientific method to formulate hypothesis about prophecy without viewing them in light of preconceptions. We could get far more accurate interpretations, IMO.
Some of us agree with you, Barraco.
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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I think the idea that we--all of us--could be wrong or have it all wrong is an important one. In order to keep us humble enough to accept that we finite, sinful and often stubborn little creatures that we are fallible.

One of the big reasons I have a tendency to say provocative things on this particular board, or other times attempt to be outright silly is in part to attempt to offer a counter-balance to some of the stuff being written here.

In all seriousness I think eschatology is a wonderful field of theological discussion and study, I just consider it unfortunate that it tends to become overwhelmingly bogged down by people either not being aware of perhaps what theologians have said over the last two thousand years or aware but not caring. The result is a host of speculation, conjecture and innovative statements often predicated not by rigorous investigation of the Christian faith, but instead wholly novel interpretations.

I don't believe in the Rapture. I do not believe that Christ is removing the Church through a great disappearing act. I used to, but I simply am unable to simultaneously take the Bible seriously, or take Christian theology seriously, and at the same time take this notion that ultimately God is removing His people from planet earth.

That immediately is going to mean that whether someone like Harold Camping and his followers making statements like the Rapture is going to happen on the 21st of next month, or statements such as the Rapture is going to happen in spring or summer or fall or correlate with this or that Jewish festival to be pure idle fancy that has at its very first a theological/eschatological idea that is itself ultimately imaginitive.

I could be wrong. It's entirely possible that Christians have always been wrong about this, and that for some reason John Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Dwight L. Moody, Hal Lindsay and a host of people between them and since actually got things right; that somehow they managed to see something in Scripture that all the Fathers of the Church, the theologians, Scholastics, Reformers--everyone--got wrong before. That is possible.

But even though I could be wrong, and all the ancient Christians and the leaders of the Reformation and Protestant and Catholic theologians of the post-Reformation period as well as Orthodox theologians and scholars being wrong about this; I'm not exactly convinced that I should ignore the swath of historic, orthodox, traditional Christian teaching on the basis that it might be wrong. After all, I could be wrong about Jesus too, maybe Jesus was not the Christ or maybe Jesus never did exist; perhaps Buddhists have things figured out, maybe Judaism is right, maybe I ought to be a Taoist or a Neo-Platonist or an atheist. However I'm a Christian, I could be wholly mistaken and perhaps I won't find out until I die or if death is it I won't ever find anything out. I don't know; but I still have confidence in Christ, just as I have confidence that the Christian Church has gotten most things right theologically over the past two thousand years.

And if you have confidence that Dispensationalism is right, or Adventism, or Premillennial Post-Tribulationism or whateverhaveyou, then more power to you.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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If one feels like the end times talk is wrong, why not look into the Puritan explanation regarding to the end times. Just about everything they explained is backed up by other Scriptures. In other words, they cross reference the end times with the Old Testament. That leave all future events out. Big Difference ! Maybe one can try the Second Coming happened around 70 AD.
 
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HosannaHM

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Since the end is coming "like a theif in the night", why waste time to predict the end when Christ is coming back? We should feel obligated to plant more seeds and let God worry about the End of times.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:19-20
 
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Parables

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Since the end is coming "like a theif in the night", why waste time to predict the end when Christ is coming back? We should feel obligated to plant more seeds and let God worry about the End of times.

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:19-20


1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the elect.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


If you don't watch: Jesus will come as a thief to you and you will not know what hour He comes.

If you do watch: Jesus will not come as a thief to you and you will know what hour He comes.
 
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Barraco

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I think the idea that we--all of us--could be wrong or have it all wrong is an important one. In order to keep us humble enough to accept that we finite, sinful and often stubborn little creatures that we are fallible.

One of the big reasons I have a tendency to say provocative things on this particular board, or other times attempt to be outright silly is in part to attempt to offer a counter-balance to some of the stuff being written here.

In all seriousness I think eschatology is a wonderful field of theological discussion and study, I just consider it unfortunate that it tends to become overwhelmingly bogged down by people either not being aware of perhaps what theologians have said over the last two thousand years or aware but not caring. The result is a host of speculation, conjecture and innovative statements often predicated not by rigorous investigation of the Christian faith, but instead wholly novel interpretations.

I don't believe in the Rapture. I do not believe that Christ is removing the Church through a great disappearing act. I used to, but I simply am unable to simultaneously take the Bible seriously, or take Christian theology seriously, and at the same time take this notion that ultimately God is removing His people from planet earth.

That immediately is going to mean that whether someone like Harold Camping and his followers making statements like the Rapture is going to happen on the 21st of next month, or statements such as the Rapture is going to happen in spring or summer or fall or correlate with this or that Jewish festival to be pure idle fancy that has at its very first a theological/eschatological idea that is itself ultimately imaginitive.

I could be wrong. It's entirely possible that Christians have always been wrong about this, and that for some reason John Darby, Cyrus Scofield, Dwight L. Moody, Hal Lindsay and a host of people between them and since actually got things right; that somehow they managed to see something in Scripture that all the Fathers of the Church, the theologians, Scholastics, Reformers--everyone--got wrong before. That is possible.

But even though I could be wrong, and all the ancient Christians and the leaders of the Reformation and Protestant and Catholic theologians of the post-Reformation period as well as Orthodox theologians and scholars being wrong about this; I'm not exactly convinced that I should ignore the swath of historic, orthodox, traditional Christian teaching on the basis that it might be wrong. After all, I could be wrong about Jesus too, maybe Jesus was not the Christ or maybe Jesus never did exist; perhaps Buddhists have things figured out, maybe Judaism is right, maybe I ought to be a Taoist or a Neo-Platonist or an atheist. However I'm a Christian, I could be wholly mistaken and perhaps I won't find out until I die or if death is it I won't ever find anything out. I don't know; but I still have confidence in Christ, just as I have confidence that the Christian Church has gotten most things right theologically over the past two thousand years.

And if you have confidence that Dispensationalism is right, or Adventism, or Premillennial Post-Tribulationism or whateverhaveyou, then more power to you.

-CryptoLutheran

HI Crypto,

Amazing response! I feel the same way; that I could be wrong. I constantly have to criticize my own interpretations to ensure that I'm not stating an agenda that wasn't implied by the writing. I have also tried on many of the popular eschatological views and found that there is a lot of stretching and agenda-making to support those claims. They also fit a certain doctrine which uses one Scripture that is either taken out of context to it's original use or disagrees with other Scriptures.

Often the historical context of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is often ignored or assumed and the contexts of the quotes from the old testament are often neglected as well.

I would like to hear some of your interpretations, seeing that you have a humble approach to eschatology.
 
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HosannaHM

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1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the elect.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


If you don't watch: Jesus will come as a thief to you and you will not know what hour He comes.

If you do watch: Jesus will not come as a thief to you and you will know what hour He comes.

The statement wasn't concerning those with/without salvation. Even if we are saved, He is still coming in that manner as it says in verse 2. Verse 4 doesn't mean it won't be unexpected just that it won't be as a thief, but as a savior to the elect.

"Watch" in the revelation verse is referring to preparing our hearts for the end, NOT looking for signs. See below how it translates in other versions. Would God rather you spread the Gospel, or study signs of end times?

NIV:Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

"Wake up" from being dead to sin

ESV:Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you

Theres wake up again and finally NLT

Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don't wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.
 
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Parables

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1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the elect.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


If you don't watch: Jesus will come as a thief to you and you will not know what hour He comes.

If you do watch: Jesus will not come as a thief to you and you will know what hour He comes.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5

Verse 4: But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Brethren: The elect.
"...that day..." is in the same context to verse 2, "...the day of the Lord".

The elect are clearly not going to be taken by surprise as a thief comes in the night. However, those who are not will be take by surprise as Christ comes as a thief in the night for them.




 
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Parables

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Certainly all end times speculations are wrong. The speculations don't do anything to secure Christians in the faith, in fact they frequently undermine the faith, and we see from this that the speculations are wrong.

Surely you are wrong, considering the majority of the Bible consists of eschatology. Correct me if you're wrong, but it seems as if you're saying we shouldn't bother reading end time prophecy. How do you know that these prophecies do not secure Christians in their faith? That is an assumption.

If you're I'm mistaken, please explain to me what you mean. Thanks.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I agree with Crypto and Kaitlin.

I could be wrong about my eschatology, I'm entirely ok with admitting it too. I rely on the Lord to guide me through his word, and the historic faith and traditions of the church, and thus I've been led to my amillennial belief.

The church is called to community, within that community one of the things we're held accountable for is our theology. Based on personal experience, unplugging from the community one eventually believes that they've been given all this esoteric knowledge and it leads to some very strange beliefs. Before you know it you're plastering billboards with 5.21.2011.
 
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Kaitlin08

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Surely you are wrong, considering the majority of the Bible consists of eschatology. Correct me if you're wrong, but it seems as if you're saying we shouldn't bother reading end time prophecy. How do you know that these prophecies do not secure Christians in their faith? That is an assumption.

If you're I'm mistaken, please explain to me what you mean. Thanks.

Hi :wave:

I know that the prophecies don't secure Christians in the faith because the prophecies make people terribly anxious, which is the opposite of what God wants for us, a state of mind that shows we have already more than conquered. By failing to bring about this state of mind, the prophecies don't even do what they presumably are meant to do, which is spur people on to a life change; if there's any other reason they exist, I don't understand what it is, unless the idea is to give people comfort about the future by telling it beforehand. This however is pagan, not Christian, and when used to tell the future, the prophecies actually lead people away from Christianity because they didn't come to pass.
 
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NightHawkeye

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Certainly all end times speculations are wrong. The speculations don't do anything to secure Christians in the faith, in fact they frequently undermine the faith, and we see from this that the speculations are wrong.
Consider that God wants his work discussed, Kaitlin. Each one of us learns but one thing at a time and builds on that. All of it requires testing. Much must be subsequently thrown away. That's just the way things are. What better way than by discussion.

The beauty of discussion here is that it offers you, personally, an opportunity to facilitate the journey of others, as well as furthering your own understanding. Feel better now?


.
 
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BRISH

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I came on here to specifically post something requesting opinions on Mr. Camping and current discussion on end time prophecies. This thread pretty much confirmed an answer for me though. I agree with different parts to almost every repsonse on here.

For me it all comes to the fact that I can not grasp the ideal that God, who did soo much for us to make having salvation and grace soo much easier, would put parts of His word in very complicated codes. I just can't wrap my mind around the thought that God would hide anything from us whether it's straight from him or mans best attempts at interpretation of his dreams/visions. My final thoughts on it are that maybe we couldn't handle the truth. (Oh please don't quote that military movie :p

In other parts of the bible, what we could not handle he did not put on us nor show us. Maybe that's the case here as well.

Maybe all we truly have is what's exactly infront of us, which is just enough to alarm and motivate. Just an urging. Maybe we have just enough to get an idea of what's to come and when.... and that's all we will understand for now. Every woman's labor pains and delivery are different. All that matters is that you are prepared for the delivery. The rest just has to happen. I don't care to know the exact minute when she dilates from a 4 to 5. I just want make sure she keeps progressing and that we are prepared.

I originally wanted specific opinions and points, but I'm good now I think :) The only real sure thing is that I feel something. I've been feeling it this year. I wont say I agree with May 21, 2011. It almost feels wrong to do so. I will say that the Holy Spirit is soo heavy, and ...quickening. You can literally feel Him in yourself and through others all over this world. It's a connection I can't deny and an urgency I wont deny. That much I will say. There are soo many across this planet ministering to the lost in foreign obscure lands. My heart is heavy right now though for those of my blood just a few minutes away. You know?......We need to feel anguished .......so we'll get on our knees and truly cry out for those still unbelieving......and soon.


God Bless
 
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Manasseh_

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So on May 22nd, can I have your car?

-CryptoLutheran

you most certainly cannot have their car, these date setters are gonna need their cars to go and look for new jobs since they will have quit their former jobs waiting for trumpets to sound on May 21st
 
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Manasseh_

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Certainly all end times speculations are wrong. The speculations don't do anything to secure Christians in the faith, in fact they frequently undermine the faith, and we see from this that the speculations are wrong.

indeed, including your pretrib speculations also
 
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