The Eye of Zeus

Ar Cosc said:

And your logic is deeply flawed. Why would the Phobos and Deimos of mythology be the same as the Phobos and Deimos orbiting Mars, and yet the people in Swift's works of fiction, and the surface features of the moons be different? You're applying inconsistent logic, if what you're using can be called logic at all.

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Two = two.

Deimos and Phobos.

Where in the Iliad is it said that Deimos and Phobos are physical satellites of Mars, which is a planet?

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I already provided book and line number.

The planet was named after the god, the planet is not the god.

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In the real world, the planet existed, was named, deified, and worshipped before Latin existed as a language.

Tartarus in Greek mythology lies below the underworld. It couldn't be less outer space.

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Do you claim outerspace is not under the world? Then what is?

Even if this is true, and given your history of quote mining, I have my doubts, it is no evidence that the planets had god-like powers.

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The planets faught a battle in outerspace -- theomachy -- when they deviated from their orbits and when other catastrophic events occured in heaven.

Any evidence of this, apart from the fact that the men who discovered the moons in 1877 named them after characters from mythology?

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The solar system was not discovered in 1877.

Incidentally, when Uranus was first discovered, it was actually named after King George III. Do you think the planet was literally King George III?

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Uranus was named by the Greeks.

No it doesn't. Jonathan Swift invented two moons of Mars for a fictional story, a story which also includes Lilliput, and Brondingnag.

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Jonathan Swift didn't invent the two moons of Mars. They are real.

It is a coincidence that there happen to be two actual moons of Mars.

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So you claim. Astrolatry: look it up.

I know you belive the darndest things, but, and let me stress this, not everybody thinks the same way you do.

What has that quote got to do with anything? The name for Pluto was chosen by an 11 year old girl. What connection did she have with the ancient Greeks and their spaceships and nuclear weapons? How would she have known that Pluto was the literal god of the underworld? Also, underworld. What would the god of the underworld be doing so far away from the underworld's location, underground on earth?

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Pluto is the Roman name for the planet Hades.

Yes. Are you denying the existence of Hesiod?

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Quote please.

Nostromo said:

Could somebody summarise the point of this thread, I can't for the life of me work it out.

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That would require some reading on your part: http://www.christianforums.com/t7554036/#post57307989

Delphiki said:

The OP is saying the ancient Greek gods were named after all the planets and moons we know about in the solar system today and the red spot on Jupiter is Zeus's eye

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That is mostly correct.

However, it is not the ancient Greeks only that practiced astrolatry but every civilization in recorded world history that practiced astrolatry.

despite the OP allegedly being a Christian...

...I think

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"And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided under the whole heaven." -- Deuteronomy 4:19

"And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth." -- Jeremiah 8:2

"God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." -- Psalm 82:1

"For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised; he is to be feared above all gods." -- Psalm 96:4

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we in him." -- 1 Corinthians 8:5-6

ReverendDG said:

nothing in those quotes are the greek creation myth

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This makes no sense whatsoever.

I just quoted you the creation myths as given by the ancient Greeks themselves, namely Anaxagoras, Plato, and Aristotle.

what i linked was, your refusal to admit it is telling.

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You didn't quote any Greek. You linked to a 20th century American website with no citations.

i linked the myth

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You linked a 20th century American website with no citations. I gave direct quotes from Anaxagoras, Plato, and Aristotle.

ReverendDG said:

you said wikipedia was an unreliable source

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No I didn't. I say it IS an unreliable source (present tense not past tense)...

funny too is the only stuff i find saying that the greeks had telescopes is the garbage you spew on the internet.

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"... sight is made precise by the compass, rule, and telescope." -- Iamblichus, philosopher, Life of Pythagoras, 3rd century

"[Roger Bacon] did perfectly understand all kinds of optic glasses, and knew likewise the method of combining them so as to compose some such instrument as our telescope." -- William Molyneux, natural philosopher, Dioptrica Nova, 1692

"... strange as it may seem to us ... the Babylonians possessed optical instruments of the nature of telescopes, since it is impossible, even in the clear and vapor-less sky of Chaldaea, to discern the faint moons of that distant planet [Saturn] without lenses. A lens, it must be remembered, with a fair magnifying power, has been discovered amongst the Mesopotamian ruins." --George Rawlinson, historian, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Eastern World, Volume 4: Babylon, 1862-67

"... to the ancients belong the honor of the invention of the telescope.'" -- Helena P. Blavatsky, theosophist, Isis Unveiled, 1877

"The credit of the discovery of the telescope has been a fruitful subject of discussion. Thus, because Democritus announced that the Milky Way is composed of vast multitudes of stars, it has been maintained that he could only have been led to form such an opinion from actual examination of the heavens with a telescope. Other passages from the Greek and Latin authors have similarly been cited to prove that the telescope was known to the ancients." -- Encyclopaedia Britannica 1888, 1893, & 1911

"The Chaldeans must have understood the manufacture of the telescope, for [Austen H.] Layard reported the discovery of a lens of power in the ruins of Babylon. Nero the emperor of Rome had optical glasses from the east." -- Drusilla D. Houston, historian, Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cu[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]e Empire, Chapter XIII: The Civilization of Babylonia, 1926

"Galileo always insisted that the ancients had telescopes." -- Ivan Van Sertima, historian, Blacks In Science: Ancient and Modern, The Lost Sciences of Africa: An Overview, 1983

"It is a short and simple step to place one lens in front of another to make a basic telescope, and the chances are it could have happened and many times. Galileo himself noted that the 'ancients' were aware of telescopes. The question is just how good these telescopes were and how much knowledge the astronomer/priests of these early civilizations were able to obtain from them. Yet Brecher and Sagan give no consideration to this at all! Their narrow vision cannot alter the facts, but their writings do cast light on the root of their problem...." -- Hunter H. Adams III, archaeoastronomer, African Observers of the Universe: The Sirius Question, 1983

"A recent find in the Idaean Cave in Crete of two rock crystal lenses of unusually good optical quality led to this investigation of other lenses from antiquity. The evidence indicates that the use of lenses was widespread throughout the Middle East and the Mediterranean basin over several millennia. The quality of some of these lenses was sufficient to permit their use as magnifying glasses. The use of lenses as burning glasses in Classical Greece is noted, as is the need for magnifying lenses to authenticate seal impressions. The probability that magnifying lenses were used by gem carvers and seal engravers is discussed. The fine detail of Roman gold-glass portrait medallions and the discovery of a lens in the house of an engraver in Pompeii and another in the house of an artist in Tanis are presented as evidence for the use of the lenses for magnifying purposes. Methods of producing optical quality lenses by simple procedures are also presented." -- Sines, G., and Sakellarakis, Y.A., archaeologists, Lenses in Antiquity, American Journal of Archaeology, Volume 91, Number 2, Pages 191-196, Apr 1987

"If one Italian scientist is correct then the telescope was not invented sometime in the 16th century by Dutch spectacle makers, but by ancient Assyrian astronomers nearly three thousand years earlier." -- World's Oldest Telescope?, BBC, Jul 1999

"I call it consensus blindness. People agree not to see what they are convinced cannot exist. 'Everyone knows' that there was no optical technology in antiquity, so consequently when you come across it, staring you in the face, you go blind. End of conflict." -- Robert G. K. Temple, author, Forbidden Technology, 2009

"The ancients apparently used the telescope long before Pythagoras's time." -- Larry B. Radka, historian, Telescopes and the Ancients, 2010

Read it and weep.

Snow Phoenix said:

Your loss.

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Thank God.

(Is there ANY wiki you would consider 'reliable'?)

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No. I only consider original sources to be reliable.

30 seconds on Google reveals that it's a common mistranslation of a word that means "surveying instrument" in ancient Greek. Calling it a telescope is an extrapolation on the translators part, using modern knowledge.

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FYI a surveying instrument is a telescope: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s148930.htm

Well we now know that it was used in this way because I found over 450 ancient lenses by the time I was through, and I'm still not through. These lenses were used for magnification and we know that that was going on at least by 3300BC. That's a long time ago. And they were used for starting fires by focusing the rays of the sun. They were also used for medical purposes. That is focusing the rays of the sun to cauterise wounds, and they were used for telescopes, rudimentary telescopes. Not only used for studying the moon and the stars, but for surveying.

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Mistranslate this:

"[Roger Bacon] did perfectly understand all kinds of optic glasses, and knew likewise the method of combining them so as to compose some such instrument as our telescope." -- William Molyneux, natural philosopher, Dioptrica Nova, 1692

"... strange as it may seem to us ... the Babylonians possessed optical instruments of the nature of telescopes, since it is impossible, even in the clear and vapor-less sky of Chaldaea, to discern the faint moons of that distant planet [Saturn] without lenses. A lens, it must be remembered, with a fair magnifying power, has been discovered amongst the Mesopotamian ruins." --George Rawlinson, historian, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Eastern World, Volume 4: Babylon, 1862-67

"... to the ancients belong the honor of the invention of the telescope.'" -- Helena P. Blavatsky, theosophist, Isis Unveiled, 1877

"The credit of the discovery of the telescope has been a fruitful subject of discussion. Thus, because Democritus announced that the Milky Way is composed of vast multitudes of stars, it has been maintained that he could only have been led to form such an opinion from actual examination of the heavens with a telescope. Other passages from the Greek and Latin authors have similarly been cited to prove that the telescope was known to the ancients." -- Encyclopaedia Britannica 1888, 1893, & 1911

"The Chaldeans must have understood the manufacture of the telescope, for [Austen H.] Layard reported the discovery of a lens of power in the ruins of Babylon. Nero the emperor of Rome had optical glasses from the east." -- Drusilla D. Houston, historian, Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cu[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]e Empire, Chapter XIII: The Civilization of Babylonia, 1926

"Galileo always insisted that the ancients had telescopes." -- Ivan Van Sertima, historian, Blacks In Science: Ancient and Modern, The Lost Sciences of Africa: An Overview, 1983

"It is a short and simple step to place one lens in front of another to make a basic telescope, and the chances are it could have happened and many times. Galileo himself noted that the 'ancients' were aware of telescopes. The question is just how good these telescopes were and how much knowledge the astronomer/priests of these early civilizations were able to obtain from them. Yet Brecher and Sagan give no consideration to this at all! Their narrow vision cannot alter the facts, but their writings do cast light on the root of their problem...." -- Hunter H. Adams III, archaeoastronomer, African Observers of the Universe: The Sirius Question, 1983

"A recent find in the Idaean Cave in Crete of two rock crystal lenses of unusually good optical quality led to this investigation of other lenses from antiquity. The evidence indicates that the use of lenses was widespread throughout the Middle East and the Mediterranean basin over several millennia. The quality of some of these lenses was sufficient to permit their use as magnifying glasses. The use of lenses as burning glasses in Classical Greece is noted, as is the need for magnifying lenses to authenticate seal impressions. The probability that magnifying lenses were used by gem carvers and seal engravers is discussed. The fine detail of Roman gold-glass portrait medallions and the discovery of a lens in the house of an engraver in Pompeii and another in the house of an artist in Tanis are presented as evidence for the use of the lenses for magnifying purposes. Methods of producing optical quality lenses by simple procedures are also presented." -- Sines, G., and Sakellarakis, Y.A., archaeologists, Lenses in Antiquity, American Journal of Archaeology, Volume 91, Number 2, Pages 191-196, Apr 1987

"If one Italian scientist is correct then the telescope was not invented sometime in the 16th century by Dutch spectacle makers, but by ancient Assyrian astronomers nearly three thousand years earlier." -- World's Oldest Telescope?, BBC, Jul 1999

"I call it consensus blindness. People agree not to see what they are convinced cannot exist. 'Everyone knows' that there was no optical technology in antiquity, so consequently when you come across it, staring you in the face, you go blind. End of conflict." -- Robert G. K. Temple, author, Forbidden Technology, 2009

"The ancients apparently used the telescope long before Pythagoras's time." -- Larry B. Radka, historian, Telescopes and the Ancients, 2010

Snow Phoenix said:

You realize you're supporting someone who believes in the Greek creation myth, right?

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This is correct.

The Greek creation myth is identical to the Hebrew creation myth.

"All things were mixed up together, then Mind came and arranged them all in distinct order." -- Anaxagoras, philosopher, 5th century B.C.

"Then I heard someone who had a book of Anaxagoras, as he said, out of which he read that mind was the disposer and cause of all, and I was quite delighted at the notion of this, which appeared admirable, and I said to myself; If mind is the disposer, mind will dispose all for the best, and put each particular in the best place ...." -- Plato, philosopher, Phaedo, 360 B.C.

"... Anaxagoras, who says that all things were together and at rest for an infinite period of time, and that then Mind introduced motion and separated them...." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book VIII, 350 B.C.

"He [Anaxagoras] said that the beginning of the universe was mind and matter, mind being the creator and matter that which came into being. For that when all things were together, mind came and arranged them." -- Hippolytus, priest, 2nd century

And that the planets of our solar system are literally the Greek gods...

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Because they are.

"I suspect that the sun, moon, earth, stars, and heaven, which are still the Gods of many barbarians, were the only Gods known to the aboriginal Hellenes. Seeing that they were always moving and running, from their running nature they were called Gods or runners (Theous, Theontas)" -- Plato, philosopher, Cratylus, 360 B.C.

"Another of his [Pythagoras's] theories was ... that the sun, and the moon, and the stars, were all Gods...." -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, Life of Pythagoras, 3rd century

"He [Thales] held the sun and the planets for Gods. And in the same sense Pythagoras, on account of its immense force of attraction, said that the Sun was a prison of Zeus, that is, a body possessed of the greatest circuits." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1690

Read the Bible.

"And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided under the whole heaven." -- Deuteronomy 4:19

"And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth." -- Jeremiah 8:2