Romans 11 and election: Can the non-elect be saved?

Arc said:

I posted this question in the Romans 9 thread but it just turned into an eschatology debate. I'm just wanting to focus on soteriology.

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sorry , it's not one or the other , it's both.

Israel's future is a saved one .

Arc said:

I posted this question in the Romans 9 thread but it just turned into an eschatology debate. I'm just wanting to focus on soteriology.

The question is, can someone with a Reformed view of soteriology explain the text of Romans 11 to me? It seems Paul is stating that some of the non-elect can be saved. Read on:

Paul states that Israel is divided into believers and non-believers:

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So first off, Paul emphatically states that God has not cast off all Israel since Paul is an Israelite himself and then concludes that God has not cast of those whom He foreknew, so there is indeed a remnant of Israel who like Paul are believers "according to the election of grace"

No problem so far. But that's about to change. Reading on:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:

“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

Two parts of Israel, one part elect, the rest are blinded. But what will become of the blinded part. You know, the part that is not elect?

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Very interesting. Paul is holding out hope for this non-elect part of hardened Israel. Read on:

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

How can one read this another way? Paul begins by stating some of Israel are elect and foreknown by God and have not stumbled, but others of Israel were not believers, not elect and were blinded by God and cast off. But Paul then states that he is hoping to provoke them to jealousy and save some of them!

How can Paul really believe he can rouse and save some of the non-elect, blinded by God Jews? Can a non-elect person be saved?

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First there are two elections at play in Romans 11

can a elect Israelite be saved ? yes of course the nation is ELECT , the promise is "to you and to your children" .... not simply "some of you" !

can a reprobate Jew be saved ? no more than a reprobate Gentile.

provoking the Jews to jealousy more than indicates God has not finished with Israel , just because some are cut off does not mean the nation is cut off from God's mercy.

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid:

God's mercy endures forever.

Paul's actually talking about those to whom in his thinking "naturally belong [the promises]" Romans 9:4.

There are two elections rattling around in Romans 9 & 11. How they interact is itself pretty interesting, too: that God does have some people who are elect, and yet present enemies of the Gospel for the sake of others God has also elected.

arc:

So first off, Paul emphatically states that God has not cast off all Israel since Paul is an Israelite himself and then concludes that God has not cast of those whom He foreknew, so there is indeed a remnant of Israel who like Paul are believers "according to the election of grace"

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I agree, There are those who are forknown of God in all nations of the world, even the nation of Israel. The foreknown and the election of grace I believe are the same people.

heymikey80 said:

Paul's actually talking about those to whom in his thinking "naturally belong [the promises]" Romans 9:4.

There are two elections rattling around in Romans 9 & 11. How they interact is itself pretty interesting, too: that God does have some people who are elect, and yet present enemies of the Gospel for the sake of others God has also elected.

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well said Mikey

I think we all need to beware of bait and switch when reading Romans 11 ;

many will , without any warning , switch from God hardening Jews , to saving the remnant , and then back to God hardening Jews , in other words they will acknowledge that Israel is an elect nation , then they will switch to "God saves only a remnant" and make THAT fit the answer to God electing and "rejecting" Israel , as if God rejects His people ;

they 'scrap the car because it needed new tires' !

Paul speaks of the remnant "at the present time" , the 'remnant' are not meant to be the entire answer for Israels future , God's Covenant love or His unchanging ways.

If it pains God that men sin , it does , it surely pains God greatly when those elected sin , BUT it pains God far far more to destroy any whom He set His love upon ; Hosea.

I welcome your exegesis of Romans 11 if you have time Mikey

Arc said:

This is not what Paul actually said. The main content of Romans 11 is already about Israel and her election.



Again, I'm not talking about the elect Jew. I will quote Paul again:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest (of Israel) were blinded.

Paul is speaking about the same break down he established in Romans 9:6 not all Israel are of Israel. The whole nation is not elect. Some are and some are not.

Rom 9:8 those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The promises do not apply to all Israel, they apply to all who are in the Messiah. This is why Paul pours out his heart to his non-elect brothers. He's trying to bring them to the Messiah because only in Jesus do the promises apply.



I thought we were all born reprobate? But Paul is in fact trying to reach those who he said were not elect. No matter how you cut it, that's what he said.



If they come to Christ then yes, they are grafted back in, but if they do not then they remain cut off. My issue raised has still not been addressed from the context of Romans 11.

Paul has stated that Israel is made of:

1. Those who are foreknown and elect and have not been rejected as His people.

2. Those who are not elect and are blinded and cast away/fallen.

Obviously those in group #1 are saved. But Paul is saying that those in group #2, while not saved can indeed be saved. This is an amazing statement since they are not the elect of God!

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as long as you continue to see only one election your surprise (at the end of your post) will remain .

no we are not all born reprobates , the term is a theological term for "none elect" .

Scripture tells us Israel is an elect nation , you say Paul didn't say it , but I tell you he was thinking it right from Romans 1 onwards especially Romans 9 and Romans 11

Romans 9 deals with the real issue ; if God promised Abraham and his offspring salvation then has the word of God failed ? the answer is no , because God selects even amongst the elect nation. Regarding the point of who is a real Jew (Romans 3) it should be clear Paul is dealing with a Jew not simply National Israel , a distinction is made ;

Romans 3
[28] For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So one may be a Israelite without being a "true Jew" in Paul's teaching .

what about God's promises ?

Rom.4

[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[6] Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
[8] Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
[9] Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
[10] How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
[11] And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
[12] And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
[13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[14] For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
[15] Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
[16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
[17] (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
[18] Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
[19] And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
[20] He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
[21] And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


The universal blessing according to the promises of God upon Abraham and his seed (note it is upon all believers here V11 & V16) through faith not works .

Does this mean God works only with Gentiles now ? or that any distinction between Jew and Gentile is meaningless ? > no , even though some do not believe from amongst the Jews , the Lord continues His love towards His people Israel. The promises are to them first ;

Rom.9

[1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
[2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
[3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
[4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;


Acts 2
Peter preaching to Jews

[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
[30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
[32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
[33] Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
[34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
[35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

After Paul clears up why all Jews are not saved (Romans 9) he moves over the vexed question of the nations responsibility (Romans 10) and onto the Nations future (Romans 11)

If God's word hasn't failed because God never intended to save every single Jew (Romans 9) then what becomes of the nation as a whole ? has the Church replaced , surperceeded Israel ? God forbid !

Israels hardening is only in part , therfore it is nonesense to even think Israel has been cast away , the severity of God is only over them that fell not the nation , those cut off are branches not the vine , the blindeness that has happened over Israel is for a set time ; until the full number of the Gentiles come in (notice it's not the full number of the elect , or the remnant , or even elect Jews ) and then massive conversion on a global scale , Israel will become a Christian nation. why ?

Because God's love is unconditional and He made promises unto Abraham and his seed .

you have placed yourself in a position where "vessels of wrath , fitted to destruction" (Romans 9) may even be saved , impossible .... these are blinded .

Arc said:

If they come to Christ then yes, they are grafted back in, but if they do not then they remain cut off. My issue raised has still not been addressed from the context of Romans 11.

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there is no if , Paul expected a national conversion after the full number of the Gentiles come in. Some are cut off , true , but never is the nation cut off .

consider ;

Luke 21

[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Paul has stated that Israel is made of:

1. Those who are foreknown and elect and have not been rejected as His people.

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that is true , but the nation is elect and foreknown , individual election never contradicts or eliminates national election. They are beloved for the fathers sake .

2. Those who are not elect and are blinded and cast away/fallen.

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true , but again that has nothing to do with national election (Romans 3)

Obviously those in group #1 are saved. But Paul is saying that those in group #2, while not saved can indeed be saved. This is an amazing statement since they are not the elect of God!

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false deduction , there is no salvation beyond election (Romans 8) and these two groups NEVER illiminate God's love for national Israel , she will be regrafted back into the vine .... her hardening was in part , her stumble was not a compete fall . Because of God's unchanging love and promises , Israel remains blessed otherwise salvation and blessing would be on the basis of works .

Arc said:

Well there are different interpretations of Romans 11:28, but some just don't seem consistent with the context. For instance:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

compare with:

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul states that God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. So some have been cast away, and these castaways are the point of this thread, as they are not those whom God foreknew, they are not the remnant according to the election of Grace.

But back on Romans 11:28, a very plausible interpretation goes like this:

Concerning the gospel they (the castaways of Israel) are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they (the elect of Israel) are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

The reason this seems likely is because the phrase "the election" was just used by Paul in verse 5

Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. This group is clearly people like Paul who accept the Messiah. This is also clearly not the group Paul is trying to reach by making then envious.

So for Paul to mention "the election" again in verse 28 is not surprising. Israel is split in two, the elect and the enemies. The other option some give is that all are elect, which would run contra all Paul has just explained.

Paul's heart is for even the non-elect Jews who have rejected Christ and have been cast off. He wants to save even them, though they are not the foreknown, elect of God.

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Well, not every instance of "chosen" can be interpreted as the theological term for "elect". The two "elect" Paul is speaking to, they are indeed different. Compare:

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened Rom 11:7

a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in Rom 11:24

The fact is that the "elect" in Romans 11:28 are not the exact same elect in Romans 11:1-8. They can't be. "The elect obtained it" in Rom 11:7 "a partial hardening has come" in Rom 11:24. They aren't the same choices being made.

It does point to the fluidity of a term like "chosen" -- it's not used as a strictly theological term by Paul. Paul's saying, "Look, Israel's still chosen! But it's a remnant of Israel. But wait, there's more people chosen than are chosen! They've been hardened for your sakes." It's a fluid term with a strong dependence on the context, so you get relative meanings for the word, relative to their context.

Election concerns worldly duties, not salvation. All can possibly be saved, but few undergo the spiritual discipline important for salvation. Paul's argument in Romans presupposes two things, that salvation is not gained through birthright, because the determinant of Christianity is spirit, and that salvation is not gained through action, because no one ought to be able to boast. Salvation is gained through individual relationship with God, who grants inner peace, and this inner peace allows for the action that would otherwise be undertaken with the wrong intention and through the wrong means.

Arc said:

First of all, thanks for answering my post. I'm having trouble following your difference you cite between verses 1-8 and verse 25. The elect within Israel obtain it and those not elect within Israel are blinded in early Romans 11. In verse 25 the partial hardening is the very same thing Paul has been speaking about. It's partial, the elect have obtained and the rest are the part who are that part of Israel who are blind. The same thing that was mentioned in verse 7.

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A look at 11:28 foils this idea: "As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers." Partial hardening has occurred to people regarded as elect -- and they're presently enemies of the Gospel to boot.

So no, it's not the same thing. In 11:7 "the elect obtained it and the rest were hardened"; in 11:28 "they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regarding election they are beloved ..."

So tell me how the elect are not the elect ...?

Arc said:

Well my concern is that in this context chosen refers to salvation. Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. Those who were blinded were the very ones Paul says can be saved. Their blindness is not permanent, it can be reversed. Then Paul ends saying all Israel will be saved. This seems to be talking about salvation. The olive tree also makes this clear, being cut off but being grafted back in by faith, the very condition of salvation. The term elect found in verse 5 also is speaking about salvation: 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. The mention of grace and not by works seems to be a pretty good giveaway.

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See above. The context is the context, but the election is not the election.

No problem so far. But that's about to change. Reading on:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

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This can all be cleared up by clearing up the presupposition of the word "elect."

Whenever scripture states something about the "elect" it is talking about those who are in Christ...people are not predestined to be the elect, and there are no scriptures outside of those taken out of context that even come close to meaning this. Those who are the elect (outside of Israel) are those who are in Christ.

Anyone can be saved if they come to faith in Christ and then live a lifestyle of practicing that faith. Even Pharaoh could have turned if it was in his heart to do so, but when we read that God "hardened his heart" what the Hebrew implies is that God only strengthened the inclinations that were already present in his heart. When Paul makes the statement that "what if" God was to make vessels of wrath in order to show His grace, Paul was not stating that God has done this, he was only stating the same he has in another place concerning God being the Potter, able to make from one lump of clay both good and evil persons (but again, this is not what God did, for Paul says "what if" for the sake of argument).

Blessings!

swordmaster said:

This can all be cleared up by clearing up the presupposition of the word "elect."

Whenever scripture states something about the "elect" it is talking about those who are in Christ...people are not predestined to be the elect, and there are no scriptures outside of those taken out of context that even come close to meaning this. Those who are the elect (outside of Israel) are those who are in Christ.

Anyone can be saved if they come to faith in Christ and then live a lifestyle of practicing that faith. Even Pharaoh could have turned if it was in his heart to do so, but when we read that God "hardened his heart" what the Hebrew implies is that God only strengthened the inclinations that were already present in his heart. When Paul makes the statement that "what if" God was to make vessels of wrath in order to show His grace, Paul was not stating that God has done this, he was only stating the same he has in another place concerning God being the Potter, able to make from one lump of clay both good and evil persons (but again, this is not what God did, for Paul says "what if" for the sake of argument).

Blessings!

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Israel are elect , they are not all in Christ .

Judas was elected to the office of Apostle he was not in Christ either.

Election in Christ means being chosen for salvation through sanctification of the truth .

Paul is stating that God is the potter , He alone has sole determination of each pot and it's purpose , yes , that does mean God created each person with a view in mind .

Arc said:

I don't think we are in disagreement. I'm simply trying to make an exegetical point about Romans 11.

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Oh! Sorry! and blessings!!!