Lysimachus
Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
I understand this kind of frustration, I have been saying things with scripture that fully supports my position, which is than said to be Satan's deception!? while it is ignored or destracted from in responses.
I get my basis from the Bible which I seem to always have to show again even in the same thread. The phrases of perishing and destruction mean relative to what we are and to what God meant for us. It is a corruption. To say these mean annihilation contradicts other scripture which it would not need to do. Here are Bible scriptures, again, that show the reality of coming judgment which would endure.
I believe that every wicked person will burn at different lengths, according to their works. But eventually, everyone will burn up, and be no more. The Lake of Fire will cover the entire breadth of the earth according to 2 Peter 3:10-13. In order for the Earth to be made new in verse 13, the fire HAS to be removed! Therefore, the wicked cannot burn forever in the fire that covers the earth! This burning up will only take place when ALL the saints are safe inside the New Jerusalem, while the rest of the planet is covered in the Lake of Fire. After the wicked are burned up, then God will remove the Fire. After God removes the fire, the earth will be renewed before our very eyes. Then the Gates of the New Jerusalem will open up, and the Saints will inherit the New Earth for eternity.
This takes place at the END of the millennium.
Matthew 25:
30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
And? This does not say they will burn for as long as God shall last. All the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, and they will burn intensely, and feel the pain intensely, until they finally burn up. Hitler, for example, will burn MUCH longer and feel the pain MUCH longer than say, a 12 year old boy, that, although did not give his heart to God, did nobody harm, and did nothing corrupt or immoral.
I worship a fair God, you worship a sadistic one. I am convinced of this, and am fully persuaded. And it is my duty to persuade you, and pray that the Holy Spirit convicts you of the same, and helps you see that you are falsely misinterpreting these texts.
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Luke 12:47-49)
The above quote proves God to be a fair God. Everyone will be punished accordingly, some will burn longer than others. It all depends on the knowledge they received, and rejected. It all depends on how much they knew, and how much they went against what they knew to be right.
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
And? I agree!!! They will go!! But they will not burn eternally!! They will burn, ACCORDING to their deeds! (See Psalms 28:4; Isaiah 59:18; Jeremiah 25:14; and Romans 2:6)
The punishment is everlasting. Cessation of consciousness is not everlasting punishment, punishment is only so while there is awareness.
One more time....
"Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying, any more than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving, or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging, or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming, or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching. The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process. The results or consequences are eternally irrevocable. And of course, it is worthy of mention that the Greek word for “everlasting” and “eternal” in the New Testament are both translated from the exact same word, “aionos”.
"For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." (Obadiah 1:16)
Just like before they were born, Fred, they will be in the EXACT same state after they burned up. It's what the Bible says!
Even Satan will turn to ashes, who is a SPIRIT BEING!
"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Ezekiel 28:18)
It means just what it says Fred. Even spirit beings will turn into ashes according to the scriptures. They will CEASE to exist.
Luke 13:
27 He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.
We are told there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There will be anguish from the judgment that is to come.
I agree. Many will burn for long lengths of time. Imagine sticking your finger on the stove and see how long you can last. Some will burn for weeks, some months. But they will all burn up. That is enough punishment if you ask me for only 70 years of sin one's life!!! Let's not get UNREALISTIC here, and make God out to look like a tyrant, who is brutal and torturous to His enemies!
And then Revelation 20:
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
2 things:
1. This verse is using symbolism. A beast, and a false prophet. These are symbols. But the verse just before, verse 9, where there are no symbols, has the wicked being "devoured": "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Rev 20:9)
2. John the Revelator is quoting from Isaiah 34:8-15:
34:8 For [it is] the day of the LORD's vengeance, [and] the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls.
34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls.
34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
How can the wicked be burning for eternity if animals are dwelling in the same spot the fire was? And plants are growing in its stead?
The only way you are going to come to a correct interpretation of Revelation, Fred, is if you know where John is quoting from and employing the symbolism. Also, the terms "for ever and ever" are the Greek words "aionos", which has also been translated "from age to age", meaning, for a long, indefinite period of time. It doesn't mean as long as God shall last.
It says Jonah was in the belly of the whale "for ever" in Jonah 2:6. It also says Samuel was a "high priest for ever". The term "for ever and ever" must be understood in context of the duration of the subject in discussion. "until the end". The burning will continue forever until the person is dead. This is very simple to understand.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
If "hell" (hades) was cast into the lake of fire, doesn't that put an end to the physical torment? I would think so. These passages only support what I have been saying. The results of the eternal fire are everlasting. Remember, eternal fire comes from an eternal God. It is "eternal fire". But this does not mean it "eternally burns". Big difference between "eternal fire", and "eternally burning fire".
The dead called so by the Bible stand before God and are judged, and receive the sentence, which Christ prophesied. They are cast to the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Nothing says they will be consumed. This is a level of punishment not experienced by them while waiting in the realm of the dead prior to the judgment. Death in the Bible does not mean cessation of consciousness regardless of fallen men of old testament understanding being quoted with that kind of perspective, which is limited to this world, "under the sun". There are indeed more passages that speak of this consciousness further. The new testament makes it clear.
The only hell-fire that will ever exist is the Lake of Fire at the end of the world. There is no such thing as an "outer darkness" outside the sun which you are imagining. Such thinking is no different than believing in Harry Potter or the Tooth Fairy. The terms "outer darkness" is simply a term to mean that they will be DEAD. Out of heaven! It is absolutely amazing the extreme lengths one will go to literalize the Word of God and make a sheer mockery out of it, and not grasp the beautiful symbolism and imagery being portrayed.
I have just proven to you from scriptures that the wicked, including Satan, will be CONSUMED. To try and divert from this, you would be forced to try and prove to me that there is such thing as a dichotomization of the soul. But the Bible gives no such distinction. It always says "they", or "them"...not "their bodies only". When it says the wicked will be consumed, it is not referring to their bodies. It is referring to the totality of the personhood---the ENTIRE MAKEUP of what makes a person A PERSON.
Once again, it is my invitation to you to abandon this Pagan, Spiritualistic doctrine, that is on par with believing in the Wizard of Oz, and is not Biblical!
Last edited:
Upvote
0