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Andrew

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I recommend you read Christianity In Crisis and Counterfeit Revival to get an idea of what these men are really teaching.

oh please, not those same-old books again. i could just as well recommend you books that counter these books.

I have read many of Hagin's books, and dont find anything wrong with them, save one concept on OSNAS. I read the Copeland's Voice of Victory magazine regulary, and dont find anything wrong with them. I have heard Benny Hinn preach and minister and dont find anything wrong with them. My Pastor himself and my church believes in many of the things they teach and even carry many of their books in our bookstore.

So if you want to hit out at these Christians like some self-appointed church policeman, then I will hit out at you and yours too.

I have heard all the critics of WOF and can only conclude that they are really outdated and all seem to get their points from the same 'textbook' written by someone who is a bitter, self-appointed watchtower or something.

Outdated? I didn't know God's word changed.

that's funny, coming from a cessationist.

Biblical? The word of faith movement teaches that faith is a force and words are the container of that force and by your words you can create your own reality.

if you cant even believe that the Word must be mixed with faith, then I dont know what else to say to you.

Condemnation? I am showing you the errors they teach, God alone condemns.

Calling other Christians false teachers/prophets and tearing down their ministries and their teachings is condemnation to me plain and simple. Tell me, who appointed you to judge God's servants? And if you think what you are doing is so honorable and holy, go try it on the Catholics here. You thread wont survive a day.

If my words seem harsh, that's becos I'm sick and tired of fellow Christians knocking down my beliefs and leaders whom I respect and love, and it doesnt help that the mods allow it to go on. So if you dont like your beliefs and leaders being knocked, then dont do it to me.
 
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SUNSTONE

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Originally posted by SUNSTONE
God talking to me runs much deeper than feelings. You named off a long list of things that you believed to be "false teachings". Yet I used the word to prove to you that they were true, or atleast a reason to think that way, might be true, even if your not totally convienced.

1. She said angels talk to her. Did angels talk in the bible?  Did Billy Graham write a book about Angels?

2. She talked about many different things that demons do, like the demon that destroys, and how demons keep people in the state of unbelief. Did Jesus cast out demons, and tell us to do the same? Did God talk about the rebuking the destroyer in the book Malichi? Also what did Jesus mean when He talked about cleaning a house of demons and then the devil comes back bringing seven more unclean spirits, and atlast the state of the man now is worst than the first? Paul had a thorn in the flesh because of demonic forces.

How do devils, demons, and that sort work?

3.So the only thing you have is that wether or not Jesus went to hell?  This is the only thing that you  can find fault on with her?

What did Jesus mean when He said He said. (Not exact) "The Son of Man must do like Jonah and spend 3 days in the belly of the fish"?

What does this doctrine have to do with your life?

If you believed it, or not, would it matter either way?If so how and why.

If you believed this, will you still goto heaven? What about the people that believe and listen to her?

So this is why I said, "WHO CARES". Because if anything it just means that Jesus did that much more for our justification.It doesn't change the way I pray, work, eat, sleep, pick my nose :sick: .

Apologist, answer these questions.

I have read Christianity in Crisis a long time ago. I think my brother still has the book. I forgot what was in it.

I know God, and I am getting to know His word all the time, but I don't know it all yet. But I can tell you this, what you believe does not line up with the word of God. You can't have your beliefs that you have, and still think that the bible is 100 percent God breathed on. Does this mean your going to hell? No, it doesn't, in fact I know your saved. What this means is, you are still on milk, and in due season, I pray that you learn to eat meat.

I don't have my bible with me, so I will wait and break it down for you tomorrow with so many verses it will make your head spin. :p

 

 
 
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SUNSTONE

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Originally posted by Apologist
I have yet to see any believer move even a small dirt pile in their garden by faith. Let's get serious here my friend.

The people in the word of faith movement always forget the key passage in 1 John 5:14:

"Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us."

If it is God's will for us to have things when we ask for them then He will give them to us. If it is not His will we can pray as much as we want and it isn't going to happen.



In light of this statement, what would you do with Jesus' parable of the persistant friend in Luke 11:5-8?:

And He said to them, “Which of you shall have a friend, and go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; 6 for a friend of mine has come to me on his journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within and say, ‘Do not trouble me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give to you’? 8 I say to you, though he will not rise and give to him because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needs."




So do you believe that Mark 16:17-18 is for us today also?:

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Since you asked a question with a scenerio, I will answer it.

That parable of the friend is the way we pray, or should pray. If you pray for something, what attitude do you pray with? How long do you pray for that something? I am willing to bet, its with a so called "humble" attitude, and you just ask once.

Humble is good, but in this situation, it really is fear behind it. Because you prayed for something you want, and instead of being bold in your prayer, you don't really expect it to be answered, and you hide behind the attitude of fear and call it "humble". Alot of people say, "I never pray for anything" or " I only pray for others".

Now that may sound strange to you, but look at the great men of God in the bible, they prayed and prayed, and fasted, and prayed, and tore there cloths, pulled there beards. Sometimes doing this for days. 

Ask and keep on asking.

There is alot to this, in fact I listened to a 4 day semonar on it, and he said he still couldn't get it all in, with all the checks and balances, it truely is deep. .

Now that verse in Mark.

That verse is just like almost all other verses, they can't stand by themselves. Look at when Jesus was tempted to jump off of the cliff, by the devil. Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord. And the snake thing, there is an example with Paul as he was on the ship he got bit. Did he pick it up and play with it, like I have seen on t.v. Of course not, and I wouldn't do such a thing, with the balance of the scriptures.

Now answer those questions, and call your pastor and ask him specificly about Joyce Meyers, and tomorrow I will have those scriptures, and balances to the scriptures. It all makes since, but if you just pick a peice here and there, well no wonder your confussed.
 
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Andrew

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Let it be stated too, Apologist,

that when you call another Christian a false teacher/prophet, it is a very serious charge.
you are in fact saying that he or she is not a Christian, and saying that he or she is out to deceive -- ie evil intentions.

So it is one thing to say you dont agree with a certain doctrine, but quite another to call a minister, pastor or evangelist a false prophet/teacher.

The Bible calls them WOLF in sheep's clothing. ie not sheep in sheep's clothing. IOW non-Christians. And a wolf who comes in sheep's clothing implies a big element of deception. ie out to deceive. A Christian may be sincerely wrong in his doctrines, but that does not mean he is out to mislead/con others.

So, you might really want to think carefully b4 you go around calling other Christians false prophets and teachers. And if you are accountable to a church, and are convinced that there is a wolf among the sheep, then bring it up to the shepherds. ie your church leaders and let them handle it (I'm assuming you are not a pastor or deacon of a church).
 
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Susan

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Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Benny Hen
 

 
If you found out THAT kind of info on him, he would be out of the ministry in one second. Seriously, you can teach questionable doctrines and relieve people of their hard-earned cash all you want, but if one page of that kind of material is found on your PC or in your belongings and is publicly documented, it's all over for you. Unless you suddenly decide to join the Family of Love or the Raelians.

Sorry for offending everyone, please do not warn me.
 
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MizDoulos

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Note:&nbsp&nbspThere will be no further public complaining about the moderators. One of the posts has been removed recently, and public complaining will not be tolerated. Any further public complaints will earn an official warning. Use your e-mail or the private message option to express your complaint.

Lastly, there will also be no further negative comments made against another denomination or belief system. Let's learn to respect each other's beliefs and respond kindly. Or, you may "agree to disagree" and move on.

Any further disharmony due to negative comments will render this thread closed and/or warnings issued.

Thank you for our cooperation.


[nodis][/nodis]


[notroll][/notroll]
 
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SUNSTONE

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Originally posted by Susan
&nbsp;

&nbsp;
If you found out THAT kind of info on him, he would be out of the ministry in one second. Seriously, you can teach questionable doctrines and&nbsp;relieve people of their hard-earned cash&nbsp;all you want, but if one page of that kind of material is found on your PC or in your belongings&nbsp;and is publicly documented, it's all over for you. Unless you suddenly decide to join the Family of Love or the Raelians.

Sorry for offending everyone, please do not warn me.

What kind of material?
 
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Apologist

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Originally posted by Andrew
Let it be stated too, Apologist,

that when you call another Christian a false teacher/prophet, it is a very serious charge.
you are in fact saying that he or she is not a Christian, and saying that he or she is out to deceive -- ie evil intentions.


So when the Apostle Paul rebuked Peter was he wrong?
Why should I be any less inclined to do the same?

Paul specifically named people in scripture so I see nothing worng in doing the same. In 2 Timothy 4:9-10 Paul said:

Be diligent to come to me quickly; 10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has departed for Thessalonica
Do you hold Paul to the same standard you are applying to me?

I never said these WOF teachers are not Christians because I don't know their heart. I explicitly stated that I was showing you the error in their teachings, I nowhere made a proclamation on their eternal destiny as that is a prerogative of the Holy Spirit alone.

What has become of the church these days that everyone is affraid to speak out on these issues? Are we not to judge a tree by it's fruit?



So it is one thing to say you dont agree with a certain doctrine, but quite another to call a minister, pastor or evangelist a false prophet/teacher.

Tell me this: According to Deuteronomy 18 what qualifies someone as a false prophet? I'll give you the answer here:

"And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."

So if what a prophet says does not come to pass then he is a false prophet according to God. Some of the teachers mentioned have made multiple prophecies that did not come to pass, so what is the conclusion from the word of God?
 
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Apologist

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Sorry MizDoulos,

I posted my last point before reading your post.

If I may I would like to post one final post that concerns this issue of whether we should judge other Christians.

This is from CRI's web site and I post it in hopes that we get a biblical perspective on this subject:


Christians Criticizing Christians: Can It Be Biblical?


by Bob and Gretchen Passantino





Mike Warnke, whose lucrative career careened through four marriages and more than one affair, says God will judge Cornerstone magazine for printing a report disproving his ex-satanic high priest "testimony" and exposing his moral lapses. Healing movement televangelist Benny Hinn says God will attack CRI president Hank Hanegraaff and his family because he criticizes Hinn and his Faith movement colleagues. Lauren Stratford's supporters charge Bob and Gretchen Passantino as agents of Satan because we published evidence that Stratford's best-selling testimony of satanic ritual abuse was false.

When it comes to Christians criticizing Christians, the battle lines are drawn. But are the lines biblical? Is it wrong to publicly evaluate the teachings of a Christian pastor, expose the immorality of a Christian leader, or tell the truth about a popular Christian media figure?

Evangelicals warn people about the false teachings and practices of the cults, which claim compatibility with Christianity and yet deny cardinal Christian doctrine. Our standard is truth and our judge is Scripture. Yet when apologists turn to false teachings within the Christian church, some evangelicals apply a different standard. Frequently heard objections include, "Jesus said it's wrong to judge," and, "Criticism is unloving and divisive." Christians who voice these protests fail their own test — they criticize and judge other Christians for criticizing and judging other Christians. Furthermore, these critics fail to understand that without such scrutiny, Christians are misled into heresy and duped by those whose public ministries promote false teachings and/or hide private immoral behavior. Careful, biblical criticism expresses true Christian love and affords essential safeguards to faith.

Good discernment and moral accountability should be practiced among believers. The Old Testament establishes this pattern. Instructions concerning false prophets in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 assume the prophet arises from the congregation of Israel. People are admonished to banish idolatry from their families: "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend..." (v. 6). Deuteronomy 13 instructs the Israelites how to practice good discernment within their communities: "You must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly." If the community is idolatrous, it must be dealt with publicly (v. 14). Psalm 50:18 states that one who sees a crime and doesn't report it has moral culpability.

The New Testament continues the theme of good discernment within the believing community, most notably when the Bereans test Paul's teachings (Acts 17:11) and the Thessalonians are commanded to test all things (1 Thess. 5:21-22). Judgment is not excluded, but unrighteous judgment is. Jesus declared: "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment" (John 7:24).

Jesus expelled the money changers from the temple, denounced the Pharisees and scribes, and rebuked the teachers of the Law. He reprimanded Peter in front of the other disciples (Matt. 16:22-23). Paul followed Jesus' example, naming false teachers in the church (2 Tim. 2:14-19) and openly criticizing Peter (Gal. 2:11, 14).

When immorality occurs in the church (Titus 1:15-16), the Bible says to deal with it truthfully and constructively. The procedure for public leaders caught in false teaching or immorality is for them to be rebuked publicly "so that the others may take warning" (1 Tim. 5:20). A congregation member who sins privately against another Christian is not to be exposed publicly unless he (or she) persists in sin, in which case he is to be rebuked before the church and we are to "treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector" (Matt. 18:15-17). Paul followed this procedure concerning the Christian who persisted in sexual immorality (1 Cor. 5:3-12), and affirmed that judgment belongs to the church.

Christian leaders are accountable to God's people, whom the leaders serve, and should be "above reproach," "respectable," and "able to teach" (1 Tim. 3:2). A Christian leader who is a false teacher or immoral should be rebuked to encourage reform (Titus 1:13), and cannot separate his ministry from his life, expecting God to bless his preaching while privately he sins; he is "disqualified for every good work" (vv. 15-16).

Telling the truth about false teaching or immorality in the church corresponds with the ethics and truth which are to characterize the church. The church is the "salt of the earth" and "the light of the world" (Matt. 5:13-14) only if characterized by truthfulness (v. 11) and righteousness (v. 16). The Christian leader has an obligation to "hold firmly the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it" (Titus 1:9). No Christian is happy when false teaching or immorality arises, but we cannot neglect responsibility for doctrinal and moral accountability.

Christians sometimes are uncomfortable with criticism within the church because they assume that public criticism, since it is painful, is also destructive. On the contrary, the "pain" of biblically conducted confrontation produces individual growth (1 Tim. 4:16), encourages others to Christian maturity (1 Tim. 5:19-20), promotes church strength (Eph. 4:15), and preserves the church's reputation in the world (1 Pet. 2:12).
 
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MizDoulos

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Hi, Apologist ~ since Susan's initial request was to give opinions pertaining to the named evangelists and their teaching, your last post citing an article on Christians criticizing each other is within the bounds of this discussion.

However, having said that, I'm asking all members to discuss the topic without any further negaive, personal comments. The previous warning still stands.

Thank you for your cooperation.
 
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SUNSTONE

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Originally posted by SUNSTONE
God talking to me runs much deeper than feelings. You named off a long list of things that you believed to be "false teachings". Yet I used the word to prove to you that they were true, or atleast a reason to think that way, might be true, even if your not totally convienced.

1. She said angels talk to her. Did angels talk in the bible?&nbsp; Did Billy Graham write a book about Angels?

2. She talked about many different things that demons do, like the demon that destroys, and how demons keep people in the state of unbelief. Did Jesus cast out demons, and tell us to do the same? Did God talk about the rebuking the destroyer in the book Malichi? Also what did Jesus mean when He talked about cleaning a house of demons and then the devil comes back bringing seven more unclean spirits, and atlast the state of the man now is worst than the first? Paul had a thorn in the flesh because of demonic forces.

How do devils, demons, and that sort work?

3.So the only thing you have is that wether or not Jesus went to hell?&nbsp; This is the only thing that you&nbsp; can find fault on with her?

What did Jesus mean when He said He said. (Not exact) "The Son of Man must do like Jonah and spend 3 days in the belly of the fish"?

What does this doctrine have to do with your life?

If you believed it, or not, would it matter either way?If so how and why.

If you believed this, will you still goto heaven? What about the people that believe and listen to her?

So this is why I said, "WHO CARES". Because if anything it just means that Jesus did that much more for our justification.It doesn't change the way I pray, work, eat, sleep, pick my nose :sick: .

Apologist please. :pray:
 
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