Can the lutherans explain this part of Matthew to me based on their interperation

help_the_lord · Apr 16, 2011

I want to hear from the ppl who are truly apply the Salvation through faith alone without works, the meaning of this portion of the gospel to me.. Please don't respond if your gong to take bits and peices of Pauls writing *or any of it* to answer me. I believe Paul to be grossly missinterperated and don't wish to get into a debate about it. This question is strictly about the passage I have cited. I'm not asking for anything other than you breaking it down and explaining its meaning to me. I also don't wish to hear responses that are argumentative, opininated. I just want a clear breakdown so I can understand how you interperate this passage. Thank you .

Matthew 25:31
When the son of man shal come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be bathered all nationsl: and he shall seperate them one from another, as a sherpherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his hright hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hugred, and fed thee? or thisrty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least these my brethren, ye have done uinto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, preared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hugred and ye gave me no meatZ: I was thirsty and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athrist, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minster unto thee?
Then shall he answer them saying, Verily I say unto you Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal.

Arc · Apr 16, 2011

All I can tell you is that whenever judgment is mentioned it's based on works. Salvation is based on faith. On the day of judgment we will be judged by our works which in fact prove our faith.

So the passage you cite is exactly as it reads. We will be judged by our works.

Romans 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10, 1 Peter 4:17, 2 Peter 3:14, Rev 20:12

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

There is no contradiction between Grace and good works, good works follow Grace that we have received. Our good works in fact prove our faith to be genuine. This is why James says faith without works is dead.

heymikey80 · Apr 16, 2011

Sure. It starts with pulling back from the assumptions that are attributed to this, one of the last public monologues of Jesus.

Jesus operates as a subversive element in Judaism. He's not there to nullify law, but fulfill. He's not there to abrogate the Sabbath, but do what it intends to do. He's not there to conquer, but to redeem.

On that assumption, the basic audience presumption itself is about to be subverted. Jesus doesn't intend to address the crowd of people, who have fawned over Pharisaic works-for-wages. He intends to leave them in their slumber. He intends to connect with people who see something ... wrong ... with the situation, but who don't quite get it.

It's quite clear in Matthew 25 that there are two judgments. Matthew 25:32 demands that argument. This is not a separation based on works. It's a separation based on nature.

As you read through the judgments, you may get the impression that there's only one dividing line: works. But there isn't. In point of fact, everyone's being honest here. You can't avoid being honest in front of the God of the Universe: a horrible fate awaits that response.

So read both the verdict and the response. They're both true.

When you place the works-records of sheep and goats alongside one another, a very uneasy result emerges. The sheep had neglected to do things required of the goats. If they had been judged as goats, they would be equally sunk. (The reverse is also true: if the goats had been judged as sheep, they would be equally vindicated.)

Anyone who heard Jesus' condemnation of the goats would notice it: "Uh-oh. I match that description." Anyone who heard Jesus' blessing of the sheep would notice it: "Wait, these guys openly confess they haven't done it every time." Any deeper inquiry than, "Oh, yeah, judgment, got it," that would've been the trigger to say, "Wait a minute ... what'd Jesus really mean?"

There are two judgments here. Two marks to hit. One is extremely low. The other is extremely high.

Is the judgment associated with evidence of works? Well, sure. But just like in a human court, I wouldn't convict the DNA of causing the crime. I'd convict the person. It's evidence. It's not a cause.

Jesus is indeed saying that the sheep have good works. But then, the goats also have good works. They're in evidence on both sides. So what exactly are the good works distinguishing in judgment? Nothing. They're not the dividing line between saved & condemned. They simply exist, on both sides of the line.

Jpark · Apr 16, 2011

help_the_lord said:
I want to hear from the ppl who are truly apply the Salvation through faith alone without works, the meaning of this portion of the gospel to me.. Please don't respond if your gong to take bits and peices of Pauls writing *or any of it* to answer me. I believe Paul to be grossly missinterperated and don't wish to get into a debate about it. This question is strictly about the passage I have cited. I'm not asking for anything other than you breaking it down and explaining its meaning to me. I also don't wish to hear responses that are argumentative, opininated. I just want a clear breakdown so I can understand how you interperate this passage. Thank you .

Matthew 25:31
When the son of man shal come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be bathered all nationsl: and he shall seperate them one from another, as a sherpherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his hright hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hugred, and fed thee? or thisrty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least these my brethren, ye have done uinto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, preared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hugred and ye gave me no meatZ: I was thirsty and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athrist, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minster unto thee?
Then shall he answer them saying, Verily I say unto you Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal.

Judgment is based on works simply because good character produces good works and bad character produces bad works.

The desires of a man and the state of his heart are made evident by his works.

God looks at the heart (1 Samuel 16:7).

Brother Chris · Apr 16, 2011

help_the_lord said:
I want to hear from the ppl who are truly apply the Salvation through faith alone without works, the meaning of this portion of the gospel to me.. Please don't respond if your gong to take bits and peices of Pauls writing *or any of it* to answer me. I believe Paul to be grossly missinterperated and don't wish to get into a debate about it. This question is strictly about the passage I have cited. I'm not asking for anything other than you breaking it down and explaining its meaning to me. I also don't wish to hear responses that are argumentative, opininated. I just want a clear breakdown so I can understand how you interperate this passage. Thank you .

Matthew 25:31
When the son of man shal come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be bathered all nationsl: and he shall seperate them one from another, as a sherpherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his hright hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hugred, and fed thee? or thisrty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least these my brethren, ye have done uinto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, preared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hugred and ye gave me no meatZ: I was thirsty and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athrist, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minster unto thee?
Then shall he answer them saying, Verily I say unto you Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into life eternal.

It's simple, once you understand the context and when this judgement is taking place. This judgement takes place at the end of the tribulation period when Christ gathers all those who are still alive at His coming. Remember, the bible describes only 2 kinds of people, believers and unbelievers, or sheep and goats. The sheep enter the Kingdom, not because of their works, but for this reason: "then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" They were chosen unto salvation from the foundation of the world and therefore the Kingdom was prepared for God's elect. What was the evidence that they were the elect, chosen and saved by God? Their works, primarily how they treated other Christians, who will be widely persecuted, during the tribulation period where food, water, medicine, clothing, etc.. will be hard to find. Anyone can do these types of works, even atheists can, but they won't do it for the glory of God or for other Christians. The goats are condemned for not helping the believers during the tribulation period. They're not saved, they don't love the brethren, why would they help them? They're not going to risk their lives for them. That's why 1 John 3:17-18 tells us, "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?" "Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth." Love for the brethren is evidence that one has been saved by grace through faith, not of works.

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Can the lutherans explain this part of Matthew to me based on their interperation

help_the_lord

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Arc

Lover of the Truth

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heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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Jpark

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Brother Chris

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