Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

Blackhawk · Jan 15, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
BH, you don't have to be a theologian to interpret this passage, nowhere does it say that Jesus is the father or in any of the scriptures I have shown you. And NO, it does not say they are equal, that is what the theologians have been telling you, not the scriptures! Do you believe scripture does not contradict scripture?  

Then what does it say?  Do not just sayit does not say or implies what I said it saysor implies.  Prove to me it does not.   At least make a case that it does not.  Just saying it does not does not mean a thing to me. 

Your missing the fact that scripture makes the distinction between the father and the Son, it is not saying that because Jesus is "called" Lord that it is saying He is God.  I used to make the same mistake when I believed the trinity. [/B]

 

True there is a distinction between Fater and Son.  Trinitarians believe this and that is why there are three persons in the Godhead. However my point was that there are at least two verses that say that there is only one Lord.  But then Jesus is Lord.  You still haver not addressed that issue at all. 

 

Rev 11:17
17 saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. [/B]

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It is talking about God Almighty not the Son.  Jesus is never referred to in scripture as God Almighty.  Again you are making the Son into a God.  He is always Gods Son and God is always the father of Jesus.  [/B][/QUOTE] 

I used that scripture to show that God is lord.  That is all.  And I used another to show that there is only 1 Lord. So God is Lord right. But then I used 2 other scriptures that said Jesus is Lord.

I don't have the time to cover the rest of your scripture references right now but the reason I posted the links to my other posts was to show you that those scriptures do not in any way contradict anything you have posted.  Get the picture? [/B]

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I hope that in the next post you actually refute what I have argued for not just say that it is wrong with no reasons behind it or not even addressing my main ponts as in this post. 

 

I know the mistake you are making because it's the same mistake I have always made and that is everytime you see God and Jesus in the same passages right away they are both God!  Why is that?  Because that is what I was always told and never had the courage to challenge it!  Until a brave brother in Christ shared it with me and I was just as upset with him as you are with me.  I'll get back to the rest of your post later this evening.  Have a good one....  [/B]

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please back up your statements against my posts.  This means nothing to me except that you once believed the Truth but then rejected it.

Screamin-GOD-Till-I-Die · Jan 15, 2003

i saw a flower ta-da and thought of a flower

franklin · Jan 15, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Then what does it say?  Do not just sayit does not say or implies what I said it saysor implies.  Prove to me it does not.   At least make a case that it does not.  Just saying it does not does not mean a thing to me. 

It says just what the other scriptures says.  By comparing scripture with scripture and allowing the scripture to be it's own interpretor, let's see what these others have to say about the one you're are asking about OK?  Your selected passage:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now BH, let's proceed on our spiritual journey by comparing scripture with scripture.......

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Note well that this last quotation is Jesus Christ speaking; addressing God in prayer as "the only true God," and speaking of himself as separate from that One True God and sent by Him.

Now BH, by comparing these few scriptures in comparison to yours what does it reveal to you? 

  

 

fieldsofwind · Jan 15, 2003

It reveals exactly what was said in my earlier post. Nothing you claim refutes the stand taken. Christ is God who took off His glory to become man. He became subservient, but was not always subservient. He became flesh, He took the nature of man. By this God who remained in glory became the Father and Christ the Son. Hebrews one explains this very well. The problem for you is that while Christ is obviously subservient, He also holds the glory of God, which is impossible for anything else to have or to have it given. The verses claimed can not be refuted and they disagree with your opinions. However, my posts do not disagree with the verses you post whatsoever. Who is right?

take care

FOW

Blackhawk · Jan 15, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
It says just what the other scriptures says.  By comparing scripture with scripture and allowing the scripture to be it's own interpretor, let's see what these others have to say about the one you're are asking about OK? 

 

Okay as long as you actually answer my question. 

 

Your selected passage:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now BH, let's proceed on our spiritual journey by comparing scripture with scripture.......

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Note well that this last quotation is Jesus Christ speaking; addressing God in prayer as "the only true God," and speaking of himself as separate from that One True God and sent by Him.

Now BH, by comparing these few scriptures in comparison to yours what does it reveal to you?   [/B]

Okay so you will not directly answer my question about the passage.  Okay I will play your game and talk about other passages only.  But are you saying that there is more than one Lord?   

Okay on to the verses. 

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

I have no problem with this verse.  Thereis one God and one mediator Jesus Christ.This does not say that Jesus is not God.

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

   Yes He is one Lord.  Trinitarians do not believe in multiple Gods so I do not see your popint here.  And BTW Trinitarians agree with Jesus' quote of Deuteronomy 6.

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." 

This is by far the best verse you quoted.  Actually I think it is the only verse that gives any concern to a trinitarian. now let's look at this verse with some others around it. 

John 17:1-5

1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(NAU)

So what Jesus was saying is that God is the only true God.  He was not declaring that He was not God.  He was speaking about what his purpose was.  His purpose was to bridge the gap between God and man.  Also look at verse 5.  It is clear by verse 5 that Jesus can't be a mere man because He had glory with God before the world was created.  Notice it does not say that the plan was there before the world was created but that He had the glory then.  Also Jesus just stating that He should be glorified like God and had the same glory as God is a claim of divinity. 

Okay i feel that I have rebutted your arguments that the verses you quoted show that Jesus is not God.  Notice I took your verses head on and commented on them.  I ask you to do the same. Please answer my question about how there can be one Lord and God the Father and Jesus are Lord but Jesus is not God.  How can that be?  BTW I have asked Ed to answer this also but Ed has been MIA since I asked him.

edpobre · Jan 15, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
First lert me quote this verse.

Eph 4:4-6
4 {There is} one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
(NAU)

now you will say like you say above that there is but one Lord and there is one God but the God is God the Father and the Lord is Jesus Christ.  Ahh but that is where I got you.  If you say that then you have a major problem because God is the only Lord.  Look at the many verses below.

Dan 9:3
3 So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek {Him by} prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.
(NAU)

Luke 1:32
32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
(NAU)

Luke 1:68
68 "Blessed {be} the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
(NAU)

Rev 1:8
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
(NAU)

Rev 11:17
17 saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
(NAU)

Rev 15:3
3 And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
(NAU)

Rev 18:8
8 "For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
(NAU)

Rev 22:5
5 And there will no longer be {any} night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
(NAU)

So now Ed if God the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. And there is just one God and one Lord.  And God is Lord then Jesus is God also right?  Or is the Bible really confused and wrong about this? 

Eph. 4:4-6 teaches that there is ONE Lord and there is ONE God the Father. 1 Cor. 8:6 (TEV) teaches that for Christians, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father and ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is CLEAR from these verses alone that although Jesus is the Christian's ONLY  ONE Lord, he is NOT God because the ONLY ONE God is the Father. As every professing Christian knows, Jesus is the SON - NOT the Father.

BEFORE the Christian era, the Jews called the Almighty God, "Lord," "Lord God," or "Lord God Almighty." And that "Lord God" or "Lord God Almighty" was identified as the Father (Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8).

But when the fullness of the time had come, God SENT His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to REDEEM those under the law, that we might receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5).

And God put ALL things under Jesus' feet, and GAVE him to be HEAD over all things to the Church, which is his BODY (Eph. 1:22-23).

And God MADE Jesus "Lord" (Acts 2:36) and GAVE Jesus a NAME ("Christ" - Acts 2:36) which is ABOVE every name (Phil. 2:9) that at the NAME of Jesus (Christ) every knee should bow (Phil. 2:10) and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD  to the GLORY of God the Father (Phil. 2:11).

TRUE Christians have ONLY ONE God and that is the Father . TRUE Christians do NOT call God "LORD." They call God FATHER as INSTRUCTED by Jesus (Mat. 6:9; Matt. 23:10).

For TRUE Christians, there is NO confusion. The Father is the ONLY true God; and the MAN Christ Jesus (the Son of God) is the ONLY ONE Lord.

Ed

edpobre · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." 

This is by far the best verse you quoted.  Actually I think it is the only verse that gives any concern to a trinitarian. now let's look at this verse with some others around it. 

John 17:1-5

1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(NAU)

So what Jesus was saying is that God is the only true God.  He was not declaring that He was not God.

Your statement that "God is the only true God" is FALSE and that is MISLEADING. Jesus is praying to the Father (verse 1) and in verse 3 Jesus tells the Father: "....that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..."

It does NOT need a rocket scientist to undertand that according to Jesus, the Father is the ONLY true God.

Since Jesus is the Son - NOT the Father to whom he is praying, then what he said in the same verse is true - that he was SENT by the ONLY true God, the Father.

Also look at verse 5.  It is clear by verse 5 that Jesus can't be a mere man because He had glory with God before the world was created.  Notice it does not say that the plan was there before the world was created but that He had the glory then. 

Of course, Jesus was NOT a mere MAN but he was NOT God. The Father is the ONLY true God. That he had the glory BEFORE the world was created is true because according to apostle Peter, he was foreordained or chosen in advance before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20).

 Also Jesus just stating that He should be glorified like God and had the same glory as God is a claim of divinity.

Why would anyone THINK that his asking to be glorified by God the Father, is Jesus' way of claiming that he is God, when Jesus had just told the Father that he is the ONLY true God? 

Do you THINK Jesus was only flattering the Father BH? Think again, my friend.

Ed

Blackhawk · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by edpobre
Eph. 4:4-6 teaches that there is ONE Lord and there is ONE God the Father. 1 Cor. 8:6 (TEV) teaches that for Christians, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father and ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is CLEAR from these verses alone that although Jesus is the Christian's ONLY  ONE Lord, he is NOT God because the ONLY ONE God is the Father. As every professing Christian knows, Jesus is the SON - NOT the Father.

BEFORE the Christian era, the Jews called the Almighty God, "Lord," "Lord God," or "Lord God Almighty." And that "Lord God" or "Lord God Almighty" was identified as the Father (Is. 63:16; Is. 64:8).

But when the fullness of the time had come, God SENT His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to REDEEM those under the law, that we might receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5).

And God put ALL things under Jesus' feet, and GAVE him to be HEAD over all things to the Church, which is his BODY (Eph. 1:22-23).

And God MADE Jesus "Lord" (Acts 2:36) and GAVE Jesus a NAME ("Christ" - Acts 2:36) which is ABOVE every name (Phil. 2:9) that at the NAME of Jesus (Christ) every knee should bow (Phil. 2:10) and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD  to the GLORY of God the Father (Phil. 2:11).

TRUE Christians have ONLY ONE God and that is the Father . TRUE Christians do NOT call God "LORD." They call God FATHER as INSTRUCTED by Jesus (Mat. 6:9; Matt. 23:10).

For TRUE Christians, there is NO confusion. The Father is the ONLY true God; and the MAN Christ Jesus (the Son of God) is the ONLY ONE Lord.

Ed

Huh? how is this true when God is called Lord in the gospels and in Revelation which has not come yet?  The Bible in no way says that God is not Lord in the NT or after. 

Luke 1:32
32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
(NAU)

Luke 1:68
68 "Blessed {be} the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
(NAU)

Rev 1:8
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
(NAU)

So is God not a Christian since He calls Himself Lord? 

Rev 15:3
3 And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
(NAU)

Rev 18:8
8 "For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
(NAU)

 Sorry Ed but this makes less sense now than when you begun. 

Blackhawk · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by edpobre
Your statement that "God is the only true God" is FALSE and that is MISLEADING. Jesus is praying to the Father (verse 1) and in verse 3 Jesus tells the Father: "....that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..."

 

God the Father is the only true God.  And so is God the Son.  One substance.  I so not see how Trinitarian belief denies this.   

It does NOT need a rocket scientist to undertand that according to Jesus, the Father is the ONLY true God. [/B]

 

Sure but you forget that God is 3 persons and one substance and that Jesus had a dual nature. (human and divine) Once you take those two facts into the picture then one can understand why Jesus said what He did. 

Since Jesus is the Son - NOT the Father to whom he is praying, then what he said in the same verse is true - that he was SENT by the ONLY true God, the Father. [/B]

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Yes He was sent by God the Father.  So what?   How does that make Him not God? Remember again 3 persons one substance.

Of course, Jesus was NOT a mere MAN but he was NOT God. The Father is the ONLY true God. That he had the glory BEFORE the world was created is true because according to apostle Peter, he was foreordained or chosen in advance before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20). [/B]

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But that is not what He said. He said that HE HAD THE GOLRY BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.  This denotes that He was a being before the world began not that His coming was just foreordained. 

Why would anyone THINK that his asking to be glorified by God the Father, is Jesus' way of claiming that he is God, when Jesus had just told the Father that he is the ONLY true God? [/B]

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Because no one can or should seek after glory for themselves that is reserved for God only.  Our job is to glorify God. Never to seek glory for ourselves.  Also we never will or should think that anyone of us will be glorified the way God is.  To say that without being God is blashphemy and it is a statement of one who wants to be God.  See Jesus was God and was in Heaven fully glorified.  Then He came to earth as the incarnation.  So Jesus was speaking in that verse of the time when He would resume His place in Heaven.   

Do you THINK Jesus was only flattering the Father BH? Think again, my friend.

Ed [/B]

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No. When and how did I ever say that?

franklin · Jan 16, 2003

    Originally posted by Blackhawk
Okay so you will not directly answer my question about the passage.  Okay I will play your game and talk about other passages only.  But are you saying that there is more than one Lord?  

That's why I provided scritpure for you to compare to your favorite trinitarian proof texts in order to answer your questions!  The scripture provides the best answer.  What's your problem?  Because I use scripture to interpret scripture, that's playing a game?  Your means of debating and premise is really not very valid to say the least partner. 

Okay on to the verses. 
1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
I have no problem with this verse.  There is one God and one mediator Jesus Christ.This does not say that Jesus is not God.

You are dead wrong as in BIG TIME! The scripture is explicitly clear that Christ is a man and He is the only mediator between Himself and God!  You are destroying the scriptural picture of who Jesus really is!  I think a child can read this and see that Jesus and God are different! 

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:    Yes He is one Lord.  Trinitarians do not believe in multiple Gods so I do not see your popint here.  And BTW Trinitarians agree with Jesus' quote of Deuteronomy 6.

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This passage is referring to God and God alone!  It's very clear.  Wheater you want to believe it or not, if you believe in this strange doctrine that is exactly what you are believing in, multiple gods! 

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."  This is by far the best verse you quoted.  Actually I think it is the only verse that gives any concern to a trinitarian. now let's look at this verse with some others around it. 

Click to expand...

Why do you think this verse is better than any others I've posted and why is this the only verse that gives any concern to a trinitarian?  The bible is full of them and I have posted more then enough to prove the point that the trinity is false. 
BH, this is all I have time for right now, I'll get into Jn 17 later, got to get back to the rock pile at my job !

Blackhawk · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
That's why I provided scritpure for you to compare to your favorite trinitarian proof texts in order to answer your questions!  The scripture provides the best answer.  What's your problem?  Because I use scripture to interpret scripture, that's playing a game?  Your means of debating and premise is really not very valid to say the least partner. 

I have no problem with you using scripture but you do not answer my questions.  You just post scripture that then I have to explain but never answer my direct questions.  Okay I will ask 1 more time.  If scripture says God is the only God and jesus is the only Lord and many times throughout scripture it says Lord God then how can Jesus not be God?  How is my comclusion wrong?  I am looking for something like "You are wrong because scripture does not Jesus is Lord" or something like that.  Oh and BTW I do not think I have ever used these scriptures to prove Jesus' divinity.  Ed gave me them when he posted.  So they are not my favorite trinitarian proof texts. 

You are dead wrong as in BIG TIME! The scripture is explicitly clear that Christ is a man and He is the only mediator between Himself and God!  You are destroying the scriptural picture of who Jesus really is!  I think a child can read this and see that Jesus and God are different!  [/B]

Jesus Christ was a man and He was the only mediator between God and man.  Trinitarians have no problem with this.  They believe in the incarnation and Jesus' peurpose forcoming to earth.

This passage is referring to God and God alone!  It's very clear.  Wheater you want to believe it or not, if you believe in this strange doctrine that is exactly what you are believing in, multiple gods!  [/B]

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Huh? how did you know that Jesus was just speaking abotu God the Father?  Jesus did not say that.  I think you are reading things into this passage that you have leared from other passages.  But this pasage alone says nothing about Jesus speaking about God the Father alone. Also the doctrine of the Trinity is very clear and precise in its language so that it is not speaking about ultiple gods.  Please do not accuse me of believeing in something that I don't. 

Why do you think this verse is better than any others I've posted and why is this the only verse that gives any concern to a trinitarian? [/B]

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This verse is better because by itself it seems to actually go against trinitarian beliefs while the others did not.  same answer for your second question. 

 

The bible is full of them and I have posted more then enough to prove the point that the trinity is false. 
BH, this is all I have time for right now, I'll get into Jn 17 later, got to get back to the rock pile at my job !    [/B]

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I have not seen ay that prove the Trinity false. 

franklin · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
If scripture says God is the only God and jesus is the only Lord and many times throughout scripture it says Lord God then how can Jesus not be God?  How is my comclusion wrong?  I am looking for something like "You are wrong because scripture does not Jesus is Lord" or something like that. 

Let me see if I can explain something to you, however, the feeling I get from this discussion is that no matter how much convincing proof I show you either with explanation and/or scripture, your still going to cling to your belief in the trinity.  I'll give you an explanation and some scripture that might shed some light on the subject. Just because Jesus is referred to as Lord, scripture is not making Him equal with God.  I think what you are doing is confusing LORD with Lord.  Do you see the difference?  Here is an example:  Psalm 110: 1 - 4: "The LORD (YHWH) says to my Lord" (adoni).  Adoni, means sovereign, Lord, and master. It is definitely not to be confused with adonai, which the Jews substituted for YHWH when they read the Scriptures. Whenever LORD is in caps it always refers to YHWH.... Jesus is never referred to as YHWH (adonai)

Jesus Christ was a man and He was the only mediator between God and man.  Trinitarians have no problem with this.  They believe in the incarnation and Jesus' peurpose forcoming to earth.

You keep using trinitarian terms that are not scriptural, "incarnation" etc, Christ was created/begotten by God's power spirit in the virgin womb of Mary.  He did not exist before He was conceived.  Jesus started to exist when He was conceived and born just like every other human being.  That is how He came to earth and it is spelled out in scripture. 

Gotta run BH .... I'll get with ya later and I hope I've answered your questions.

  

 

Blackhawk · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by franklin
Let me see if I can explain something to you, however, the feeling I get from this discussion is that no matter how much convincing proof I show you either with explanation and/or scripture, your still going to cling to your belief in the trinity. 

 

Probably but I am open to any truth if it is true. 

 I'll give you an explanation and some scripture that might shed some light on the subject. Just because Jesus is referred to as Lord, scripture is not making Him equal with God.  I think what you are doing is confusing LORD with Lord.   [/B]

 

Okay please explain. 

 

Do you see the difference?  Here is an example:  Psalm 110: 1 - 4: "The LORD (YHWH) says to my Lord" (adoni).  Adoni, means sovereign, Lord, and master. It is definitely not to be confused with adonai, which the Jews substituted for YHWH when they read the Scriptures. [/B]

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Okay it is a verse speaking most likely about the Messiah.  But this is not a verse that I was questioning and it is in the OT and thus in Hebrew.  What makes the greek word mean the same as this hebrew word?  Here is the word. 

2962  kurios (koo'-ree-os);

from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title):

KJV-- God, Lord, master, Sir.

So you are sontending that Jesus is the one Lord (Kurios) and God is God.  Right?  But wait God the Father is also called Lord (Kurios) so that can't be.  So Jesus was called Lord in the same way that God was called Lord in other verses but in xome that I quoted there is only 1 Lord. (Kurios)  So it seems clear that Jesus is God. 

here are some verses to back up my claim.  There were many many more.  It seems that Kurios is used many many times to refer to God the Father and God the Son. 

Luke 1:16
16 "And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God.
(NAU)

Luke 1:32
32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
(NAU)

John 9:38
38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.
(NAU)

Acts 2:39
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
(NAU)

Oh and here are some places I believe that it LORD is used to speak about Jesus.

Matt 4:7
7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, "YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST."'
(NAU)

Jesus was the one being tempted.  Hmmm. 

Rev 19:13-16
13 {He is} clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white {and} clean, were following Him on white horses.
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
(NAU)

Jesus is the Word of God and this is also further proof that the Word is a person and not what your friend said. 

Oh and BTW I still have all of my trinitarian proof texts to fall back upon.   John 1 pretty much sums it up while this is just supporting evidence.  You know you never got back to me why I should of not considered the context of how "Word" was used at that time and instead take that guys (forget his name) version of what it shoud be translated as. 

 

You keep using trinitarian terms that are not scriptural, "incarnation" etc, Christ was created/begotten by God's power spirit in the virgin womb of Mary.  He did not exist before He was conceived.  Jesus started to exist when He was conceived and born just like every other human being.  That is how He came to earth and it is spelled out in scripture.  [/B]

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I used those terms on purpose.  The terms themselves are not found in scripture but denote what is taught in scripture. 

John 8:58
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
(NAU)

John 8:58
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
(NAU)

John 1:1-2
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
(NAU)

Gotta run BH .... I'll get with ya later and I hope I've answered your questions.

  

  [/B][/QUOTE]

edpobre · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk

Originally posted by edpobre For TRUE Christians, there is NO confusion. The Father is the ONLY true God; and the MAN Christ Jesus (the Son of God) is the ONLY ONE Lord.

Ed

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Huh? how is this true when God is called Lord in the gospels and in Revelation which has not come yet?  The Bible in no way says that God is not Lord in the NT or after.

Are you questioning the word of God BH?  Apostle Paul says there is ONLY ONE God, the Father and ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).

Luke 1:32
32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
(NAU)

Luke 1:68
68 "Blessed {be} the Lord God of Israel, for He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
(NAU)

Rev 1:8
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
(NAU)

So is God not a Christian since He calls Himself Lord? 

Obviously you don't know what a Christian is. Why should God be a Christian? A Christian is a DISCIPLE of Christ because the DISCIPLES  were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26).

The angel who spoke in Luke 1:32 is NOT a Christian and neither was Zacarias who spoke in Luke 1:68.

Rev 15:3
3 And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! (NAU)

This song was sang AFTER Judgment Day and AFTER Jesus SUBJECTED himself  to God (1 Cor. 15:28). At this time, God is once again Lord of Lords.

Rev 18:8
8 "For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong. (NAU)

 Sorry Ed but this makes less sense now than when you begun. 

The one who said this (Rev. 18:8) is an Israelite who belonged to ancient Israel whose Lord is God .

Ed

Warrior FC · Jan 16, 2003

Again I must say...

EVERYTHING JESUS IS, HIS NAME, TITLE, ALL OF HIS AUTHORITY, HIS POSITION, HIS EQUALITY WITH GOD, AND EVEN HIM BEING "CALLED" MIGHTY GOD, SAVIOR, COUNCELOR, HELPER, THE CHRIST, ETC.....

WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD WHO IS THE FATHER (THE "ONLY" TRUE GOD!)

edpobre · Jan 16, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk

Originally posted by edpobre
Your statement that "God is the only true God" is FALSE and that is MISLEADING. Jesus is praying to the Father (verse 1) and in verse 3 Jesus tells the Father: "....that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God..." 

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God the Father is the only true God.  And so is God the Son.  One substance.  I so not see how Trinitarian belief denies this.

That's ABSURD BH! If Jesus was what you say he is (God the Son/one substance), why didn't he say to the Father, "that they may know US the ONLY true God?" Why did Jesus say, "that they may know YOU, the ONLY rue God?"

It does NOT need a rocket scientist to undertand that according to Jesus, the Father is the ONLY true God.

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Sure but you forget that God is 3 persons and one substance and that Jesus had a dual nature. (human and divine) Once you take those two facts into the picture then one can understand why Jesus said what He did. 

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It is NOT true that what you are saying are FACTS.

The Bible is the SOLE basis for Christian faith. And the Bible does NOT teach that God is 3 persons and one substance and Jesus has a dual nature (human and divine). This is ONLY a man-made CONCLUSION based on TWISTED interpretation of some verses.

Thus, what Jesus said about the Father being the ONLY true God CANNOT be affected by a FALSE conclusion based on TWISTED interpretation of some verses.

 

[Since Jesus is the Son - NOT the Father to whom he is praying, then what he said in the same verse is true - that he was SENT by the ONLY true God, the Father

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Yes He was sent by God the Father.  So what?   How does that make Him not God? Remember again 3 persons one substance.

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As I said, John 17:3  CANNOT be affected by a FALSE conclusion based on TWISTED interpretation of some verses.

Of course, Jesus was NOT a mere MAN but he was NOT God. The Father is the ONLY true God. That he had the glory BEFORE the world was created is true because according to apostle Peter, he was foreordained or chosen in advance before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:20).

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But that is not what He said. He said that HE HAD THE GOLRY BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN.  This denotes that He was a being before the world began not that His coming was just foreordained.

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Again, you are making a CONCLUSION based on your TWISTED interpretation of what Jesus SAID. Sure, Jesus said he had glory before the world began, but that does NOT denote that he was a being before the world began.

Jesus RECEIVED glory when God FOREORDAINED him just as much as Jesus "RECEIVED from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to him from the Excellent Glory: 'This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased" (2 Peter 1:17-18).

Why would anyone THINK that his asking to be glorified by God the Father, is Jesus' way of claiming that he is God, when Jesus had just told the Father that he is the ONLY true God? 

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Because no one can or should seek after glory for themselves that is reserved for God only.  Our job is to glorify God. Never to seek glory for ourselves.  Also we never will or should think that anyone of us will be glorified the way God is.  To say that without being God is blashphemy and it is a statement of one who wants to be God.  See Jesus was God and was in Heaven fully glorified.  Then He came to earth as the incarnation.  So Jesus was speaking in that verse of the time when He would resume His place in Heaven. 

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This is ABSURD BH. IF Jesus were claiming to be God by asking to be glorified by God, wouldn't it have been much simpler if he outrightly SAID in verse 3 that "he and the Father are the ONLY true God?"

Do you THINK Jesus was only flattering the Father BH? Think again, my friend.

Ed

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No. When and how did I ever say that?

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You say that in verse 5, Jesus was CLAIMING to be God just AFTER he said to the Father, "YOU, the ONLY true God" (John 17:3). Why would you think that BH if you didn't think that Jesus was only flattering the Father?

Ed

fieldsofwind · Jan 16, 2003

posted by edpobre: "This song was sang AFTER Judgment Day and AFTER Jesus SUBJECTED himself to God (1 Cor. 15:28). At this time, God is once again Lord of Lords."

He always has been, and always will be. Christ is the Lord--The entire reason you see Him as subservient is because He is God who became flesh--became subservient. It was not always so. This cannot be refutted by anything in the word of God. No one has yet refutted my earlier post with scripture, and no one will. Oh yea... and that verse in Cor. doesn't say that "God is once again LORD OF LORDS-- it says "so that God may be all in all."--in other words--complete again. God doesn't give away the title of LORD OF LORDS anyways... He promises He won't.

posted by WFC: "EVERYTHING JESUS IS, HIS NAME, TITLE, ALL OF HIS AUTHORITY, HIS POSITION, HIS EQUALITY WITH GOD, AND EVEN HIM BEING "CALLED" MIGHTY GOD, SAVIOR, COUNCELOR, HELPER, THE CHRIST, ETC..... WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD WHO IS THE FATHER (THE "ONLY" TRUE GOD"

Isaiah 42:8-- "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give my glory to another,"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christ is God who became flesh. When He became flesh... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9. ---------->God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent. However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love. Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God... (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice) But as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect.

So... here are some points for those claiming that Christ is not God who became subservient, and is now glorified again after defeating death. (He is God, just to make sure folks know what I'm saying here)

First of all... you have verses where Christ possesses the title KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. Yet... God will not give His glory to another, (Isaiah 42:8), so how is it that Christ would have this title if He was not God? Also... the verse referring to Christ as the Lord of Glory... how do you explain that one?

Secondly... you have the debate over John 1. Some here assume that the Word came into a man... yet that is not what it says. The Bible says that the Word was God. It does not say it was an idea or some metaphysical entity. The Bible clearly, clearly says that the Word was God, period. Then... it says the Word became flesh... not came into someone's flesh. here is a refresher reading for you: (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ------> (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Thirdly... we have the following verses: (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living.--------> These verses clearly explain who had to die: The One who made the will (covenant). It is obvious... yet some do not believe... they say... what? What do you say?

Next we have these verses: (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son: today I have become your Father. Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:10 He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. (Notice at the beginning of this God says TODAY I have become your Father indicating that He wasnt always while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End indicating the claim I AM)-------> Now... what do you guys have to say about this one? Is it a "bad" translation? Nope... God's word is truth... I believe it. If you believe that the new translations can be erroneous, then what is to keep the old ones from being skewed as well? (I'll give you a hint... God!!!) These verses, once again, portray Christ as was explained at the beginning of the post. He is God who became flesh... "today I have become your Father." The Father says of the Son: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever".

Here's another one: (Colossians 2:9)For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form-----------> Pretty self-explanitory isn't it?

How about this: (Acts 3:15)--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?) Once again... we have a verse indicating that Christ is the author of life... the creator... etc... like John 1... like Hebrews chapter 1.

Here you go: (Jude 1:4)-- "They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Pretty explicit about that "only Sovereign and Lord huh.)-------> What do you guys have to say about this one... isn't God our only Sovereign? Our ONLY Lord it claims... hmmm.... pretty powerful isn't it!

And finally... (at least for this post)... (Titus 2:13)--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

Need I say more about this last one? (Purify for HIMSELF... not someone else)

Believe

FOW

MizDoulos · Jan 17, 2003

The insults and bickering have gone on much too long, and no one is going to change anyone else's mind. Besides, the thread is 26 pages long and the original questions have been sufficiently discussed.

Was Jesus God or the Son of God?

Monkey Boy

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