Romans 9

cygnusx1

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He does, His elect that were chosen in Christ.

sure , and Isaac and Jacob were Abrahams flesh children !

God is as much concerned with our offspring (maybe more so) than even we are :)

didn't Abraham have great affection for his family , even his nephew Lot ?

didn't God show even more care than Abraham ?

The Lord knows what is very important to us , although having a child brought up in the faith is no gurantee of salvation (Romans 9) .... we have every reason to trust the Lord loves and does save many a child born into a Christian home ... God loves to bless familes .

for the fathers sakes they are beloved , even though they are "enemies of the Gospel" ..

3 elections

Personal election = Romans 9

election to office = Paul called to be an Apostle

Election of a nation - Israel


"The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; and He repays those who hate Him to their face, to destroy them. He will not be slack with him who hates Him; He will repay him to his face" (Deut. 7:7-10).

those who resist God and perish cannot in anyway undermine God's faithfulness from generation to generation .

"And He will love you and bless you and multiply you; He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your land… the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flock, in the land of which He swore to your fathers to give you. You shall be blessed above all peoples" (Deut. 7:13-14).


"Nevertheless the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam, but the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loves you" (Deut. 23:5).

Israels sin cannot undo God's love !!

"Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; For I am the Lord their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the Lord" (Lev. 26:44-45).
 
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beloved57

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sure , and Isaac and Jacob were Abrahams flesh children !


So was Ishmael and Esau, but they were not Children of Promise, of the election of Grace. Being born merely Physical descendants of Abraham, and thats all, then you are not the Children of God. Rom 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 
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cygnusx1

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So was Ishmael and Esau, but they were not Children of Promise, of the election of Grace. Being born merely Physical descendants of Abraham, and thats all, then you are not the Children of God. Rom 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

yes , national election doesn't guarantee salvation , but you know that 'cus I already told you a dozen times .

OFTEN the children of God ARE NOT MERELY SPIRITUAL descendants of Abraham , many are physical sons , hence the promise remains .

Romans 9 is not Romans 11 , Paul is not needlesly repeating himself , he moved on two whole chapters , tell me how can the "remnant" be grafted back into the vine ? are they also stumbled but not fallen ? then if not the remnant who ? :)
 
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Arc

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does it ever occur to you why God always saves a remnant of Israel , He doesn't treat others the same way !

I disagree. When God led the children of Israel out of Egypt they were a mixed multitude (Exodus 12:38). God made a covenant with all these people. He considered them one. People could later convert and become part of Israel. The Church is the same way. One body consisting of Jew & Gentile. Any promise to Israel includes believing Gentiles as well.

Romans 9 is not Romans 11 , Paul is not needlesly repeating himself , he moved on two whole chapters

Paul didn't write chapters. Chapter divisions were added later. The issue brought up in Romans 9 continues through chapters 10 & 11. It's one continuous logical argument. It all stands together.
 
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cygnusx1

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The prophecies of those that will come against Israel in the last days, and that God Himself will intervene, who do you believe those prophecies are toward, regarding Israel, if the nation is not intended?


Iceland ? :p
 
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cygnusx1

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I disagree. When God led the children of Israel out of Egypt they were a mixed multitude (Exodus 12:38). God made a covenant with all these people. He considered them one. People could later convert and become part of Israel. The Church is the same way. One body consisting of Jew & Gentile. Any promise to Israel includes believing Gentiles as well.

If God considered them one (He did) then His love over Israel does not and cannot change , they are beloved for the father's sake.

Gentiles are spiritual Jews grafted into Israel , the Israel of God , the New Jerusalem :)

my tyres needed changing the other day , the old tyres were cast away NOT the car , the car remained .



Paul didn't write chapters. Chapter divisions were added later. The issue brought up in Romans 9 continues through chapters 10 & 11. It's one continuous logical argument. It all stands together.
Irrelevant , we still have chapters , and Paul has moved on 2 chapters , there is simply no need for Paul to repeat himself , what he said about personal election in Romans 9 is in no need of repetition , Romans 10 deals with Israels responsibility , Romans 11 deals with the nations future , God can graft them back in , they have "stumbled" not fallen , if God unconditionally loves Israel , and the OT is repleat with evidence proving this is the case , then there is no way God is going to change and be less merciful , less loving , less concerned , less gracious now that Christ has come than before ..... Jesus said the Gentiles time would be limited , and so did Paul.

Paul wept over the Jews , as did Christ , pointless if they have no future , but the Lord revealed to Paul that they indeed do have a future , a saved one.

God doesn't just cast away a bride and say "buisness as usual" "it's just a divorce , they happen all the time " ..... you will be telling me He casts away the church next .
 
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AndOne

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hi Dave , the truth is nobody can be saved without faith , and none can be saved who have never heard the Gospel (Rom 10)

some assume , wrongly , that the Lord must have to save all Jews for the nation to be saved , such is not the case .

How do we know God treats Israel differently to the other nations ? scripture says "unless the Lord had granted us Jews children , we would have fared just like Sodom and Gomorrah" ... God granted the Jews a posterity out of Covenant love inspite of her sin.

God no more has to save every Jew in order to save Israel , than the Lord has to save every person in order to save the world ; if one saw a species under threat of extinction one merely has to save some of that species in order to save that species .

Christ died for the world (all nations) and Christ saved the world .

I think it is often taken for granted that only a few Jews are saved and the majority are hardened and lost , I think , given the entire period of history , including their restoration , it will be the reverse ; therefore the nation "all Israel" shall be saved .

God covenanted with the Israelites granting unto them far more than any other nation , His love for her cannot end. see Hosea
Thanks for clarifying, Cyg -
 
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beloved57

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cyg:

yes , national election doesn't guarantee salvation

The election of grace within the nation was not a physical Nation but a Spiritual Nation, it was the small remnant within the Physical Nation.

Thats why Paul says in rom 9:

rom 9:


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Spiritual and Remnant], which are of Israel[National]:

God only has one Israel, thats Spiritual, the seed of Faith. All of Abraham's physical Children of National Israel were not God's children anymore than the inhabitants of sodom and gommorah were His Children.

rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

OFTEN the children of God ARE NOT MERELY SPIRITUAL

Yes they are, there is no evidence of any being a Child of God lest by Faith in Christ Gal 3:

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

If you think that does not apply to physical Jews you are in deep error friend.

The Fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were Physical Jews who were Children of God by Faith in Christ Jesus, and its only their seed that follow's that same Faith that inherit the Abrahamic Promises, regardless of race.



 
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cygnusx1

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cyg:



The election of grace within the nation was not a physical Nation but a Spiritual Nation, it was the small remnant within the Physical Nation.

Thats why Paul says in rom 9:

rom 9:


6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel[Spiritual and Remnant], which are of Israel[National]:

God only has one Israel, thats Spiritual, the seed of Faith. All of Abraham's physical Children of National Israel were not God's children anymore than the inhabitants of sodom and gommorah were His Children.

rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Yes they are, there is no evidence of any being a Child of God lest by Faith in Christ Gal 3:

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

If you think that does not apply to physical Jews you are in deep error friend.

The Fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were Physical Jews who were Children of God by Faith in Christ Jesus, and its only their seed that follow's that same Faith that inherit the Abrahamic Promises, regardless of race.






if it's all regardless of race , then Paul made a blunder in mentioning his family tribe .

Paul didn't make a blunder , God has not cast away , cut off , or divorced His beloved Israel , God's love is unconditional .

You cannot grasp the future hope for Israel when the full number of the Gentiles come in the full circle shall be complete .

the remnant are no replacement for God's plan for the nation , they are a temporary and instrumentally necessary blessing .

my tyres needed changing the other day , the old tyres were cast away NOT the car , the car remained .
 
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Arc

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If God considered them one (He did) then His love over Israel does not and cannot change , they are beloved for the father's sake.

Then why did He cast cast them (unbelieving Israel) off? Why did God throw them out of the land if there are no conditions to God's promise?
 
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cygnusx1

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Then why did He cast cast them (unbelieving Israel) off? Why did God throw them out of the land if there are no conditions to God's promise?

read Romans 11

you think God has cast off His people even after Paul asks the same question and replies "God forbid" .
 
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Arc

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read Romans 11

you think God has cast off His people even after Paul asks the same question and replies "God forbid" .

You didn't answer the question.

And Paul did indeed say some were cast off:

For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

I'm using Paul's own words. So I'll ask again, How is it that God can throw Israel out of the land (even temporarily) if in fact the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional?

By the way, after Paul said "God forbid" he said:

God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. But the rest of Israel were cast away:


What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
 
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cygnusx1

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You didn't answer the question.

And Paul did indeed say some were cast off:

For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

you are doing what I saw another poster do about 9 -12 Months ago (an Armininan) confusing the nation with a part of it , look at the context "at the present time Israel in large part are hardened though by no means every Jew , yet the future is the reverse "their acceptance doesn't mean the ones cut off , it means the nation as an entity .

I'm using Paul's own words. So I'll ask again, How is it that God can throw Israel out of the land (even temporarily) if in fact the Abrahamic covenant is unconditional?

because some , though by no means all promises have stipulations attatched . God's love over Israel is unconditional , He promised that He would gather them up from the nations He had scattered them and bring them back to the "promised land" , God keeps His word.

By the way, after Paul said "God forbid" he said:

God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. But the rest of Israel were cast away:

1. God's foreknowing is God's foreloving
2. God foreknew the nation as one man
3. God has not done what many affirm , He has NOT cast away Israel
4. Some are cast away , these are branches not the vine.
5. The nation is hardened for a set time and only in part.


What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Paul is again using the term Israel in a general sense , not every Jew rejected Christ , the NT Church was first of all a JEWISH Church , Gentiles were added. There is an election within an election.
 
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Arc

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you are doing what I saw another poster do about 9 -12 Months ago (an Armininan) confusing the nation with a part of it , look at the context "at the present time Israel in large part are hardened though by no means every Jew , yet the future is the reverse their acceptance doesn't mean the ones cut off , it means the nation as an entity
I'm quoting Paul, I didn't even give commentary and you are arguing. But ask yourself, who are you arguing against? I quoted a statement made by Paul and you say I'm confusing Israel the nation with part of it. I never said every Jew, nor did I say all Israel was cast off. You are responding to things I never mentioned.
because some , though by no means all promises have stipulations attatched . God's love over Israel is unconditional
I realize you believe this, but I'm not sure scripture teaches this. My question still stands. If God's love for Israel is without condition(s), then why did God cast them out of the land?
He promised that He would gather them up from the nations He had scattered them and bring them back to the promised land
Can you provide a scripture reference for this promise to gather them back to the promised land?
Paul is again using the term Israel in a general sense , not every Jew rejected Christ , the NT Church was first of all a JEWISH Church , Gentiles were added. There is an election within an election.
I agree. So which elect obtained it?
 
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Arc

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yet the future is the reverse their acceptance doesn't mean the ones cut off , it means the nation as an entity

It doesn't? So the nation as an entity needs to come to acceptance? I thought you said not all are unbelievers? Yet it is stated the ones cut off will be grafted in again: how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Seems to be a straightforward reading of the text.
 
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cygnusx1

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It doesn't? So the nation as an entity needs to come to acceptance? I thought you said not all are unbelievers? Yet it is stated the ones cut off will be grafted in again: how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Seems to be a straightforward reading of the text.

those cut off are vessels of wrath , there is no future for Judas Ciaphas Dathan etc in getting back into Israel , [21] For if God spared not the natural branches,

the ones grafted back in are ;

the nation viewed as an entity , it suffered , in part and for a set time a Divine hardening not a complete fall , and certainly not a divorce or cut off ..... the ones cut off are destroyed but the vine remains and so does God's covenant over Israel regardless of chastening.

The scriptures can see and do see groups as entities without being every person in that group .

therefore it remains clear those branches cut off are not the same as the nation

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

which was hardened and is coming to an end of hardening , the Spirits outreach to Gentiles will end soon.
 
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cygnusx1

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I'm quoting Paul, I didn't even give commentary and you are arguing. But ask yourself, who are you arguing against? I quoted a statement made by Paul and you say I'm confusing Israel the nation with part of it. I never said every Jew, nor did I say all Israel was cast off. You are responding to things I never mentioned. I realize you believe this, but I'm not sure scripture teaches this. My question still stands. If God's love for Israel is without condition(s), then why did God cast them out of the land? Can you provide a scripture reference for this promise to gather them back to the promised land? I agree. So which elect obtained it?


because God loves a people don't assume He will not discipline them , being scattered across the earth was a Divine recurrent discipline , but look they are back in the land today ..... God keeps His promises .

“After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time – if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God and provoking Him to anger, I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the Lord will drive you.”
~ Deuteronomy 4:25-27

... they did not believe His promise ... and did not obey the Lord. So He swore to them with uplifted hand that He would ... scatter them throughout the lands.
~ Psalms 106:24-27

(See also Leviticus 26:14-33; Deuteronomy 28:58-67)



what about after the New Testament ?

Luke 21:24
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Revelation 11:2
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Romans 11:25
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 
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Arc

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those cut off are vessels of wrath , there is no future for Judas Ciaphas Dathan etc in getting back into Israel , [21] For if God spared not the natural branches,

That is not what Paul said:

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Your quote is ripped from it's context.

the ones grafted back in are ;

the nation viewed as an entity , it suffered , in part and for a set time a Divine hardening not a complete fall , and certainly not a divorce or cut off ..... the ones cut off are destroyed but the vine remains and so does God's covenant over Israel regardless of chastening.

Again, this is not what Paul says. Natural (Jewish) branches were broken off the olive tree, as you said yourself the whole root/tree is not cut off. This is true. So you cannot turn around and say the branches broken off are the whole nation viewed as an entity. :)
Also, I've already quoted Paul where he states they can be grafted in again, contrary to what you have said.

Nor does this work with the idea that God promised the land unconditionally but then threw them out because of their rebellion.

The scriptures can see and do see groups as entities without being every person in that group.

therefore it remains clear those branches cut off are not the same as the nation

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

which was hardened and is coming to an end of hardening , the Spirits outreach to Gentiles will end soon.

And where do we read that the Spirit's outreach to the Gentiles will end?


because God loves a people don't assume He will not discipline them , being scattered across the earth was a Divine recurrent discipline , but look they are back in the land today ..... God keeps His promises .

“After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time – if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the Lord your God and provoking Him to anger, I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed. The Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the Lord will drive you.”
~ Deuteronomy 4:25-27

... they did not believe His promise ... and did not obey the Lord. So He swore to them with uplifted hand that He would ... scatter them throughout the lands.
~ Psalms 106:24-27

(See also Leviticus 26:14-33; Deuteronomy 28:58-67)



what about after the New Testament ?

Luke 21:24
(24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Revelation 11:2
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Romans 11:25
(25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

First, Romans 11:25 only speaks of all Israel being saved. It mentions nothing about returning to the land. They don't need to return to the land to be saved. They can be saved anywhere.

Second, your appeal to Luke 21:24 has problems. First of all is it's parallel that you correctly cite, Revelation 11:2 says the land will be trampled for 42 months. If you are saying the land has been trodden by the Gentiles for nearly 2000 years then i'd say 42 months has long passed. I believe this passage is relating to the destruction of Jerusalem in the Jewish war from 66.5-70AD, a war that lasted 42 months.

If your view is the 42 months is still future, then the Gentiles have not even begun to trample it yet. Nor does mentioning the Gentiles mean all Gentiles, since some have been grafted onto the Olive tree which is Israel. Which is what is meant by "the fullness of the Gentiles coming in" coming into Israel, the olive tree. Un-natural branches grafted onto the "natural" olive tree Israel.
 
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cygnusx1

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That is not what Paul said:

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Your quote is ripped from it's context.



Again, this is not what Paul says. Natural (Jewish) branches were broken off the olive tree, as you said yourself the whole root/tree is not cut off. This is true. So you cannot turn around and say the branches broken off are the whole nation viewed as an entity. :)
Also, I've already quoted Paul where he states they can be grafted in again, contrary to what you have said.

Nor does this work with the idea that God promised the land unconditionally but then threw them out because of their rebellion.



And where do we read that the Spirit's outreach to the Gentiles will end?




First, Romans 11:25 only speaks of all Israel being saved. It mentions nothing about returning to the land. They don't need to return to the land to be saved. They can be saved anywhere.

Second, your appeal to Luke 21:24 has problems. First of all is it's parallel that you correctly cite, Revelation 11:2 says the land will be trampled for 42 months. If you are saying the land has been trodden by the Gentiles for nearly 2000 years then i'd say 42 months has long passed. I believe this passage is relating to the destruction of Jerusalem in the Jewish war from 66.5-70AD, a war that lasted 42 months.

If your view is the 42 months is still future, then the Gentiles have not even begun to trample it yet. Nor does mentioning the Gentiles mean all Gentiles, since some have been grafted onto the Olive tree which is Israel. Which is what is meant by "the fullness of the Gentiles coming in" coming into Israel, the olive tree. Un-natural branches grafted onto the "natural" olive tree Israel.


so you think those cut off can be grafted back in ?

there is hope for all those OT rebels like Dathan then ........ you think to see Judas in Glory ?

of course you don't !

what is cut off is not the nation , it is not a question of regrafting the nation , those who are regrafted are future Jews who are converted from dead orthodoxy to Christ (Bob Dylan etc)

The land is granted by promise (no time limit) this doesn't mean an illimination of chastisement , God grants you fellowship , the fact is when you sin you lose fellowship with God .

regarding weeks and prophecy do some googling you will discover numbers are often symbolic , furthermore how long did Israel wander ?

weeks days Months or years :)
 
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