Did Jesus Christ die for ALL men, or only the few?

Hammster said:

Are all men saved? Do all men come to the knowledge of the truth? No. But since that's all you can focus on, those verses out of context that you think support your view, then you are left with God not able to accomplish what He desires. But if you'd look at all of Scripture, you'd see that God has always had an elect, called out group that He has saved. The OT atonement wasn't for everyone. And neither is the NT atonement. Quoting verses out of context doesn't change that.

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keep it up bro !

they will just repeat all the atonement does is make salvation possible if men say yes to it , they will continue to reduce the work of Christ to nothing more than a universal opportunity , they will repeat it makes man salvable but doesn't save anyone !

the concept that the death of Christ makes salvation within reach of all men is obliterated by the truth none can be saved without hearing (or reading) the Gospel and millions have never even heard the Gosel .... it's no good having a universal opportunity that is reduced to a limited opportunity , salvation is only possible if one hears the Gospel (Romans 10) .

have a great week bro

Hammster,

If Jesus took the punishment for all people, then what is Hell for?

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very simple for those who reject the offer of communion with Him.

The punishment was death. Christ overcame death for every man. No man will die a permanent physical death. We will all live immortally, incorruptible and eternally. The sentence of death upon Adam precluded this ever taking place.

Christ freed mankind from that bondage to death and the resultant sins. Now each and every human being is no longer under the condemnation of Adam. Christ is the Second Adam for a reason, though your theology does not recognize that aspect.

Now that mankind has an eternal existance again by Christ's resurrection, He is also going to be held accountable. He can no longer blame Adam for the sentence of death. He now has the obligation to give God and active answer of what he will do with the call God gives to every single soul.

It is why God can call all men, why God can hold every soul accountable, why there will be a judgement. Heaven and hell were created only because Christ reversed the fall. Without Christ overcoming death, we would simply be dissolved in death. We would cease existing as a human beings. There is no need to have a heaven and hell if we all simply die, dust to dust. Gen 3:19. Why is this so hard to understand?

Hammster said:

If Jesus took the punishment for all people, then what is Hell for?

Forum Runner goes to 11.

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"for those who reject Him" .... but that is a sin , therefore what can be the ground of condemnation if Christ died for everymans every sin ?

How can anyone think it just for God to visit the same sin with wrath twice , first upon Christ at the cross and then upon those sentenced to hell ? First upon Christ then once again upon sinners ?

The ground for condemnation is either fully cleared for ever or it is not , either the atonement answers the condemnation for sin or men sentenced to condemnation do , it cannot be both , the ground for condemnation cannot be the ground for salvation.

If Christ died for every person then all men would be elect , and all men would die with Christ , all men would die in and be raised with and be seated on High with Christ , such is not the case , it is believers and these only who are united in His death and hid with Him in the heavelies , such is the case that even the 'emblems' of His death , the bread and wine , are NOT given to any other than God's people , it is not for unbelievers for it does not belong to them.

If the emblems are restricted to the household of faith how much more the things that they signify.

Hebrews 9

[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

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the sins of many , many is not everyone.

Heb.10

[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

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only worshippers purged .

[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

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the body prepared for Christ includes believers and only believers .

[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

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we , the children of God are those sanctified through the body of Jesus Christ , the world is not sanctified.

[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

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these enemies are to be made a footstool not a vessel of mercy .

[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

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again this excludes all men .

[15] Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

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yet again this is these who belong to the household of faith , the rest of the world He will remember their sins .

[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

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brethren , not the world.

[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

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it is clear we have a High Priest , Jesus , who is over the house of God , ie, it is the house of God that Christ represents , His work on the cross and His work of intercession are singularly for the house of God , the world is under Satan , the Church is under Christ.

billy:

Jesus Christ died for all,

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Sure all of His Sheep..

bp:

By doing what Jesus did, he gave the opportunity for all to be saved.

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No, God sent Him to seek and to save that which was Lost lk 19 :


10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Not give opportunity to be saved. If Jesus does not seek and save all the Lost God wants saved, He has failed.

Beloved57,

Jesus died for all

your response.....

Sure all of His Sheep..

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If Christ only died and redeemed His Sheep, then no sheep were actually saved. His Sheep as per scripture became His Sheep by virture of belief in Him.

Per Scripture those you call His Sheep, are still under the condemnation of Adam- death. Your theology has no provision in it for Christ to overcome the fall. It's as if the fall never happened in your view.

Christ did not save any individuals from the Cross. He accomplished two things. One the primary work is to overcome death. Man was under the condemnation of death. Permanent non-existance. A non-existance that still exist under your view. Gen 3:19.

Unless man has life, immortality, there is no need to speak of faith or even having believers.

Christ also atoned for sin. That is, Christ became the perfect Lamb, the one-time sacrifice for sin. Col 1:20. All of this was to reconcile the entire world back to God. To take away from Satan the power he posssesed through death. Heb 2:14.

To this point there are no individuals, no believers in the equation as yet. Christ did not save individuals on or from the Cross. He reconciled the fall, made things right with God. Made things right so that those human beings who desired to fulfill the obligation of God's created mandate of man, to be in union with Him freely.

Because the fall is no longer an obstacle to man, man and God can seek the communion for which God created man. Adam lost that communion through death. Christ overcame that death, thus restoring the capability and the ability of man to be in union with God eternally.

Now to enter into that union, man must first believe that Christ in fact did save him from the fall. That he is no longer being held in bondage to death or sin.

Man can answer God's call, repent, be baptised, thus regenerating the lost union and receive the Holy Spirit.

Because Christ did not get rid of sin, nor satan, nor even our fallen natures in this life, man will still sin. But all we need to do is hand over those sins to Christ who is now our mediator and High Priest. He will place those sins on His ONE-TIME perfected sacrifice for the remission of sin.

Atonement does not mean forgiveness. A sacrifice of itself does not remit sins. To have sins forgiven one must first submit them to Christ so they can be placed upon that sacrifice He made on the Cross. We don't need additional sacrifices each time we commit a sin. We can simply present or confess them to Christ and as our High Priest will place them upon the sacrifice completed 2000 years ago.

Christ does not arbitrarily forgive sins either. That is one of the obligations of all believers to confess them to God. Sins retained will or can condemn one to hell. Returning to the dominance of the flesh, shows a loss of faith. If we are being saved through our faith, then it stands to reason that if we lose faith, we are no longer being saved. One cannot remain IN Christ and retain ones sins at the same time.

There are still several others as well who claim that Christ performed a limited atonement. Meaning He performed a limited sacrifice. Or, a sacrifice that was not complete, whole for some reason. No one to date has explained just how a sacrifice can be limited. The same also have never explained just how Christ can only save some individuals by His death and resurrection.

billy

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

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Right, the Lost that Christ did not come to seek and to save.

If He did, then He has failed His mission..

It may stay hid to some

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It will, those who Christ did not die for and destroy the works of the devil over them. Those who believe not are under the power of the devil, the god of this world 2 cor 4:

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,

So If Christ died for them, and satan still continues to keep them blinded in unbelief, then satan was stronger than Christ. And thats not true, because Christ by His death releases from the Strong man satan.

lk 11:

21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

So those who Christ died for, if they do not believe the Gospel, satan was stronger than Christ..

Thats satans Job to keep from believing to be saved Lk 8:12

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

billybtennessee said:

2nd Cor. 4:3,4, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."


Yet,

Mark 16:15,16, "And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

It may stay hid to some, but we are to go into all the world and preach it to every creature. God will do the damning part. Can we agree on this?

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yes .

the fact that many are blind to the Gospel shall in no way halt God from His cause , gathering together "all the children of God" from across the world .

billy:

I guess you will have to tell Him that yourself.

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No need, The Christ I serve has saved every last person He died for.

billybtennessee said:

Would make a great thread. Go for it, since you had the idea. God Bless.

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Why? it's relevant to this thread, isn't it?

Did Jesus Christ die for ALL men, or only the few?

Is it relevant to your thread to know what Jesus' purpose actually is here? Or is Jesus dying for all men, irrelevant to Jesus' purpose?

That's the point. If the claim is made that Jesus' purpose was to save all men, then either all men are saved, or Jesus failed to fulfill His purpose.

heymikey80,

That's the point. If the claim is made that Jesus' purpose was to save all men, then either all men are saved, or Jesus failed to fulfill His purpose.

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His purpose was to overcome the fall. Since all men were sentenced to death through Adam through our human natures, then Christ came to overcome the fall, He needed to overcome death.

This is precisely what he accomplished. He died and rose from the dead so that all mankind, including the world itself was given life. Scripture states He did indeed arise from the dead. Since He is risen then all the dead will also be risen. Thus He did in fact save the world which was His intention. He accomplished this as the Incarnate Christ. He assumed our human natures to raise them to life.

His purpose to save the world was so He and man could again be joined in union and commmunion with Him for an eternity. A union that is freely entered by and through faith.

That has been explained ad nausem. But what has never been explained as yet, is how Christ's death can be limited to a few, or how a sacrifice can be limited for only a few. I have not seen any text or theological arguement that posits how this can take place.

Many of you have made the claim, but claiming something does not make it a scriptural fact.