Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for the non-elect? how?

RobertZ · Apr 10, 2011

I often here people say that Christ sacrifice is sufficient for even the non elect even though he didnt die for them.

Someone care to explain to me how in the world his sacrifice is sufficient for the one that he didnt die for?

beloved57 · Apr 10, 2011

robert:

Someone care to explain to me how in the world his sacrifice is sufficient for the one that he didnt die for?

Its not sufficient for them, intentionally. Christ death and sufferings was so proportioned by Divine Justice, that it was minutely enough for Just His elect.

RobertZ · Apr 10, 2011

beloved57 said:
robert:

Its not sufficient for them, intentionally. Christ death and sufferings was so proportioned by Divine Justice, that it was minutely enough for Just His elect.

Well I hear so many calvinist explain to me that Christ death is sufficient for the non elect and that makes no sense to me because how can his death be sufficient for them if it doesnt save them? see what I mean?

beloved57 · Apr 10, 2011

RobertZ said:
Well I hear so many calvinist explain to me that Christ death is sufficient for the non elect and that makes no sense to me because how can his death be sufficient for them if it doesnt save them? see what I mean?

Yeah, I know what you mean. But Jesus did not shed one drop of blood or endure one feeling of pain for anyone going to hell..

RobertZ · Apr 10, 2011

beloved57 said:
Yeah, I know what you mean. But Jesus did not shed one drop of blood or endure one feeling of pain for anyone going to hell..

Then that settles it, its incorrect to say that his Blood is sufficient for the non elect when it clearly is not and people need to stop saying that it is.

beloved57 · Apr 10, 2011

RobertZ said:
Then that settles it, its incorrect to say that his Blood is sufficient for the non elect when it clearly is not and people need to stop saying that it is.

Well you can forget about people stop saying that it is..

cygnusx1 · Apr 10, 2011

RobertZ said:
I often here people say that Christ sacrifice is sufficient for even the non elect even though he didnt die for them.

Someone care to explain to me how in the world his sacrifice is sufficient for the one that he didnt die for?

there are two ideas of sufficiency , the one is that Christs death is able by it's own merits to save everyone , even those who will pay for their own sins ; Hypothetical universalism .

and there is the fact that even if ( we can do an if can't we ?) one more person was added to the Lamb's book of Life Christ would not have to die again for that one extra person seeing as Hid blood is sufficient for any man who believes .

I prefer to speak of the Universal suitableness of the Gospel and the Atonement rather than " sufficiency" , but that is because I believe in the Gospel invitation/offer . God calls all men to believe on Christ and to repent of sin and be baptised for the remission of sin.

I think it also preferable to say "definte atonement" instead of "limited atonement" ... it's clearer .

billybtennessee · Apr 10, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
I believe in the Gospel invitation/offer . God calls all men to believe on Christ and to repent of sin and be baptised for the remission of sin. .

The gospel is goodnews. It is to be preached to every creature. The gospel spoken of now, too often, by too many, is not what was commanded to preach to the world. A day of accounting is coming. Whether we believe that 'all' will appear there and give account or not will not matter. John fell at His feet as a dead man, the Christ whose side he had leaned upon that night they came to take Him. The glorified Christ is the one we will answer to. Preach the gospel, let Him do the judging, He alone will anyhow, truly, regarding who is His, and who is not. Thanks for your comment of what matters.

RobertZ · Apr 10, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
there are two ideas of sufficiency , the one is that Christs death is able by it's own merits to save everyone , even those who will pay for their own sins ; Hypothetical universalism .

and there is the fact that even if ( we can do an if can't we ?) one more person was added to the Lamb's book of Life Christ would not have to die again for that one extra person seeing as Hid blood is sufficient for any man who believes .

I prefer to speak of the Universal suitableness of the Gospel and the Atonement rather than " sufficiency" , but that is because I believe in the Gospel invitation/offer . God calls all men to believe on Christ and to repent of sin and be baptised for the remission of sin.

I think it also preferable to say "definte atonement" instead of "limited atonement" ... it's clearer .

Are you Calvinistic in your theology? I thought you were thats why im asking.

heymikey80 · Apr 10, 2011

RobertZ said:
Well I hear so many calvinist explain to me that Christ death is sufficient for the non elect and that makes no sense to me because how can his death be sufficient for them if it doesnt save them? see what I mean?

Article 3: The Infinite Value of Christ's Death

This death of God's Son is the only and entirely complete sacrifice and satisfaction for sins; it is of infinite value and worth, more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world. Canons of Dordt, 2.3

In this sense, it's more than enough to save everyone -- but it does not actually save everyone.

heymikey80 · Apr 10, 2011

RobertZ said:
Then that settles it, its incorrect to say that his Blood is sufficient for the non elect when it clearly is not and people need to stop saying that it is.

Just so you know: beloved57 is not a calvinist. Y'can ask him yourself.

cygnusx1 · Apr 10, 2011

RobertZ said:
Are you Calvinistic in your theology? I thought you were thats why im asking.

yes , the Spurgeon , Pink , Calvin variety :wave:

RobertZ · Apr 10, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
yes , the Spurgeon , Pink , Calvin variety

So when you say this.....

God calls all men to believe on Christ and to repent of sin and be baptised for the remission of sin.

Do you mean that God calls everyone to believe on Christ?

cygnusx1 · Apr 11, 2011

RobertZ said:
So when you say this.....

Do you mean that God calls everyone to believe on Christ?

all that will hear the Gospel , that includes the elect and none-elect

beloved57 · Apr 11, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
all that will hear the Gospel , that includes the elect and none-elect

None can hear the Gospel spiritually except those who have been born of God. Jn 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

47He that is of God heareth God's words[or His gospel]: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

It does not matter if one hears God's Gospel call with physival ears, in that case, the gospel is death unto death, but to those who are being saved, its life unto life.

beloved57 · Apr 11, 2011

robert:

Do you mean that God calls everyone to believe on Christ?

No He doesn't, only the elect, the Church, the Sheep, the ones Christ laid down His Life for.

RobertZ · Apr 11, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
all that will hear the Gospel , that includes the elect and none-elect

Do you believe in the two different calls as the Calvinist state? The internal call which goes out to the elect and the external call which the non elect hear?

RobertZ · Apr 11, 2011

beloved57 said:
robert:

No He doesn't, only the elect, the Church, the Sheep, the ones Christ laid down His Life for.

Thats exactly what I thought and I dont see how he can claim to be of the calvinist theology when he says that everyone hears the Gospel and has a chance to respond because that is not what calvinism states at all.

Hammster · Apr 11, 2011

RobertZ said:
Thats exactly what I thought and I dont see how he can claim to be of the calvinist theology when he says that everyone hears the Gospel and has a chance to respond because that is not what calvinism states at all.

I'm not going to speak for Cyg, but everyone does have a chance to respond. The non-elect won't because the don't want to. They love their sin too much.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

RobertZ · Apr 11, 2011

Hammster said:
I'm not going to speak for Cyg, but everyone does have a chance to respond. The non-elect won't because the don't want to. They love their sin too much.

Forum Runner goes to 11.

Well okay then i am correct in that other thread I started when I was explaining that God calls us but then its up to us to decide if we respond or not.

Yet some calvinist will say what you just said but then they will turn right back around and say that God just flat out chooses who is saved leaving man with no choice.

Im sorry Hammster, im a bit aggravated at this point, not at you brother but at all of this confusion!

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