Romans 9

beloved57 said:

billy:



You should pay more attention to how paul used the reference in rom 9..

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Yes, I have read both Pauls words there, and Malachi too, since he quotes there from Malachi. One scripture will not destroy the other. Proper interpretation always considers the whole of scripture on any topic. Paul recognizes the OT prophecies, Rom. 11:11-25. Prophecy will yet be fulfilled regarding the nation Israel. It is sure because God revealed and promised it.

beloved57 said:

billyt:



But you do not appear to me that you understand how He uses those words in rom chpt 9..

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Fair enough, to you it may appear as you stated. But to keep from making personal statements, let's also acknowledge that there are many others who see the same. I am sure not alone in recognizing that Paul quotes Malachi 1:1-3, in Rom. 9:13, and, the context in Malachi is concerning the nations they represent.

cygnusx1 said:

that God elects a nation out of love then finishes with her is Arminianism !

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National election does not include all people in that nation. We can see examples of this in the Law that speak of people being cut off from the people, including anyone who rejects that "prophet" who would come (Jesus). The texts below show no future for the nation of Israel. Nor were there any in the OT seeing as the OT shows many times God's destruction of many parts of Israel except for a remnant that was always kept.

If God has a promise He is keeping with national Israel then why has He not kept his promise for nearly 2000 years!? Does God only keep His promises when He feels like it? If there really are unconditional promises to the physical seed of Abraham then how do you explain God's lack of keeping these promises? You can't say that in the end times God will do something again for national Israel, because this in fact makes my point. It would prove that all those years God was not working with Israel He indeed was breaking His unconditional "without repentance" promise. The phrase from Romans 11:29 has already been delt with. It cannot be made to contradict Romans 11:5.

Matt 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.


Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.



The nation of Israel will never share in the inheritance of the kingdom of God. They can repent and join the Kingdom of God but they can't just stay where they are at and expect to enter.


2 Cor 1:20 For all the promises of God in Him (Jesus) are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

beloved57 said:

billy:



Yes, Its how paul used those scriptures from mal in romans 9 that you should seek to understand. In rom 9 the issue is salvation..

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The reason I actually started posting to this thread was to contest this very issue. I don't know how to conclude that Romans 9 is about salvation but Romans 11 is not. Since Romans 11 specifically mentions being "saved" more than once. Yet my point about Paul's statements about Israel were never answered. Namely, the flow of thought through Romans 11 that although many in Israel were blinded and not the elect they could in fact be saved.

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So some Jews are cast off and some are not. There are a remnant of Jews who believe according to the election of Grace. Then Paul says:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So Israel (unbelieving) has not attained but the elect remnant of Jews have obtained it according to the election of Grace.

Next Paul raises an important issue:

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall?

The "they" can only refer to those who are not "according to the election of Grace" because they have already been said to have "attained it". So Paul is talking about the "cast off" Jews:

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Paul is clearly trying to reach out and save some of the cast away people of his own race. Yet he has already stated these Jews are not those whom God has foreknew according to the election of grace.

How can this work in a Calvinistic view of Romans 9-11? The text here is not ambiguous. Paul is reaching out to the non-remnant part of Israel to try and save some.

beloved57 said:

I agree with that, but National Israel was never His Chosen foreknown People. The election of grace was in that Nation..

The election obtained that what the nation did not rom 11:



7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

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it makes no sense to say the only ones God loves are the remnant , it seems you understand that the elect within national Israel is chosen instead of the nation , I think it is the reverse ; the elect within Israel is the very substance of national election , that is to say the overal plan of God is for national Israel , what , even if some are cut off ?(notice the nation is NOT cut off) does that make God's faith and promises null and void ? hardly !

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
[3] For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So the gifts and callings of God are without repentance to the election of grace..

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get beyond personal election , God also elected a nation , Paul is dealing with a nation , their past and their future !

God does not cast away His People He foreknew rom 11:

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew

The Nation as a whole He did cast away:

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note , it isn't a question of God casting away believers (impossible) it isn't a question of God casting away the remnant of Grace (illogical) , it is a question of what is God's position over a people whom He chose out of mankind , the Jews , what is their future if God loved her , has He rejected , divorced His beloved Israel ? the answer is NO.

The nation as a whole cannot be cast away because many Jews are elected to salvation , therefore the nation "as a whole " cannot perish !

Even Ciaphas (under Divine inspiration) knew what you are determined to deny .

rom 11:15

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

You see that ? That would be a blatant contradiction if the Nation that was cast away was God's foreknown People..

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well , for you the nation is cast away (Arminianism) and for you there is no future "receiving of them back from the dead" ..... but God has never finished with His people , they were chosen unconditionally so they cannot make themselves unchosen.

Lastly to say God only loved the remnant of Israel and never the nation just shows a complete lack of Bible knowledge , read Hosea and get the heart of God.

Highya Cyg - can you clarify something for me? What about Jews who die without knowing Jesus? Do you believe that they would still be saved? I'm just trying to understand your position a little better...

Behe's Boy said:

Highya Cyg - can you clarify something for me? What about Jews who die without knowing Jesus? Do you believe that they would still be saved? I'm just trying to understand your position a little better...

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hi Dave , the truth is nobody can be saved without faith , and none can be saved who have never heard the Gospel (Rom 10)

some assume , wrongly , that the Lord must have to save all Jews for the nation to be saved , such is not the case .

How do we know God treats Israel differently to the other nations ? scripture says "unless the Lord had granted us Jews children , we would have fared just like Sodom and Gomorrah" ... God granted the Jews a posterity out of Covenant love inspite of her sin.

God no more has to save every Jew in order to save Israel , than the Lord has to save every person in order to save the world ; if one saw a species under threat of extinction one merely has to save some of that species in order to save that species .

Christ died for the world (all nations) and Christ saved the world .

I think it is often taken for granted that only a few Jews are saved and the majority are hardened and lost , I think , given the entire period of history , including their restoration , it will be the reverse ; therefore the nation "all Israel" shall be saved .

God covenanted with the Israelites granting unto them far more than any other nation , His love for her cannot end. see Hosea

Arc said:

National election does not include all people in that nation. We can see examples of this in the Law that speak of people being cut off from the people, including anyone who rejects that "prophet" who would come (Jesus). The texts below show no future for the nation of Israel. Nor were there any in the OT seeing as the OT shows many times God's destruction of many parts of Israel except for a remnant that was always kept.

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does it ever occur to you why God always saves a remnant of Israel , He doesn't treat others the same way !

If God has a promise He is keeping with national Israel then why has He not kept his promise for nearly 2000 years!? Does God only keep His promises when He feels like it? If there really are unconditional promises to the physical seed of Abraham then how do you explain God's lack of keeping these promises? You can't say that in the end times God will do something again for national Israel, because this in fact makes my point. It would prove that all those years God was not working with Israel He indeed was breaking His unconditional "without repentance" promise. The phrase from Romans 11:29 has already been delt with. It cannot be made to contradict Romans 11:5.

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the same question is posed by Paul (Romans 11) and answered (Romans 9) God never intended to save every Jew , the nation is selected and very much blessed , do the Israelites still have sin ? yes , but they still have the Law , the scriptures and the promises .

Matt 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

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only in part , some are hardened but never is that meant to imply an end to God's care .

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. 24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

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yet , the child of the promise , Isaac , was a Jew , salvation is of the Jews , and a real Jew is every repentant Gentile !

The nation of Israel will never share in the inheritance of the kingdom of God. They can repent and join the Kingdom of God but they can't just stay where they are at and expect to enter.


2 Cor 1:20 For all the promises of God in Him (Jesus) are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

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they shall return , God shall (not might) banish ungodliness from Jacob , He shall give them a new heart , He shall put His Law in their hearts , what God began He will finish.

who is promised a New Covenant ? Jews .

Gentiles are brought into the one vine that Israel already belonged to , that makes us beneficeries of Gods Covenant Israel .

the reason Paul says we must not become wise in our own conceits is that we are not only benefitting by God blessing and choosing the Jews , we are also benefitting by God hardening the Jews (in part) and we will further benefit greatly from her future healing .... Israel have not stumbled so that they fall , we stand only by faith (not by national blessings ) so we ought to be humble and respect what an awesome privilge it is to be grafted in against nature , into the vine that Israel represents , sure some branches (of Israel) are cut off , what of it ? shall that effect God's covenant love ? shall a few sinners cause God to cut off a nation ? God forbid !

John 11

[49] And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

[50] Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.


[51] And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;


[52] And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Jesus died for the Nation of the Jews that the whole nation should not perish , such is God's love and concern for Israel viewed as a nation.

beloved57 said:

cyg:



Thats to you.



Who said He did ? The Nation was broken off because of unbelief. They were not the True Sons of Abraham...

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wrong ! some branches are cut off , the vine remains intact , there is no breaking off of God's covenant to Israel , Paul himslef spoke about his own tribe as evidence of God's national love , national does NOT mean every person , neither does it mean a remanant .

beloved57 said:

cyg:



Yes, Here it is:

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And I am sorry, thats not the Nation of Israel, see what happened to them in vs 7-8

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see what happened to them ?

read Hosea , then Romans 11 , you have it that ;

1. either the vine , not just a few branches , but the entire vine is cut off , therefore , there is nothing left to be grafted back into , and we are grafted into nothing because it's gone , or

2. Jesus is the vine in Romans 11 , and many in Christ are cut off and lost , hardly going to fit your OSAS position !

God's Covenant with Israel remains , sin cannot stop it (Romans 3)

beloved57 said:

God did not elect the physical nation of Israel out of Love, God chose Abraham out of Love and all of His spiritual seed, which for a long while did live in the physical Nation..The Physical descendants of Abraham, are not the children of God. rom 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

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it's not that God doesn't chose children of the flesh , Isaac and Jacob were both children of the flesh , they weren't immaculately conceived , they were like Paul , Jews .

Rom.11

[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.


Here Paul makes mention of his own tribe as soon as he says of the seed of Abraham !

does Romans 11 contradict Romans 9 ?

no , they are dealking with a different issue

Romans 9 is dealing with personal election and personal salvation , Romans 11 is not a REPEAT of Romans 9 , it is dealing with another issue , national election and Gods promises .



when God speaks to Israel in the OT it is as a nation , it wasn't just a couple of Israelites who came under Gods care , it was the nation.


who are enemies of the Gospel ? the remnant ? no ..... and these enemies are beloved