Was sin created by God ?

Hismessenger said:

Elopez, see that word ALL in that passage. See the word invisible and principalities or powers. Now if you can tell me one item that the word ALL doesn't encompass, you might have a valid debate. But since it says all and I will note that Satan is one of those principalities and powers it speaks of. How do you explain this if God didn't do it?

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Okay so let me ask you this. If this verse is referencing all things, then this also must mean that God is the one who 'created' skyscrapers and buildings? Cars and planes? Does this mean that God 'created' all the works of art that we find in art museums all over the world? Those things I presume encompasses "all," so the question is how you would explain this.

Hismessenger said:

Note that it says by him and FOR him. Everything that exists in this creation has purpose or else it wouldn't be here. Sin has purpose for God. It is a created thing just like everything else that is within for it can't exist outside of this creation. OR do you believe otherwise. If God ends the creation, sin is ended right along with it for sin is apart of this creation. And who did it? You know who! Sin did not enter in from outside but came from within.

hismessenger

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I agree that everything in creation has a purpose, but if automobiles and art pieces were created by God what purpose do they serve for Him? What purpose does a building in New York have for God? Sin is not a created thing as this has been pointed out numerous times. Sin is not composed of a material substance, as you agreed with me sin is going against the will of God so in the most exact sense sin is an action that produces damaging effects. If sin is not of physical substance it cannot be created in the same way the earth or universe was, it must be caused or committed to become existent. Who was the originator of sin? Adam and Eve, not God.

beloved57 said:

elopez:



Who is ? Who creates in the womb ? Do you believe its satan ?

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It is a natural process. Or are you unaware of how the birthing process goes? No, Satan is not involved.

Okay so let me ask you this. If this verse is referencing all things, then this also must mean that God is the one who 'created' skyscrapers and buildings? Cars and planes? Does this mean that God 'created' all the works of art that we find in art museums all over the world? Those things I presume encompasses "all," so the question is how you would explain this.

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All out of the mind of God or do you believe that they are things which spring up in mans mind on his own mental ability? Without God, man would have no mind to even think with. How do you think you are holding this conversation and who do you think gives you this ability.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

All out of the mind of God or do you believe that they are things which spring up in mans mind on his own mental ability? Without God, man would have no mind to even think with. How do you think you are holding this conversation and who do you think gives you this ability.

hismessenger

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You failed to answer the question. Does God make those things in the same way He made the universe? It seems like you would say no, that God gave man the ability to to form thoughts on buildings and thus man made them. That means that God does not directly create those things as He did with earth or the universe. These are man-made things made possible by God. So, evidently this verse does not reference that God has directly created "all" things in a similar fashion. I believe evil was made existent just as the building or air plane simply made possible by God but not actualized by God.

Who was the originator of sin? Adam and Eve, not God.

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Something for you to consider. If Christ was ordained to be the savior of the world before it was created,ala before the foundations were laid. do you really think Adam and Eve had a choice. And no they weren't the originator of sin. In order for the word of God to hold true ordaining Christ as our savior, they chose the only path to that end. Satan had already fallen in eternity and that was how he came to be in the garden. Time has no relevance in eternity.

Think about it. It is all, all Gods plan and execution.

hismessenger

I didn't fail to answer your question, just answered it in a way you hadn't expected.
And yes God makes those things the same way He created the universe. Out of the mind of God comes all innovation and technology. Man is not capable of these things on His own.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

Something for you to consider. If Christ was ordained to be the savior of the world before it was created,ala before the foundations were laid. do you really think Adam and Eve had a choice. And no they weren't the originator of sin. In order for the word of God to hold true ordaining Christ as our savior, they chose the only path to that end. Satan had already fallen in eternity and that was how he came to be in the garden. Time has no relevance in eternity.

Think about it. It is all, all Gods plan and execution.

hismessenger

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Yes, A&E actually had a choice between life and death, God just knew which choice they were going to make. And even being that it may A&E were not the real originators of sin as Lucifer fell before them, that still derives from your point that God created evil as it would have been Satan.

Hismessenger said:

I didn't fail to answer your question, just answered it in a way you hadn't expected.
And yes God makes those things the same way He created the universe. Out of the mind of God comes all innovation and technology. Man is not capable of these things on His own.

hismessenger

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That's the point, God does not "create" buildings and cars in the same way He created the universe. God did more than just apprehend the universe, He actually partook in creating it, as in actively created it. You cannot say that God "created' buildings and cars in the same fashion because that would require for God to participate Himself in creating those things, but as you have acknowledged these are things that are made directly by man himself that was made possible because of God. Therefore saying God "created" cars and planes in similar fashion as the earth or universe is to equivocate the term "created."

Elopez, God did and still is participating in His creation. He came into His creation as the savior Jesus Christ. If you don't grasp that fact there is no further reason to continue this dialogue. What you are saying is God created us and then allow us to fill our own minds with what we could accept and understand. Satan fills our minds with wicked thoughts but yet you can not see where God has given us the very mind with which Satan fills our heads with his wickedness. God is not a creature of physical make up and thus all His doings are of the spirit. How do you think you came to be saved. Of your own accord or Gods calling? Was it natural or spiritual. Thus is it always with God. Spirit. The spirit moved upon the face of the deep and spoke all things into existance. It is All from the mind of God.

hismessenger

Hismessenger said:

Elopez, God did and still is participating in His creation. He came into His creation as the savior Jesus Christ. If you don't grasp that fact there is no further reason to continue this dialogue.

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The incarnation is something I grasp, but it does not mean God created sin in the same way He did the universe. You wish to neglect all my arguments pertaining to this and instead want to babble on about something that is completely and wholly a strawman. I don't want to continue this dialogue any longer because your posts are irrelevant and do not address any of my arguments.

Hismessenger said:

What you are saying is God created us and then allow us to fill our own minds with what we could accept and understand. Satan fills our minds with wicked thoughts but yet you can not see where God has given us the very mind with which Satan fills our heads with his wickedness. God is not a creature of physical make up and thus all His doings are of the spirit. How do you think you came to be saved. Of your own accord or Gods calling? Was it natural or spiritual. Thus is it always with God. Spirit. The spirit moved upon the face of the deep and spoke all things into existance. It is All from the mind of God.

hismessenger

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No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying God created us the potential for sin and then we actualized that potentiality. Same applies with buildings and art, though this again does not mean He created those things directly as He did with the universe.

beloved57 said:

elop:



Began by who ? You dont believe its God ?

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You can say that if you want, but that isn't the same as saying God is the one making the baby in the womb.

beloved57 said:

elo:



Ok so then God created them to choose death then. It was evidently God's will and purpose for them to choose death, since He knew it would happen before He created them..

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Knowing something is going to happen doesn't necessarily imply that what is known is what is intended to happen. It was unintentional but inevitable given God created man with free will.

So what you are saying is that God drew up a blue print and detailed everything it takes to build the creation and then something came up unexpectedly that he has to adjust to because he didn't see it all from the beginning when he planned it. Not!

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Psa 139:6 [Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it.
Psa 147:5 Great [is] our Lord, and of great power: his understanding [is] infinite.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

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This is the part where most religious people fall short for they can't accept this truth because of self. Self must die and realize that it isn't about us but about the glory of God.

Isa 40:4 With whom took he counsel, and [who] instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

Isa 40:22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Isa 40:23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

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Understanding this and the fear of the Lord are the beginning of wisdom. You can't understand the workings of God with a finite mind and place restraints upon Him by what we think.

hismessenger

Go back and read Gen 1. It shows you all the things which you say can't be that God has done all from His mind. He willed everything into existence by His mind and there is nothing created in this creation that he is not the author of for His purpose which we don't know the first inkling of unless he reveals it to us. There were no fish in the ocean until He spoke them forth. Think about all the different species that he fostered and then ask yourself, how is it he can't cause men to envision buildings and cars and airplanes. If he didn't see them from the beginning, they wouldn't and couldn't be possible. Man surely doesn't have the foresight of mind to develop these things from within Himself. If you believe that you do then make it happen and then we can talk.

hismessenger