Soul Sleep?

chalkstc · Apr 9, 2011

TF,

Eccleasiates
9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

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All of ECC was from the perspective of man perceiving what happpens "under the Sun"

We who are alive do not know what happens after life passes. Those that die in body don't know what is goning on "under the Sun".

John
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

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Christ is the only glorified man that has ascended into the heavens. But the rest of mankind have not been glorified yet. That does not mean the soul/spirit is not with the Lord at death of the body imo.

1Corinthians
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

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No problem here either........it is what is sown that is raised. The "it" is the body that corrupts in the grave. The reason for resurrection of the body is to raise it incorruptible. Those that sleep in Jesus are brought with Him when He descends......proving the inner man lives on with Him at the death of their body.

And it is ALL IN Christ that are raised, and not all mankind. We all were in Adam before wqe met the Lord. Now we are called "IN Christ"

Frankie
PS Paul makes it clear that we are spirit, soul and body, but yet you guys say the soul is the whole man. Hebrews 4 breaks up the man in the same way.

All three make up the whole man. When the body dies, the spirit and soul remain.

Why doesn't Ezek say all souls die, instead of saying only "the soul that sinneth shall die"? But you say the righteous soul dies like the sinning soul........................

Makes no sense to me.

Manasseh_ · Apr 9, 2011

chalkstc said:
Mike,

The JW's do exactly what you agree to. Of course He was telling him "today". What other day did they have left? If you read only the Grk, you would not come up with that opinion imo.

I already answered the "other day" that was left.........the thief asked to be remembered when he would begin rule in his kingdom and Christ promised that he would be remembered and would be in his kingdom........so that's the "other day" that was left to choose from...........

chalkstc said:
It seems obvioust that you Manasseh and I will not agree on this theme, and only death will prove which is right.

You said earlier that the NT had shed light on the OT giving understanding of what becomes of the dead.........so why do we have to wait until the very end to prove what is right.......? I believe that's what scripture is doing now , proving what is truth (right) and what is wrong ..........

chalkstc said:
I asked one of you about Ezek and "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". So according to you guys...................the soul that does not sinn shall also die. Is this what you believe? If so, what is the difference between sinner and saint? What was Ezek's point?

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God........there are no souls who did not or does not sin, (except Christ) even the saint who continues the rest of their life in faith through Christ still dies.............
The actual point Ezekiel was making if the entire part is read was the fact that everyone is accountable of their own actions, God does not pass judgment or hold anyone else responsible for the choices that men make................Eze 18:20

chalkstc said:
Manasseh,

I believe you said there was no difference between us and animal as to this soul issue. Not true..............

The earth simply and miraculously brought forth the beast of the field. No breath of God action with the beast as there is with man.

Where'd you get such an idea that they just appeared.........? Moses made no such implication..................

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

God had formed them from out of the ground just as he did with Adam and since God is the life giver he also imparted breath.....life to these creatures as well..........the very reason Moses called all of them, both man and beast NEPHESH (soul) a living breathing being.

Solomon verifies this in the Ecclesiastes............

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

the spirit in verse 21 is Ruach, the breath (verse 19 they have all one breath).........the same Ruach God breathed into man and beast when they were created.......the life giving force from the life giver...........

the 21st verse is not contradicting itself by implying there are two different spirits, one goes up and one goes down, in the way that the actual hebrew reads it's showing that the destiny of man is not the same as a beast even though they both return to dust again.......the man was created in God's image and God had a special plan for this part of his creation, where the beast does not. Can't be 2 different spirits here to begin with because it's the same spirit Ruach from God and his spirit always returns to him.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

and Solomon made it perfectly clear that no man has any such power over this spirit of God that gives life and takes it.............

Ecc 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

chalkstc said:
When Adam was formed, what was that substance? A clay sculpture as lifeless as an idol men made....................couldn't speak or move until God imparted something of Himself within the man...............He "breathed" into him and the man became a "living soul".

Now it should be obvious that God did not need earth's atmosphere to exist, but man does. So what did He breathe into the man? His personhood, intellect and ability to understand worship of his Creator. The man was now aware and even was given the chore of naming all the animals.

You just hit the nail on the head...........intellect........since God formed man in his image he imparted to man a different kind of thinking than the animals.........animals function only on instinct, not to say they don't think and feel as do all creatures of God.....but not on the level that man does..............man was endowed with a different mind (spirit).......a mind that asks "WHY"....Psalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Not our brains, but our mind, something that can't be seen in the physical realm, our intellect which gives us the capability to converse with God and to ask why in all parts of life................

But.........this spirit that man has is also subject to death, it's only the capability of man not something immortal in man..............it also perishes at death........................Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

chalkstc said:
How will Caiaphas SEE Chjrist's SC if he is not raised? Wasn't he one of the ones who pierced Him? And these pierced ones will all see per Rev 1.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

the chief priest Caiaphas won't see him at his return..........but they ALSO will see him in their resurrection.......John does not imply that every human that ever lived will see Christ when he returns, but at the appointed times they will all see him sitting at the right hand of Glory.

I thought it was already adequate to show that the first resurrection is only reserved for those that are blessed and receive immortality because the second death has no power on them.........how can you explain a first resurrection that also includes Caiaphas receiving the same blessing and gift of life ?

chalkstc said:
And if I take you guys to the end of the matter, then you must also believe in anihilation of the sinner............or that he does not suffer for Eternity. Is this your view also? If so, then everlasting condemnation means nothing. Thye smoke of their torment etc etc.
And without are dogs etc etc.

They are annihilated , they are cast into the lake of fire and burned to the point of becoming ashes , they perish just as scripture so often repeats, their soul is DESTROYED (Matt 10:28)......if the opposite is implied then you first must supply scripture that shows God also grants immortality (eternal life) so they can be tortured forever....we all know this would be impossible since eternal life is only a gift given from God for those faithful in Christ to be their resurrection to immortality and released from death.

chalkstc said:
Back to the OT texts and audience relavance.............I believe Solomon sets a theme when he says "everything under the Sun". Thus when it says man knows nothing in the grave and has no rememberance means the dead one knows nothing of what is happening on the earth under the Sun. Or the dead no not nothing of earth's matters once they die. But they are conscious of where they are and certainly they are not praising the Lord in torments

Thx guys,
Frankie

Solomon is speaking of all the dead, righteous and wicked, so we can't imply that the righteous are in torments also............?
Solomon just finishes saying in so many verses the dead don't know anything because they're dead, no conscious being left after death, why are we implying that at the same time he is saying they are conscious ? ...........there is nothing in the grave, no learning, no wisdom to get , no working, no doing anything, not even thinking.....the dead don't know anything or can do anything Eccl 9:2 and 10.........Solomon isn't limiting it to only "under the sun" he simply says that in the grave there is nothing

it seems scripture keeps indicating no "immortal soul" at every turn

chalkstc · Apr 10, 2011

Manasseh_ said:
I already answered the "other day" that was left.........the thief asked to be remembered when he would begin rule in his kingdom and Christ promised that he would be remembered and would be in his kingdom........so that's the "other day" that was left to choose from...........

You said earlier that the NT had shed light on the OT giving understanding of what becomes of the dead.........so why do we have to wait until the very end to prove what is right.......? I believe that's what scripture is doing now , proving what is truth (right) and what is wrong ..........

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God........there are no souls who did not or does not sin, (except Christ) even the saint who continues the rest of their life in faith through Christ still dies.............
The actual point Ezekiel was making if the entire part is read was the fact that everyone is accountable of their own actions, God does not pass judgment or hold anyone else responsible for the choices that men make................Eze 18:20

Where'd you get such an idea that they just appeared.........? Moses made no such implication..................

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

God had formed them from out of the ground just as he did with Adam and since God is the life giver he also imparted breath.....life to these creatures as well..........the very reason Moses called all of them, both man and beast NEPHESH (soul) a living breathing being.

Solomon verifies this in the Ecclesiastes............

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

the spirit in verse 21 is Ruach, the breath (verse 19 they have all one breath).........the same Ruach God breathed into man and beast when they were created.......the life giving force from the life giver...........

the 21st verse is not contradicting itself by implying there are two different spirits, one goes up and one goes down, in the way that the actual hebrew reads it's showing that the destiny of man is not the same as a beast even though they both return to dust again.......the man was created in God's image and God had a special plan for this part of his creation, where the beast does not. Can't be 2 different spirits here to begin with because it's the same spirit Ruach from God and his spirit always returns to him.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

and Solomon made it perfectly clear that no man has any such power over this spirit of God that gives life and takes it.............

Ecc 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

You just hit the nail on the head...........intellect........since God formed man in his image he imparted to man a different kind of thinking than the animals.........animals function only on instinct, not to say they don't think and feel as do all creatures of God.....but not on the level that man does..............man was endowed with a different mind (spirit).......a mind that asks "WHY"....Psalms 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Not our brains, but our mind, something that can't be seen in the physical realm, our intellect which gives us the capability to converse with God and to ask why in all parts of life................

But.........this spirit that man has is also subject to death, it's only the capability of man not something immortal in man..............it also perishes at death........................Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

the chief priest Caiaphas won't see him at his return..........but they ALSO will see him in their resurrection.......John does not imply that every human that ever lived will see Christ when he returns, but at the appointed times they will all see him sitting at the right hand of Glory.

I thought it was already adequate to show that the first resurrection is only reserved for those that are blessed and receive immortality because the second death has no power on them.........how can you explain a first resurrection that also includes Caiaphas receiving the same blessing and gift of life ?

They are annihilated , they are cast into the lake of fire and burned to the point of becoming ashes , they perish just as scripture so often repeats, their soul is DESTROYED (Matt 10:28)......if the opposite is implied then you first must supply scripture that shows God also grants immortality (eternal life) so they can be tortured forever....we all know this would be impossible since eternal life is only a gift given from God for those faithful in Christ to be their resurrection to immortality and released from death.

Solomon is speaking of all the dead, righteous and wicked, so we can't imply that the righteous are in torments also............?
Solomon just finishes saying in so many verses the dead don't know anything because they're dead, no conscious being left after death, why are we implying that at the same time he is saying they are conscious ? ...........there is nothing in the grave, no learning, no wisdom to get , no working, no doing anything, not even thinking.....the dead don't know anything or can do anything Eccl 9:2 and 10.........Solomon isn't limiting it to only "under the sun" he simply says that in the grave there is nothing

it seems scripture keeps indicating no "immortal soul" at every turn

Hi Manasseh and Mike,

I have to admit that I thought this thread would end in stalemate. But both of you have been persistent and patient with me which I humbly thankyou both.

I have come to learn that it is hardest to "unlearn" something you have been taught, than learning the truth with no bias first.

I am coming around by understanding what I have missed. I hope you at least understand that I don't just swallow because you or anyone says so. If I can't see it, I don't eat it. I'm about 98% with you because you have pointed the way from the Word and not your own opinions. For that, I am thankful.

I had this same problem leaving pretrib for post until the Word itself knocked on my heart's door. Tough to unlearn as I have said before.

I think the hardest part of this issue was having to believe that the dead rested in the grave for umteen years. Instead, I see that because we know nothing, we immediately awake at the SC for our resurrection with no feeling of any time passing from when our eyes closed till they open.

I want to thankyou again for being true to the Word and not haughty or I might have missed it again if I felt you were just attacking or demeaning me.

Both of you......keep up the good work with others who maybe such as myself. A true gentle spirit will win more converts than a demeaning one.

God Bless,
Brother Frankie

Super Kal · Apr 10, 2011

then im honestly confused, manasseh...

if we are completely unconscious after we die, how then could Jesus minster to the souls in hades if they were indeed unconscious?

chalkstc · Apr 10, 2011

SK,

These spirits were most likely fallen angels of Noah's day who were sent to Tartartus. They had no idea what had transpired on earth. Jesus did not preach the gospel to them, but proclaimed His victory as the "seed of the woman" from Gen 3:15 imo.

Frankie
PS it is said that a third fell with satan in his rebellion before Adam. But not the whole third are free to roam as demonic entities. Some are in the pit or abyusso right now. Some of these will be released during the GT...............the four from the river Euphrates for example.

Manasseh_ · Apr 10, 2011

chalkstc said:
I hope you at least understand that I don't just swallow because you or anyone says so. If I can't see it, I don't eat it.

God Bless,
Brother Frankie

You're following the exact example of the Bereans during their day....they didn't "just swallow" either, they would listen with open minds but they sure didn't believe it just because someone said it.........you already know the story

Manasseh_ · Apr 10, 2011

Super Kal said:
then im honestly confused, manasseh...

if we are completely unconscious after we die, how then could Jesus minster to the souls in hades if they were indeed unconscious?

I'm sure this is what you are referring to .....................

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

satan always has a crafty way of making false doctrines (telling lies)
his "ministers" are using God's word, remember satan tried the same thing when he tempted Christ.........but it's being used wrongly.

first the idea is planted...........Christ while in the grave went and preached to dead people..............and here's the verse to prove it 1Peter 3:19............and on the surface it seems to be true that scripture is supporting the "idea" so there's a verse to prove it , hence this means that dead people still are conscious because Christ went and preached to them while he was dead also.

now the sneaky part is where other verses are conveniently left out, we have to remember these were letters of the apostles not broken down by chapter and verse, letters to be read as a whole, not just one sentence or one partial sentence.
we should have noticed right away that verse 19 isn't a complete sentence...........by which he..............by what ?, what's Peter talking about ?

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

aaahhh, there's by which he preached, by the same power that raised him from the grave to immortality by the power of God's Holy Spirit he "preached" to the "spirits" in "prison"

when ?
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

when Noah was building the ark............that's when he "preached"......this doesn't mean only to convey the gospel message, he didn't preach the gospel to "spirits in prison" this word in the Greek also means to proclaim, to herald, to publish.

and spirits in prison, humans aren't referred to as (pneuma) breath, by analogy a spirit, we have breath but we aren't breath or air or like the air , we're flesh and blood and when we're dead it wouldn't make any difference whether or not we're in "prison" we wouldn't realize it anyway.............

so what spirits in prison spirits like air or have power over it......?

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

and satan was cast down from heaven too, not allowed to stay in heaven (God's Throne) Theos Thronos any longer.........

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

the prison ?.....................

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

they didn't keep their estate in Heaven with God...........they too were cast down with satan, no longer being allowed to stay at his Throne, held in chains (prison) until they will be judged.

this same "spirit" satan who had power over the air in Noah's day tempting wicked men to do even more wickedly (worketh in the children of disobedience) and his fallen angels also..........and Christ when he was THE WORD (John 1:1) before he became flesh REBUKED these spirits that most likely were bearing down on Noah while he spent nearly 100 years preparing the ark, God always protects his servants.

Christ didn't "minister to souls" when he went to the grave and he didn't "preach" to spirits in prison, he was dead for three days and nights just as he said he would be using Jonah as an example. satan wants to cast doubt on even Christ's death and resurrection and suggest that Christ didn't really die for sins and that he really didn't rise from death because he was already still alive..........
satan only likes one word (death) he doesn't want to hear LIFE and RESURRECTION and he definitely doesn't want to hear that it comes from Jesus Christ whom he thought he had destroyed.

and the very last verse in this part of Peter's letter to believers......
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

"by which" (power of the Holy Spirit) also he ascended back to his Father in heaven and now satan no longer has the power of death and the grave , he's subject to Christ and his judgment now.

Super Kal · Apr 11, 2011

its not that i doubted He died... the verse just didnt make sense to me is all.

now it does, though

Ortho_Cat · Apr 11, 2011

This is the only type of "soul sleep" I am familiar with:

"My soul, my soul, arise! Why are you sleeping? The end is drawing near, and you will be confounded. Awake, then, and be watchful, that Christ our God may spare you, Who is everywhere present and fills all things."

Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete (As chanted on Monday of the first Week) - A Russian Orthodox Church Website : A Russian Orthodox Church Website

Manasseh_ · Apr 11, 2011

Super Kal said:
its not that i doubted He died... the verse just didnt make sense to me is all.

now it does, though

I certainly hope you didn't think I implied that you did doubt it.

Manasseh_ · Apr 11, 2011

ortho_cat said:
This is the only type of "soul sleep" I am familiar with:

"My soul, my soul, arise! Why are you sleeping? The end is drawing near, and you will be confounded. Awake, then, and be watchful, that Christ our God may spare you, Who is everywhere present and fills all things."

Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete (As chanted on Monday of the first Week) - A Russian Orthodox Church Website : A Russian Orthodox Church Website

as "chanted" on the Monday of the first week...........chant as in vain repetition, maybe less chanting, repeating something over and over and over and more reading of scripture and praying to God for understanding and guidance of which he freely gives when asked.

Ortho_Cat · Apr 11, 2011

Manasseh_ said:
as "chanted" on the Monday of the first week...........chant as in vain repetition, maybe less chanting, repeating something over and over and over and more reading of scripture and praying to God for understanding and guidance of which he freely gives when asked.

My dear brother, just because something is repeated does not mean it is vain. Christ himself praying in the garden returned to make the same petition 3 times.

If you told someone that you loved them 50,000 time through the course of your life, does that mean that such is vain repetition?

Manasseh_ · Apr 11, 2011

ortho_cat said:
My dear brother, just because something is repeated does not mean it is vain. Christ himself praying in the garden returned to make the same petition 3 times.

If you told someone that you loved them 50,000 time through the course of your life, does that mean that such is vain repetition?

neither example fits the type of chanting you referred to .......yours was a reference to a writing.......how'd it get great, and become "canon" and who made andrew of crete a saint ?........in addition you seemed to imply the only kind of soul sleep was that of temporary rest while still alive, the subject of this thread is obviously when death occurs it's likened to sleep because you're not conscious as to what goes on around you and it's a temporary state until judgment.

Timothew · Apr 27, 2011

chalkstc said:
Error of Soul Sleep - part 2
Note: Samuel was resting in paradise in the earth, and resented Saul disturbing him by bringing him up. Samuel was not asleep, just resting, not soul sleep, but conscious.

This is hilarious!

Thanks for making my day.

JohnRabbit · Apr 29, 2011

Romans 6:23 ( NKJV ) 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

now, the way i see it, we either have eternal life or we don't.

since we die, i believe that we don't have eternal life, or else we can't die, duh.
and to me, God seems to know the same thing.

God defined what we are:

Genesis 3:19 ( NKJV ) 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread

Till you return to the ground,

For out of it you were taken;

For dust you are,

And to dust you shall return.”

so here, God not only defines us, but He also tells us where we are going.

here's another verse that tells me that God doesn't think there's anything in man that can live forever:

Genesis 3:22 ( NKJV ) 22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

now what about this "breath" or "breath of life" of man?

Genesis 2:7 ( NKJV ) 7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

now, i notice that God breathed into man, and man became (not has) a living soul.

let's take a look at "the breath of life":

Genesis 7:20-23 ( NKJV ) 20The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. 21And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life (Septuagint and Vulgate omit of the spirit), all that was on the dry land, died. 23So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.

the verse says that all flesh died that had the "breath of life". only noah and his family remained alive. everybody else, died (verse 22). they were destroyed, even!

de·stroy
[dih-stroi] (from dictionary.com)
–verb (used with object)
1.
to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2.
to put an end to; extinguish.
3.
to kill; slay.

what does the bible say about the life of the flesh?

Leviticus 17:11-14 ( NKJV ) 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’ 12Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘No one among you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who dwells among you eat blood.’

13“Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust; 14for it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, ‘You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.’

and what about what john said?

1 John 3:14-15 ( NKJV ) 14We know that we have passed from death to life (we have the promise of eternal life), because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

so much for the "burning forever" thingy.

which brings us back to rom 6:23!

Soul Sleep?

Newbie

not the evil king Manasseh

Newbie

the goal is to be more like You, and less like me

Newbie

not the evil king Manasseh

not the evil king Manasseh

the goal is to be more like You, and less like me

Orthodox Christian

not the evil king Manasseh

not the evil king Manasseh

Orthodox Christian

not the evil king Manasseh

Conditionalist

just trying to understand

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