Are you under THE law, Grace or both (2)

from scratch said:

I think it was Paul's intent that a Jew no longer had to observe the law for salvation, but didn't say that they couldn't live like Jews. Paul also didn't say the Gentiles were required to live like Jews. He also applied this to Jewish believers, but not as a requirement. I'm not advocating something against Gal 5:4 which I uphold as I've discussed. Yes I do see how that could be a problem for some. My idea is when it comes down to observing the law as a requirement or proof of or for salvation a decision must be made for or against the law. One can't serve the law in any respect to salvation.

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Welp, then what about the division that the law causes? How can the two be one?



Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility



Besides, in it's own essence, it just shows people don't understand the full ramifications of the cross.


Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

We can't get around the fact, that when they started to live as Jews, a church split was going on. So really, the observance in and of itself, is divisive. In other words, we would be hard pressed, to find an MJ, who does not think "Yeshua" does not want them to keep torah, so what does that mean about the rest of the church? It can only draw one conclusion.

cyberlizard said:

there are a number of deficits and innacuracies in this post... let me list them...

'wasn't necessary for an adult to be circumcised to prove salvation'

'circumcision to a Jew meant 'salvation'

circumcision was necessary to participate in the covenant of Israel'

all of these are untrue and represent no more than caricatures of Jewish beliefs spouted by Christians but not actually borne out of a Jewish understanding of things from within the writings they have produced. Each can be refuted to simply reading the Talmud. Mine is a Soncino edition and whilst I can provide references, I am not going too. Needless to say, he are a few arguments...

circumcision neither gains eternal life nor loses it...

there was a minority opinion within the sages that all that was required to become 'an Israelite' was baptism (NOT circumcision). This argument was made on the basis that women need not become circumcised (as though it was possible anyway).

what meant salvation to a Jew, was faithfulness. Whilst it encompassed circumcision, we need to all ensure we are discussing the same thing. The NT writings cloud the issue and we miss it as we presume they are talking about the same thing. In the OT, circumcision was for Jews. During the late period, Ezra/Nehemiah and into the inter-testamental period, circumcision was for Jews and people who wanted to convert. By the time the NT period arrives, 'circumcision' has become ritual shorthand and a technical defintion for the 'process of conversion'. Every time we read the word circumcision, we need to be as sure as we can be as to which meaning is meant, whether it be cutting, converts, conversion, proselytes, god-fearers. If we do not get the right aspect we will fudge the entire passage.

the covenant with Israel had within it, scope for both Israel AND the stranger who sojourned in their midst. This would be the non-Jew! The covenant also had both scope for Jew and animal. In this regard, the covenant was not purely directed at liberation for people, but liberation for animals only... in fact the RSPCA was founded by an Anglican minister on the basis of animal rights within the Torah itself.

The Torah was given to a mixed multitude at Sinai... there were more than Jews there!


Steve

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Just out of curiousity, what do you think of this?

Psalm 147:19 He declares his word to Jacob,his statutes and rules to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation;
they do not know his rules. Praise the LORD!

Lysimichas said:

Paul unequivocally establishes that the Gentile Churches were "PATTERNED" after the Churches in Judea:

"For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe. For you, brethren, became IMITATORS of the churches of God IN CHRIST Jesus that are in JUDEA, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews" (1 Thess 2:,1314, NASB)

So who were the Churches that Paul recognized as “IN CHRIST”? the ones IN JUDEA!

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1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,


A. He states right in the text how they were imitators: They too were suffering for their faith at the hand of Jewish instigators.

B. both are in Christ, not just the ones in Judea.

C. If they were imitating everything about the Jews in Judea they would be taking vows, offering sacrifices, going to the temple, and would be zealous for the law, circumcision and the traditions of the fathers as we see the church in Judea is in Acts 21.

Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

Lysimachus said:

These early Church Fathers were schooled in such institutions as Zeno and Pythagoras, and their minds were IMMERSE in Hellenistic and Philosophical ideologies originating in Paganism.

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Some of these church fathers and members of gentile churches died for their unwillingness to worship the emperor or partake in pagan rites.

Yes, some of them in fact studied philosophy before becoming Christian. Yes, they were born outside Judea. But they died for their convictions.

from scratch said:

I asked in the previous thread if I gave you something is it yours or still mine? I think this shows that the sabbath belongs to Israel while God's by the making - not creating the sabbath.

I also asked that it be shown where Israel observed any other sabbath besides the 7th day weekly sabbath and festivals to no avail. So I'm still waiting on an answer.

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your question simply doesn't work in this case!

"if I gave you something is it yours or still mine?"

the sabbath was given to the nation of israel to observe, not as something they would actually own!


and what about this:

Mark 2:27 ( NKJV ) 27And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, that seems to mean all of us to me, and not just the jews!

if anything of ownership, i think the next verse in mark 2 answers that:

Mark 2:28 ( NKJV ) 28Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

He made it and is Lord of it, and owns it! (i know you said "the sabbath belongs to Israel while God's by the making - not creating the sabbath.")

and yes, He created the sabbath, made it, fashioned it, -no need to wrestle with semantics here.





you also made a request of sorts:

show where Israel observed any other sabbath besides the 7th day weekly sabbath and festivals


it can be shown that they had "other" sabbaths!


i believe you always cite hosea 2:11.



let's take a look at what hosea said:


Hosea 2:11 ( NKJV ) 11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease,

Her feast days,

Her New Moons,

Her Sabbaths—

All her appointed feasts.


(Tall73 said "They are not being called the Lord's festivals because they are not being celebrated to the Lord anyway, because she is not faithful to the Lord." in post #7. then Tall73 cited isaiah chap 1

and wrote about the feasts and sacrifices being "vain" and "They ceased to be what God instituted" ?????, don't get me wrong, a lot he wrote about in subsequent posts i agree with in parts, sharing some of

your sentiments from post #16!)


however, there's more to the story before you get to hosea!


if we go back to 1kings we can get more background:


1 Kings 11:43 ( NKJV ) 43Then Solomon rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David his father. And Rehoboam his son reigned in his place.


rehoboam became king after his father solomon and decided that he was going to be tougher on the people than his father solomon 1kings 12:1-15.

now picking up the story from verse 16:


1 Kings 12:16-21 ( NKJV ) 16Now when all Israel saw that the king did not listen to them, the people answered the king, saying:

“What share have we in David?

We have no inheritance in the son of Jesse.

To your tents, O Israel!

Now, see to your own house, O David!”

So Israel departed to their tents. 17But Rehoboam reigned over the children of Israel who dwelt in the cities of Judah.

18Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was in charge of the revenue; but all Israel stoned him with stones, and he died. Therefore King Rehoboam mounted his chariot in haste to flee to Jerusalem. 19So Israel

has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.

20Now it came to pass when all Israel heard that Jeroboam had come back, they sent for him and called him to the congregation, and made him king over all Israel. There was none who followed the house of

David, but the tribe of Judah only.

21And when Rehoboam came to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah with the tribe of Benjamin, one hundred and eighty thousand chosen men who were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, that

he might restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.


the kindom is split at this point, so much so, that the jews were willing to go to war with israel v21!.....to continue....

.....continuing....

so now we have jeroboam king of israel and rehoboam king of judah! but notice what the king of israel did:


1 Kings 12:25-33 ( NKJV ) 25Then Jeroboam built Shechem in the mountains of Ephraim, and dwelt there. Also he went out from there and built Penuel. 26And Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom may

return to the house of David: 27If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn back to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah, and they

will kill me and go back to Rehoboam king of Judah.”

28Therefore the king asked advice, made two calves of gold, and said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt!”

29And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. 30Now this thing became a sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. 31He made shrines on the high places, and made

priests from every class of people, who were not of the sons of Levi.

32Jeroboam ordained a feast on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the feast that was in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. So he did at Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made.

And at Bethel he installed the priests of the high places which he had made. 33So he made offerings on the altar which he had made at Bethel on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, in the month which he

had devised in his own heart. And he ordained a feast for the children of Israel, and offered sacrifices on the altar and burned incense.

with shrines on the high places and golden calves and moving feast days along with their sabbaths. (there are sources outside the bible that seems to suggest that he moved the weekly sabbath also to the

eighth day of the week) and kicking out the levi priests, jeroboam made sure that the israelites had no reason to go to jerusalem. he set dates and ordained feasts as his heart desired v33! what jeroboam did, israel never recovered.

after jeroboam, the "sin of jeroboam" returns as a recurrent theme for the rest of the book and it seems that jeroboam was the "standard" by which the other kings of israel were measured!

2 Kings 17:21-23 ( NKJV ) 21For He tore Israel from the house of David, and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king. Then Jeroboam drove Israel from following the Lord, and made them commit a great sin.

22For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them, 23until the Lord removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the

prophets. So Israel was carried away from their own land to Assyria, as it is to this day.


yes god gave israel his sabbaths and feast days, but God refers to them as His:

Exodus 31:13 ( NKJV ) 13“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the

Lord who sanctifies you.

and similar verses, Leviticus 19:3, Leviticus 19:30, Leviticus 26:2.



now let's take a look at isaiah:

Isaiah 1:13-14 ( NKJV ) 13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;

Incense is an abomination to Me.

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—

I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.

14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts

My soul hates;

They are a trouble to Me,

I am weary of bearing them.


with background info, we can understand more fully why God is saying what He is saying. He hated their feasts v14. it just wouldn't make sense for God to hate something he gave them, because God's feast's

contain sabbaths and we know nehemiah said:


Nehemiah 9:14 ( NKJV ) 14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath,

And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws,

By the hand of Moses Your servant.



God gave them something holy, so it surely wouldn't be something He hates.

He says:

Ezekiel 20:24-26 ( NKJV ) 24because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.

25“Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their

firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord.”’

Ezekiel 22:8 ( NKJV ) 8You have despised My holy things and profaned My Sabbaths.

Ezekiel 22:23-28 ( NKJV ) 23And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 24“Son of man, say to her: ‘You are a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.’ 25The conspiracy of her

prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured people; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26Her priests have violated

My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My

Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, to shed blood, to destroy people, and to get dishonest gain. 28Her prophets plastered them with

untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the Lord had not spoken.


and so, by the time you get to hosea chap 2, those days are hers and not God's.

Frogster said:

Welp, then what about the division that the law causes? How can the two be one?

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Is it the law or the cross? Yes some say it is the law and make that the issue. Those same people sem to deny the work accomplished on the cross and Jesus' own words It is finished! If it is finished how does it continue or yet ineffective and atonement still trying to be acomplished? I find that there is nothing that keeps a Jew from their heritage. I do find that under the NC they aren't obligated to the OC for salvation. There is another aspect to their covenant IMHO which is aluded to in Romans 11. This has nothing to do with salvation.

The division is caused by those who claim we're obligated to the covenant of Israel and can't be saved outside of that covenant. This is called replacement theology or in my day British Israelism. The church hasn't replaced Israel as my SDA neighbor claims. See the discussion in Romans 11:16-24, Eph 2:11-22, John 10:1-18 and Gal 3:28.

It can't be established that the covenant (law) was given to everybody. As has been established the presentation of with PS 147:19-20 and of couse my old standby Deut 5:1-5.

Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

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And yet men have built that wall up again against God and their fellowman. Not my problem. They can hit the road Jack and don't come back as far as I'm concerned. Scripture backs me up. It is for the Judaizers though only because they make it so. IMO they are trying to get me to forsake my salvation through Jesus and become justified by the law thus having no need of Jesus or His work on the cross. Gal 5:4 demands picking one or the other. A woman can't be sorta pregnant. She is or she ain't - no inbetween.

Besides, in it's own essence, it just shows people don't understand the full ramifications of the cross.

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Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

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But the Judaizing law pusher refuses to accept this and wishes to be justified by keeping the law. Let em have it! I love the free gift I have been given much more and my wages I left at the pay window for anybody who wants them to just grab them - no questions asked I simply don't care who takes them. It ain't gonna be me - momma raised no fool here (referring to me and no one else).

We can't get around the fact, that when they started to live as Jews, a church split was going on. So really, the observance in and of itself, is divisive. In other words, we would be hard pressed, to find an MJ, who does not think "Yeshua" does not want them to keep torah, so what does that mean about the rest of the church? It can only draw one conclusion.

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Dats true and churches split over the color of the carpet. Let them have their way. Dats why I parted company with the social club. Because I don't go along (join the club) doesn't mean I'm wrong or vice-a-versa. One of us isn't right - dats fur sure! No cheap grace or law fur me. My habitual way of life doesn't include stealing, lying, murder or committing adultery (including other sexual sins). I have indeed made use of I John 1:9-2:1.

Does this mean I won't argue against law being a requirement for the Christian? NOPE!!! and NOPE!!!

If they wish to try and earn their salvation it is none of my business. But when they try to get me and others to forsake Jesus for obedience to the law it is my business. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. And Jesus (God) testified that the NC is current. Jeremiah says the NC isn't the same as the OC. Movement isn't a difference. The Spirit (God) doesn't lead me back to what God (Jesus) delivered me from.

tall73 said:

1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,


A. He states right in the text how they were imitators: They too were suffering for their faith at the hand of Jewish instigators.

B. both are in Christ, not just the ones in Judea.

C. If they were imitating everything about the Jews in Judea they would be taking vows, offering sacrifices, going to the temple, and would be zealous for the law, circumcision and the traditions of the fathers as we see the church in Judea is in Acts 21.

Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.




Some of these church fathers and members of gentile churches died for their unwillingness to worship the emperor or partake in pagan rites.

Yes, some of them in fact studied philosophy before becoming Christian. Yes, they were born outside Judea. But they died for their convictions.

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I Thes 2:14 is a great catch and great supporting argument.

bugkiller said:

I really like the way you present your agrument (apology) very much.

What I would like to understand is were the Jews required to dump their ethnic heritage? I do understand that it simply wasn't possible to keep the law in its entireity upon the destruction of the Temple. But circumcision was before the law and part of the covenant with Abraham incorporated into the law when given. It also was a requirement before the law to observe passover as I understand Ex 12:48.

Then there are other issues about keeping the law such as evidenced in Ps 14:3 and even Romans 3:23. Jesus is the only successful One to keep it without violation.

bugkiller

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yes, there were issues and God points them out. speaking of the first covenant (mosaic) God said:

Hebrews 8:7-8 ( NKJV ) 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

the mosaic covenant had a fault and it was the people, just like ps. 14:3 and rom 3:23 says!

now, let's look at this:

Matthew 19:16-26 ( NKJV ) 16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

even the disciples, after that exchange, wondered who can be saved? they must've thought that no one stands a chance and Jesus confirmed their thinking in verse 26 "With men this is impossible,..."

but, if we repent and accept the sacrifice of the Christ:

Acts 2:38 ( NKJV ) 38Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


then, with God's help we can say like paul:

Galatians 2:20 ( NKJV ) 20I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

i now live by faith that Christ will live that sinless life in me, obeying all.

JohnRabbit said:

your question simply doesn't work in this case!

"if I gave you something is it yours or still mine?"

the sabbath was given to the nation of israel to observe, not as something they would actually own!


and what about this:

Mark 2:27 ( NKJV ) 27And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, that seems to mean all of us to me, and not just the jews!

if anything of ownership, i think the next verse in mark 2 answers that:

Mark 2:28 ( NKJV ) 28Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

He made it and is Lord of it, and owns it! (i know you said "the sabbath belongs to Israel while God's by the making - not creating the sabbath.")

and yes, He created the sabbath, made it, fashioned it, -no need to wrestle with semantics here.





you also made a request of sorts:

show where Israel observed any other sabbath besides the 7th day weekly sabbath and festivals


it can be shown that they had "other" sabbaths!


i believe you always cite hosea 2:11.



let's take a look at what hosea said:


Hosea 2:11 ( NKJV ) 11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease,

Her feast days,

Her New Moons,

Her Sabbaths—

All her appointed feasts.


(Tall73 said "They are not being called the Lord's festivals because they are not being celebrated to the Lord anyway, because she is not faithful to the Lord." in post #7. then Tall73 cited isaiah chap 1

and wrote about the feasts and sacrifices being "vain" and "They ceased to be what God instituted" ?????, don't get me wrong, a lot he wrote about in subsequent posts i agree with in parts, sharing some of

your sentiments from post #16!)


however, there's more to the story before you get to hosea!


if we go back to 1kings we can get more background:


1 Kings 11:43 ( NKJV ) 43Then Solomon rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David his father. And Rehoboam his son reigned in his place.


rehoboam became king after his father solomon and decided that he was going to be tougher on the people than his father solomon 1kings 12:1-15.

now picking up the story from verse 16:


1 Kings 12:16-21 ( NKJV ) 16Now when all Israel saw that the king did not listen to them, the people answered the king, saying:

“What share have we in David?

We have no inheritance in the son of Jesse.

To your tents, O Israel!

Now, see to your own house, O David!”

So Israel departed to their tents. 17But Rehoboam reigned over the children of Israel who dwelt in the cities of Judah.

18Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was in charge of the revenue; but all Israel stoned him with stones, and he died. Therefore King Rehoboam mounted his chariot in haste to flee to Jerusalem. 19So Israel

has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.

20Now it came to pass when all Israel heard that Jeroboam had come back, they sent for him and called him to the congregation, and made him king over all Israel. There was none who followed the house of

David, but the tribe of Judah only.

21And when Rehoboam came to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah with the tribe of Benjamin, one hundred and eighty thousand chosen men who were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, that

he might restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.


the kindom is split at this point, so much so, that the jews were willing to go to war with israel v21!.....to continue....

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Welcome back stranger!

I see no difference in the reason or what they were suppose to do.They were given the sabbath. Above the statement is the sabbath was given to the nation of Israel followed by a reason. The reason doesn't change the fact.

Now we've been over this before NTL the context is Jesus talking to the Jews 5,000 years after creation. That's just a tad bit slow to tell us that the sabbath was created for us. Still yet there is no record anywhere in Scripture showing the sabbath was given to the Gentiles even thru the end of the NT. Slightly amazing. Jesus commanded no where to keep the sabbath. Please provide such a verse. I think the best that anyone can come up with is a contrived implication at best.

So where can it be shown that Israel had other weekly sabbaths. I'm very interested. I sure missed that verse and can't seem to locate one with my concordance. So help me out, OK please.

I have no clue what the story of Rehoboam has to do with the sabbath. I didn't see it even mentioned. So to me it is nothing more than a rabbit trail.

Where is the command to keep another time and set it aside for worship?

from scratch said:

Welcome back stranger!

I see no difference in the reason or what they were suppose to do.They were given the sabbath. Above the statement is the sabbath was given to the nation of Israel followed by a reason. The reason doesn't change the fact.

Now we've been over this before NTL the context is Jesus talking to the Jews 5,000 years after creation. That's just a tad bit slow to tell us that the sabbath was created for us. Still yet there is no record anywhere in Scripture showing the sabbath was given to the Gentiles even thru the end of the NT. Slightly amazing. Jesus commanded no where to keep the sabbath. Please provide such a verse. I think the best that anyone can come up with is a contrived implication at best.

So where can it be shown that Israel had other weekly sabbaths. I'm very interested. I sure missed that verse and can't seem to locate one with my concordance. So help me out, OK please.

I have no clue what the story of Rehoboam has to do with the sabbath. I didn't see it even mentioned. So to me it is nothing more than a rabbit trail.

Click to expand...

ok, sorry you don't see it.

JohnRabbit said:

.....continuing....

so now we have jeroboam king of israel and rehoboam king of judah! but notice what the king of israel did:


1 Kings 12:25-33 ( NKJV ) 25Then Jeroboam built Shechem in the mountains of Ephraim, and dwelt there. Also he went out from there and built Penuel. 26And Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom may

return to the house of David: 27If these people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn back to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah, and they

will kill me and go back to Rehoboam king of Judah.”

28Therefore the king asked advice, made two calves of gold, and said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, O Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt!”

29And he set up one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. 30Now this thing became a sin, for the people went to worship before the one as far as Dan. 31He made shrines on the high places, and made

priests from every class of people, who were not of the sons of Levi.

32Jeroboam ordained a feast on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the feast that was in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. So he did at Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made.

And at Bethel he installed the priests of the high places which he had made. 33So he made offerings on the altar which he had made at Bethel on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, in the month which he

had devised in his own heart. And he ordained a feast for the children of Israel, and offered sacrifices on the altar and burned incense.

with shrines on the high places and golden calves and moving feast days along with their sabbaths. (there are sources outside the bible that seems to suggest that he moved the weekly sabbath also to the

eighth day of the week) and kicking out the levi priests, jeroboam made sure that the israelites had no reason to go to jerusalem. he set dates and ordained feasts as his heart desired v33! what jeroboam did, israel never recovered.

after jeroboam, the "sin of jeroboam" returns as a recurrent theme for the rest of the book and it seems that jeroboam was the "standard" by which the other kings of israel were measured!

2 Kings 17:21-23 ( NKJV ) 21For He tore Israel from the house of David, and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king. Then Jeroboam drove Israel from following the Lord, and made them commit a great sin.

22For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them, 23until the Lord removed Israel out of His sight, as He had said by all His servants the

prophets. So Israel was carried away from their own land to Assyria, as it is to this day.


yes god gave israel his sabbaths and feast days, but God refers to them as His:

Exodus 31:13 ( NKJV ) 13“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the

Lord who sanctifies you.

and similar verses, Leviticus 19:3, Leviticus 19:30, Leviticus 26:2.



now let's take a look at isaiah:

Isaiah 1:13-14 ( NKJV ) 13 Bring no more futile sacrifices;

Incense is an abomination to Me.

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—

I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.

14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts

My soul hates;

They are a trouble to Me,

I am weary of bearing them.


with background info, we can understand more fully why God is saying what He is saying. He hated their feasts v14. it just wouldn't make sense for God to hate something he gave them, because God's feast's

contain sabbaths and we know nehemiah said:


Nehemiah 9:14 ( NKJV ) 14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath,

And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws,

By the hand of Moses Your servant.



God gave them something holy, so it surely wouldn't be something He hates.

He says:

Ezekiel 20:24-26 ( NKJV ) 24because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.

25“Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; 26and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their

firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord.”’

Ezekiel 22:8 ( NKJV ) 8You have despised My holy things and profaned My Sabbaths.

Ezekiel 22:23-28 ( NKJV ) 23And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 24“Son of man, say to her: ‘You are a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.’ 25The conspiracy of her

prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured people; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26Her priests have violated

My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My

Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, to shed blood, to destroy people, and to get dishonest gain. 28Her prophets plastered them with

untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the Lord had not spoken.


and so, by the time you get to hosea chap 2, those days are hers and not God's.

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Can you please explain why Incense is an abomination to Me. If it is being offered to another god. I think it is being offered to God.

I do see what you're saying. However the eight day isn't a weekly sabbath any where in Scripture that I know of. Hosea makes no indication of an 8th day sabbath and neither does any other Scripture. One can't move the 7th day to the 8th.

The their sabbaths are the sabbaths belonging to the feasts. They have nothing to do with the weekly sabbath.

So what was moved or they tried to move? the weekly sabbath? I didn't see any support that they moved their sabbath as claimed. (there are sources outside the bible that seems to suggest that he moved the weekly sabbath also to the eighth day of the week). Why is something besides the Bible needed to prove this? The sabbath is a very important big deal!

JohnRabbit said:

ok, sorry you don't see it.

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Please produce the verse. MK 2:27,28 Jesus is talking to the Jews and not the world. It is Jews that ask the question not a Gentile. Who did Jesus say He was sent to? The lost sheep of Israel, wasn't it. This in no way adversely effects the effect of the cross on mankind.

visionary said:

Where is the command to keep another time and set it aside for worship?

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the account is described in 1kings 12:25-33. it wasn't a command of God, but under the direction of Jeroboam, the king of israel.


jeroboam changed the feast days and the appointed times, he even kicked out the levites!


2 Chronicles 11:14-15 ( NKJV ) 14For the Levites left their common-lands and their possessions and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them from serving as priests to the Lord. 15Then he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made.

and look at this:

2 Kings 17:21-22 ( NKJV ) 21For He tore Israel from the house of David, and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king. Then Jeroboam drove Israel from following the Lord, and made them commit a great sin. 22For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they did not depart from them,

now you have to remember that in the first part of 1kings 12, rehoboam made the people mad, by threatening to be harsher on them than his father, solomon.

so, it doesn't seem unreasonable that, after they reassembled themselves under jeroboam, the people would follow him!

from scratch said:

Please produce the verse. MK 2:27,28 Jesus is talking to the Jews and not the world. It is Jews that ask the question not a Gentile. Who did Jesus say He was sent to? The lost sheep of Israel, wasn't it. This in no way adversely effects to effect of the cross on mankind.

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He may have been talking to the jews but he didn't say that the "the sabbath was made for the jews".

that much we do know.

from scratch said:

Can you please explain why Incense is an abomination to Me. If it is being offered to another god. I think it is being offered to God.

I do see what you're saying. However the eight day isn't a weekly sabbath any where in Scripture that I know of. Hosea makes no indication of an 8th day sabbath and neither does any other Scripture. One can't move the 7th day to the 8th.

The their sabbaths are the sabbaths belonging to the feasts. They have nothing to do with the weekly sabbath.

So what was moved or they tried to move? the weekly sabbath? I didn't see any support that they moved their sabbath as claimed. (there are sources outside the bible that seems to suggest that he moved the weekly sabbath also to the eighth day of the week). Why is something besides the Bible needed to prove this? The sabbath is a very important big deal!

Click to expand...

now i know what you think about the incense, but look at this:

1 Kings 11:2, 5-8 ( NKJV ) 2from the nations of whom the Lord had said to the children of Israel, “You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love.

5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

these high places and incense is what the pagans used to worship their gods!

i know there's no eighth day sabbath mentioned in the bible, and there is also no feast days in the eighth month.

and, i also understand that there is no implicit declaration on the fact that the weekly sabbath was moved. but by reading and putting things into context, we can understand that jeroboam most likely did just that. now moving the weekly sabbath to the eighth day is simply the first day of the week (sun), bottom line is, whatever God set up for them he changed.

if he's moving feast days from the seventh month to the eighth, then surely the sabbaths that fall on those feasts moved also. the seventh month feast (num 28:16, num 29)

and if God is saying in isaiah that he hates "their" days and in hosea that He's going to put a stop to "her" days, i'm convinced. i can't believe that God would give them something holy (neh 19:4) and then turn around and say that He hates it.

just wouldn't make sense to me.

JohnRabbit said:

He may have been talking to the jews but he didn't say that the "the sabbath was made for the jews".

that much we do know.

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Then there is no context and indeed the only thing to consider is the bare naked words. NOT! Have I said nothing?Who asked the question? Who is the answer addressed to? Is the determination based sole on the word anthropos? Why wouldn't those spoken to give meaning to the word anthropos? Is it a secret God doesn't want the world to know for 4,000 years? To whom was the sabbath given? And why? Include all applicable Scripture.

JohnRabbit said:

now i know what you think about the incense, but look at this:

1 Kings 11:2, 5-8 ( NKJV ) 2from the nations of whom the Lord had said to the children of Israel, “You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love.

5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6Solomon did evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not fully follow the Lord, as did his father David. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

these high places and incense is what the pagans used to worship their gods!

i know there's no eighth day sabbath mentioned in the bible, and there is also no feast days in the eighth month.

and, i also understand that there is no implicit declaration on the fact that the weekly sabbath was moved. but by reading and putting things into context, we can understand that jeroboam most likely did just that. now moving the weekly sabbath to the eighth day is simply the first day of the week (sun), bottom line is, whatever God set up for them he changed.

if he's moving feast days from the seventh month to the eighth, then surely the sabbaths that fall on those feasts moved also. the seventh month feast (num 28:16, num 29)

and if God is saying in isaiah that he hates "their" days and in hosea that He's going to put a stop to "her" days, i'm convinced. i can't believe that God would give them something holy (neh 19:4) and then turn around and say that He hates it.

just wouldn't make sense to me.

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Wasn't incense offered daily in the Tabernacle and or Temple? I made no reference to their practices in worshipping false gods nor did I suggest that they took incense form those places to offer in the Tabernacle or Temple.

Now what do I understand about incense that you know?

cyberlizard said:

there are a number of deficits and innacuracies in this post... let me list them...

'wasn't necessary for an adult to be circumcised to prove salvation'

'circumcision to a Jew meant 'salvation'

circumcision was necessary to participate in the covenant of Israel'

all of these are untrue and represent no more than caricatures of Jewish beliefs spouted by Christians but not actually borne out of a Jewish understanding of things from within the writings they have produced. Each can be refuted to simply reading the Talmud. Mine is a Soncino edition and whilst I can provide references, I am not going too. Needless to say, he are a few arguments...

circumcision neither gains eternal life nor loses it...

there was a minority opinion within the sages that all that was required to become 'an Israelite' was baptism (NOT circumcision). This argument was made on the basis that women need not become circumcised (as though it was possible anyway).

what meant salvation to a Jew, was faithfulness. Whilst it encompassed circumcision, we need to all ensure we are discussing the same thing. The NT writings cloud the issue and we miss it as we presume they are talking about the same thing. In the OT, circumcision was for Jews. During the late period, Ezra/Nehemiah and into the inter-testamental period, circumcision was for Jews and people who wanted to convert. By the time the NT period arrives, 'circumcision' has become ritual shorthand and a technical defintion for the 'process of conversion'. Every time we read the word circumcision, we need to be as sure as we can be as to which meaning is meant, whether it be cutting, converts, conversion, proselytes, god-fearers. If we do not get the right aspect we will fudge the entire passage.

the covenant with Israel had within it, scope for both Israel AND the stranger who sojourned in their midst. This would be the non-Jew! The covenant also had both scope for Jew and animal. In this regard, the covenant was not purely directed at liberation for people, but liberation for animals only... in fact the RSPCA was founded by an Anglican minister on the basis of animal rights within the Torah itself.

The Torah was given to a mixed multitude at Sinai... there were more than Jews there!


Steve

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I find these verses in my Bible: Ex12:48 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Acts 15:1 - And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Moses wasn't told to call a mixed multitude to the mountian was he? God said call the Children of Israel.Ex 19:3 - And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

v6 - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Where is the mixed multitude? I didn't see it.

JohnRabbit said:

yes, there were issues and God points them out. speaking of the first covenant (mosaic) God said:

Hebrews 8:7-8 ( NKJV ) 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

the mosaic covenant had a fault and it was the people, just like ps. 14:3 and rom 3:23 says!

now, let's look at this:

Matthew 19:16-26 ( NKJV ) 16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

even the disciples, after that exchange, wondered who can be saved? they must've thought that no one stands a chance and Jesus confirmed their thinking in verse 26 "With men this is impossible,..."

but, if we repent and accept the sacrifice of the Christ:

Acts 2:38 ( NKJV ) 38Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


then, with God's help we can say like paul:

Galatians 2:20 ( NKJV ) 20I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

i now live by faith that Christ will live that sinless life in me, obeying all.

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Then I take that Jesus' work on the cross really doesn't have much meaning since one can secure eternal life by observing the 10 Cs. Well then I guess I'd better get busy or I'm not gonna make. Just think all this time I've been trusting Jesus to do what He said and have no hope.