Soul Sleep?

Manasseh_ · Apr 6, 2011

POSTIOS said:
Well Manasseh,

It is not an issue for me. Hebraisms and figures of speech that lead to a spiritual truth, not a literal one.

No contradictions Manasseh, so either figuratively we are conciousness after death, or figuratively the dead bodies breaking forth and rising from the graves.

I choose the latter.

a direct prophecy isn't a "figure of speech"or a "hebraism" whatever the definition of that is.............?

Christ foretold an event that must transpire, prophecies are direct, even if symbolism is used, a LITERAL and not a "figurative" event must come to pass , otherwise it would be falsely foretelling something that isn't going to happen.......that's always the test of prophecy.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

how can these events foretold happen and at the same time the dead are already alive (conscious being).........doesn't that seem redundant to require resurrection in order to give conscious being back , but at the same time they already have it, why would I have need of receiving something I already possess ?

chalkstc · Apr 7, 2011

Thx for your view Manasseh,

Though I don't agree with your Jn 5 speech. The voice of the Lord will call both groups at one time called the "hour is coming". No 1000 years in between is even alluded to unless you insert Rev 20 into the mix which wass not written yet.

Have you heard of "audience relevance"? Of course you have. So how would the disciples and whoever else was present understand this certain man issue? Just as it poses...two men die. Both go to one place called Abe's Bosom. Gulf in between separates both. Both being there at the same time kicks dirt in the face of your future resurrection time as you think they are many years apart for the resurrection of the just versus the wicked.

I take it at face value.................soul consciousness after death of the body. Communication takes place and the beat goes on. Now we quote that God is not the God of the dead.......................

Matt 22:32

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

KJV

Mark 12:26

And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

KJV

Luke 20:36

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

KJV

Though speaking of the future resurrection, He also speaks in the present tense that all live unto Him. Now at this juncture Abe, Isaac and Jacob are certainly dead and buried. If unconscious as you believe, how are they called the living?

And what does earlier Jn 5 mean..............................

John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS passed from death unto life.

KJV

IS passed. Again we have present tense. But then you say that when this beleiver dies physically, he is dead both in body, and in soul and spirit till the resurrection?

Please answer my querry about Ezek and the soul that sinneth shall surely die. What happens to the soul who doesn't sin and dies physically before we move on if you choose to continue?

Thx for your input,
Frankie
PS
Also interpret "ETERNAL LIFE" for me?

POSTIOS · Apr 7, 2011

Manasseh_ said:
a direct prophecy isn't a "figure of speech"or a "hebraism" whatever the definition of that is.............?

We have a choice.

Either the prophesies of resurrecting long dead, ashes to ashes - dust to dust flesh bodies is figurative, or the prophesies of the consious dead in heaven prior to His 2nd Coming are figurative.

Since the dead come from heaven with Christ, I choose the latter.
see 1Thes4, 1Cor15, Mat24, Rev19.

A hebraism is a figure of speech that would be understood by the Israelites, but not neccissarily by the other nations.

Christ foretold an event that must transpire, prophecies are direct, even if symbolism is used, a LITERAL and not a "figurative" event must come to pass , otherwise it would be falsely foretelling something that isn't going to happen.......that's always the test of prophecy.

I certainly believe in the resurrection.
Just not the way you do. The flesh is done away with at death.
The Spiritual body is the body that is raised, not the flesh.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

how can these events foretold happen and at the same time the dead are already alive (conscious being).........doesn't that seem redundant to require resurrection in order to give conscious being back , but at the same time they already have it, why would I have need of receiving something I already possess ?

Not at all. They are being raised back to life here. But not their flesh. An incorruptible Body is raised, not corruptible flesh.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Mikecpking · Apr 7, 2011

chalkstc said:
................

Nothing like being vague Mikey.......................

There is no neutral side here. What is your view or opinion?

Thx,
Frankie

Hi Frankie,
Thank you for the reply.

'Soul ' sleep is a misnoma, because biblically speaking, there is no such thing as a disembodied soul. 'Soul' either means the whole living person (Gen 2:7, ez 18:4), or a corpse ( a dead soul) or the life bound up in body tranpsorted by blood (DT12:23, Lev 17:11)

When someone dies, they go to Sheol and are unconcious.

Lets look at scripture:

Psalm 115:
17 It is not the dead who praise the LORD,
those who go down to the place of silence;

Sheol is silent.

Psalm 146:4 (King James Version)

4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

Thoughts perish!!

When are people aroused from their sleep?

Job 14:10-12 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

10 But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.
Daniel 12:2 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come outthose who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

So when is that?

John 6:

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day.

What does Paul say?

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality,

The last trumpet on the last day.

So, with those scriptures you quote, how does that fit? Paul's desire to be with Christ means when he dies, his next waking moment will be with Christ on the last day. He would not have noticed the passage of time in the grave. To us, he is alseep in the dust of the earth like everyone else who lived and died. The scripture about God, being a God of the living means that Abraham et al are alive unto God, they will have the resurrection of life. They are live unto God, not alive now.

chalkstc · Apr 7, 2011

Thx Mike,

Great post and some good points and quotes. But we need to get thru the rest of Nt quotes and see which holds water imo.

And I cannot agree that Paul wanted to die and not finish his ministry if he had HIS OWN CHOICE. We are all going to die and in God's timing. And remember Paul also said to be absent from the body.....etc

Now resurrection is about the body raising from the grave.
SO WHAT Part of us is absent when death of the body happens? What house from heaven when we put off this tabernacle? No allusion that He speaks about the last day resurrection but when we die before that day.

He seems to agree with James.................the body without the spirit is dead. And please don't tell me that spirit here is just air in or air out....breath.

Frankie
PS the OT quotes you gave make perfect sense about silence and not waking if the conscious part of man is separated when the body dies.

Also explain Ezek about the soul of the wicked dying but says nothing about the soul of the righteous. Also "these bones shall live" nothing about the inner man is stated or alluded to. There is more so let's take a couple at a time. Thx again for not being vague

Manasseh_ · Apr 7, 2011

chalkstc said:
Thx for your view Manasseh,

Though I don't agree with your Jn 5 speech. The voice of the Lord will call both groups at one time called the "hour is coming". No 1000 years in between is even alluded to unless you insert Rev 20 into the mix which wass not written yet.

If all took part in the same resurrection at the same time then........

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20 didn't have to be written for the apostles to understand that there would be reward for saints and judgment for the wicked, many of Christ's parables taught this premise.

If Christ called both groups at one time then they would all be taking part in the first resurrection and all would be BLESSED and not subject to death any longer , the wicked receive immortality too (eternal life) ? the wicked will be blessed ? they will also be kings and priests to God ?

chalkstc said:
Have you heard of "audience relevance"? Of course you have. So how would the disciples and whoever else was present understand this certain man issue? Just as it poses...two men die. Both go to one place called Abe's Bosom. Gulf in between separates both. Both being there at the same time kicks dirt in the face of your future resurrection time as you think they are many years apart for the resurrection of the just versus the wicked.

I take it at face value.................soul consciousness after death of the body. Communication takes place and the beat goes on. Now we quote that God is not the God of the dead.......................

Are we going to continue this parable isolating it from other relevant scripture ? If you're going to take it at 'face value' then your face value conclusion is going to contradict scripture elsewhere.

we agree on this...............Christ was the one who told the story
Christ had not yet been crucified or raised from the dead

Your face value conclusion would then offer another way of gaining life.

Christ isn't the firstfruit of the dead, these men are
Christ's resurrection wasn't needed for these men
Christ resurrection and future resurrection of saints is not really need
Immortality (eternal life) is no longer a gift of God , we already possess it
Death is not death but only a path to a life in a different state
If we can find out how Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man regained life without Christ then Christ is no longer needed for resurrection at all
The list would just continue with all kinds of implications we the parable were taken at "face value"

chalkstc said:
Matt 22:32

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

KJV

Mark 12:26

And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

KJV

Luke 20:36

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

KJV

Though speaking of the future resurrection, He also speaks in the present tense that all live unto Him. Now at this juncture Abe, Isaac and Jacob are certainly dead and buried. If unconscious as you believe, how are they called the living?

[/quote]

God is not the God of the dead but of the living is all to easily understood when we look at who this was directed toward.

It was the Sadducees that came to Christ here.........the sect of Saducees didn't believe in resurrection where the Pharisees did believe.

Christ immediately shows they are wrong, (You do err, not knowing the scripture)..............he was referencing Moses in Exodus when Moses called God the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob............but the people of Israel at that time knew these fathers were dead.......but Christ says God isn't the God of the dead, he is the God, the God of the living.........because Abraham , Isaac and Jacob will by INHERITANCE be made alive again through Christ.

This is the means by which God is not God of dead people who can't thank him, can't give him praise, can't remember him, He is God of the living by means of Christ who is the resurrection to life.

Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

now that the dead ARE RAISED, this is why God is the God of the Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who by Christ will be living and this is why God is the God of the living because they will be living by resurrection through Christ, so the Sadducees were in err, they were wrong, there is resurrection and their doctrine was false , saying there would be no resurrection,...........this was the whole context of the encounter of Christ and the Sadducees

but it didn't imply that Abraham Isaac and Jacob were already living or had conscious being

Mikecpking · Apr 7, 2011

chalkstc said:
Thx Mike,

Great post and some good points and quotes. But we need to get thru the rest of Nt quotes and see which holds water imo.

And I cannot agree that Paul wanted to die and not finish his ministry if he had HIS OWN CHOICE. We are all going to die and in God's timing. And remember Paul also said to be absent from the body.....etc

Hi Frankie,
The NT is clear that the resurrection is on the last day:

John 6:

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day

Now resurrection is about the body raising from the grave.
SO WHAT Part of us is absent when death of the body happens? What house from heaven when we put off this tabernacle? No allusion that He speaks about the last day resurrection but when we die before that day.

It was Plato and Aristotle who polluted Jewish and early Christian thought with the fascination of 'parts'. The original Hebrew meanings have long been lost. Paul spoke about 'an incorruptable resurrection body given to us. What we are in the grave between physical death and the resurrection is a dead 'nephesh' (corpse) until decompostion to dust and the Hebrews believed the dead took on a new status as a 'rephaim' dwelling in Sheol. Death is not non existence, but we have a twilight existence awaiting resurrection. The Hebrews called the dead 'the sleepers in the dust'. Paul was expressing his desire to be with Christ and depart would mean to him he would die and his next concious thought would be the last day and the resurrection. Nowhere does it say in the bible a soul goes to heaven, rather the nephesh dies at death (Numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30).

He seems to agree with James.................the body without the spirit is dead. And please don't tell me that spirit here is just air in or air out....breath.

I won't tell you the spirit is breath, I will let God's word tell you that!

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 (New International Version, ©2011)

19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[a]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

Footnotes:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 Or spirit

Do a body without breath is obviously a dead body.

Here is something else:

Job 27

Jobs Final Word to His Friends

1 And Job continued his discourse:
2 As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice,
the Almighty, who has made my life bitter,
3 as long as I have life within me,
the breath of God in my nostrils,

Job is clear that God's ruach is the breath of life and when the ruach given by God departs back to him, the man or animal is dead. 'Spirit' is indeed breath, but what the spirit does (God's 'antenna' and influence over people to have moral choices, etc) is described in in scripture.

Let's look at Gen 2:7

Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Moulded dust plus breath of life = a living soul (nephesh)

at death:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (King James Version)

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The living soul dies, dust a nd breath return to their former states and sources.

Scripture cannot be clearer than that.

So you must handle scripture carefully so taking a verse in isolation and putting a different interpretation on it contradicting these clear statements will only distort the plain teaching of the bible.

Frankie
PS the OT quotes you gave make perfect sense about silence and not waking if the conscious part of man is separated when the body dies.

Also explain Ezek about the soul of the wicked dying but says nothing about the soul of the righteous. Also "these bones shall live" nothing about the inner man is stated or alluded to. There is more so let's take a couple at a time. Thx again for not being vague

Frankie,
The ezekiel verses are about the resurrection to eternal life as promised in 1 Cor 15. That is our hope and what we believe in. We are told to put on immortality! The bible does not teach anything about a disembodied soul! Dualism is not found the bible..period!
Here are some other scriptures to prove the conciousness dies. besides Psalm 146:4

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (King James Version)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Timothew · Apr 7, 2011

Soul Sleep? What is that? Some sort of disparaging characterization of other people's views?

I believe in the coming resurrection of the dead, just like the Nicene Creed states.

POSTIOS · Apr 7, 2011

Mike and Manasseh

Do you guys acknowledge the scriptures that SEEM to show consiousness after death.
I certainly acknowledge the scriptures that SEEM to show unconsiousnessafter death.

There are BOTH.

and we should not have contradiction.

So, one is figurative and one is literal. which is it.

And Mike, the resurrection is not the issue. Consiousness right now, for the dead, is.

Mikecpking · Apr 7, 2011

POSTIOS said:
Mike and Manasseh

Do you guys acknowledge the scriptures that SEEM to show consiousness after death.
I certainly acknowledge the scriptures that SEEM to show unconsiousnessafter death.

There are BOTH.

and we should not have contradiction.

So, one is figurative and one is literal. which is it.

And Mike, the resurrection is not the issue. Consiousness right now, for the dead, is.

Hi Postios,
Good observation, but clearly in the light of the biblical statements about the dead being unconciousness of the dead and Paul's timing and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus on the other side can be explained without contradiction.

POSTIOS · Apr 7, 2011

There are many more scriptures than just Lazarus and the rich man to contend with.

Mikecpking · Apr 7, 2011

POSTIOS said:
There are many more scriptures than just Lazarus and the rich man to contend with.

Can you list them, and I will answer them.

chalkstc · Apr 7, 2011

Mike,

I can't believe you do not see that man's spirit is not more than breath.............

Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, (breath) that we are the children of God:

KJV

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (breath) and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

KJV

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,(breath) and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

KJV

John 11:33

When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, (breath)and was troubled,

KJV

Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit (breath)within me.

KJV

(do these texts make sense by substituing breath for spirit?) Nada imo.

How do you interpret the "inner man" of Paul's? How about Peter's "hidden man of the heart"?

This is what the spirit/soul of man is.............The real you which is inside you. It resides in your tent or tabernacle which Peter said he would soon PUT off. He spoke of his body and not the Peter of the inside.

Now with your soul sleep view, you are really saying it dies with the body. Sleep is only the figure, but you speak of non -existence. Then where does the real you, your personhood or personality go? Nowhere, for you consider it dead, like you never were the unique thing God created.

How foolish is that? Your same conscious spirit will be placed within a spiritual body that is raised out of the corruption it was in the grave. Christ brings your inner man with Him when He descends.

Paul says we hope and wait for the "redemption of the body". No mention of the inner man as being dead with it. If your personality dies, it's like you never were.

If Christ committed His "spirit", not the HS, to the Father, then where did the spirit of the repentant thief go. Or did both their bodies go into the same tomb dead? Then 3 days later only Christ arose out of that tomb.

Christ was glorified, the thief was not. But where is he if Christ said he would be with Him in paradise the same day that they both died? Where is this place? ..........................the grave, 6 feet under? I think not. Read Rev 2. 2 Cor 12...............

Thoughts brother?
Frankie
PS....next.....read Jonah and his calling out within the fish. Check out the terms he uses. I think he really died, but yet speaketh

chalkstc · Apr 7, 2011

Manasseh,

Both just and unjust are raised on the same last day (Jn 12:48) The first resurrection is only for saints and is in contrast to the rest of the dead who are the wicked who die at Armageddon and aren't raised till the end of the 1000.

Dan 12 shows no gap between the just and wicked's res, nor does Jn 5. Only men insert this gap because of Rev 20 and the 1000. Audience relevance comes into play here.......................Dan's and Jesus' audience never heard of Rev 20 to be able to insert the gap that you do after the fact.

Jesus says "hour" = a short period of time...certainly not 1000 years as a day or vice, versa.

Frankie
PS you have the wrong idea of resurrection by saying if the soul is awake that we already have complete Eternal life and then there is no need for the resurrection. Resurrection is only for the body that puts on incorruption. The soul is not corrupt if we have put on Christ before death of the body. Only the body decays. How does your dead soul/spirit decay in your view? How come the thief went to paradise and you go to a 6 foot hole?

chalkstc · Apr 8, 2011

All,

I really appreciate all who have replied on this thread, even if we still disagree. I by no means am saying I am right and others are wrong. What I am saying is that I see conflict from some Ot texts and the NT texts.

I believe the NT explains or makes clear the OT. And the OT authors had a more limited understanding of the inspired truths they penned. Peter confirms that premise. So why the confusion? Both themes can't be right.

I think we all can agree that all portions on this theme must agree or we don't have truth on the matter. But we don't seem to be any closer. Those that believe the soul sleeps, have almost exhausted their texts, but i have not exhauseted the ones I am posing yet. So please be patient till we get thru all on this theme.................thx!

Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

KJV

We should know that there is no punctuation in the Grk text so we certainly cannot interpret this text as to timing by a simple comma. So what is Jesus telling this newly saved believer? Jesus says nothing by way of affirmation about remembering this soul when He is to come into His Kingdom.

Instead, He TODAY shall you be with me in paradise, present tense. What or where is paradise? Not much volume is given in the Word of God, so we must rely on what we see in the very few texts.......

But first let's see what happens next in this chapter.........................

Luke 23:46

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

KJV

Eccl 12:7

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

KJV

Jesus commits His Spirit to the Father. and then gives up the ghost or His breath. This shows that the physical air is exhaled and He breathed His last and died. But to say this is the same as the spirit He committed is the same as ghost, is errant imo.

If spirit is the same as physical or earthly breath, then choose any text with that term from either Testament and see if "breath" makes any sense at all. Spirt is likened unto the wind,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,can't see it, don't know where it goes, but we know it actions....................it is within man, in his tabernacle but leaves that tabernacle when the breath ceases.......(see Ja 2)

Now we know Jesus body was placed in the tomb. Was all His esence asleep? Certainly not, for He tells the thief they were gonig to paradise. How and where and what part of each man went anyplace besides to grave?

I pose that the inner man of each man went to Abe's bosom which was still in the heart of the earth. Two compartments in this place......................comfort and torments. Paradise certainly was the comfort portion. Three days like Jonah was Christ in the heart of the earth. Does he say tomb or grave is where He was? No. So He must of gone to paradise that very day as He told the thief. Not in body, but by soul consciousness imo.

Now we see thew Aposstle Paul giving a strange and miraculous testimony.....................

2 Cor 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

KJV

Paul is speaking of himself, and says he did not know whether he was IN the body or out of the body when he was caught up. This shows that his inner man could have been separated from his body. But some here say this can never be. Paul thus shows that the real you who presently resides within the body can also exist without it imo and I don't think this is a stretch, but logical from what is penned.

And just where was he caught up to? PARADISE. But how is it up here and down in the Lk passage? i believe this text solves the dilema though many here will not agree..........................

Eph 4:8

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9

(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

KJV

I believe the "captivity" he speaks of was all the righteous souls in Abe's bosom or paradise were taken up as a great "cloud" of witnesses when Christ ascended to the Father...............thus, paradise moved from below to above when Paul was caught up to it.

Here is the last text with the term paradise..........................

Rev 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

KJV

That's it folks. All we know is what I quoted. I reported, you decide

After we dijest this, I'd like to go back to Adam and pose exactly what was given to him when God gave the formed lifeless clay CPR or His breadth............................

JMHO,
Frankie

PS please read Jonah and the fish thing for a future debate. See in light of this topic if you see something you might have missed before...........................

Manasseh_ · Apr 8, 2011

chalkstc said:
Manasseh,

Both just and unjust are raised on the same last day (Jn 12:48) The first resurrection is only for saints and is in contrast to the rest of the dead who are the wicked who die at Armageddon and aren't raised till the end of the 1000.

Dan 12 shows no gap between the just and wicked's res, nor does Jn 5. Only men insert this gap because of Rev 20 and the 1000. Audience relevance comes into play here.......................Dan's and Jesus' audience never heard of Rev 20 to be able to insert the gap that you do after the fact.

Jesus says "hour" = a short period of time...certainly not 1000 years as a day or vice, versa.

Frankie

it seems that you are implying that prophecy is somehow reliant on "audience relevance" whether or not any audience understands prophecy doesn't dictate whether the prophecy should or shouldn't be given. God didn't stop his prophecy and ponder the idea that since Rev 20 hadn't been written yet that those listening would tend to believe resurrection would mean something else, even after it's been written people still don't believe or understand.

Two separate resurrections were name with detail , the first where righteous receive certain reward for their faith and another where wicked receive judgment for their disbelief. Even if I had no knowledge of Rev 20 I still wouldn't consider that both take part in one single general resurrection at the same time, I'd only consider that I heard of 2 resurrections even though I wouldn't fully understand when they would occur.

chalkstc said:
PS you have the wrong idea of resurrection by saying if the soul is awake that we already have complete Eternal life and then there is no need for the resurrection. Resurrection is only for the body that puts on incorruption. The soul is not corrupt if we have put on Christ before death of the body. Only the body decays. How does your dead soul/spirit decay in your view? How come the thief went to paradise and you go to a 6 foot hole?

if a soul is "awake" as you say then this soul never seen death, regardless of whether it is the soul of a believer or unbeliever......if the soul does not die then the soul is already immortal........immortals don't die.........the implication isn't made to only believers, but also to the wicked, hence the doctrine that follows the immortal soul doctrine where the wicked are already in "hell" be tormented, this implies that their soul didn't die either, it not only implies immortality already being in possession of men but this also implies that God isn't even waiting for the day of judgment on the wicked, the instant they die he's already "torturing" them.

the thief did not go to some "purgatory" called paradise......he was on a cross soon to be killed, to stop breathing.............

the thief said first to Christ remember me when you come into your kingdom...........then Christ immediately promised him that he too would be in that kingdom, Christ simply called it paradise........Christ responded to the thief's request, he wasn't on the cross himself and teaching about some other place called paradise

All your questions are still being asked with the immortal soul premise already in place as their foundation. You're still not regarding all scripture which says otherwise.

the very first question that has to be honestly asked and answered is

Is the soul immortal ? and right at the beginning in Genesis we're taught that it is NOT immortal.

a soul is nothing more than a living breathing being (Genesis 2:7,)

in all these chapters of Genesis where the word CREATURE appears they are also called "souls" nephesh ( a living breathing being)
Gen 1:21
Gen 1:24
Gen 2:19
Gen 9:10
Gen 9:12
Gen 9:15
Gen 9:16

God created both man and beast as "souls" living breathing beings, we would never imply that animals, after they die have a part of them that still lives on with conscious being , why are we doing it with men ?...........the immortal soul doctrine which has it's origins right at the beginning also.......

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

that's where the immortal soul doctrine began, from the father of lies himself...........you won't die, and not only that.......you will be like gods yourself........gods (elohiym) judges, like the immortal ONE

souls die..........Gen 2:17,Gen 3:19 ,Eze 18:4,Eze 18:20
a soul can be destroyed..........Jos 10:30,Jos 10:35,Matt 10:28,Rev 16:3
souls can be seen.....they can be counted because they are seen..........
Gen 46:15,Gen 46:22,Exo 1:5,Act 27:37
souls have blood...............Jer 2:34
souls go to the grave at death....not to "paradise" , hell or heaven.......
JOB 33:22,PSALMS 22:29 ,PSALMS 49:15,PSALMS 89:48
souls have no conscious being.............Psalms 6:5,Isa 38:18 ,Psa 115:17,Ecc 9:5

All this scripture teaches what a soul is, what happens to souls, and this is only a small part of what scripture teaches about a soul

the honest question should be "why is the immortal soul doctrine not in agreement with what scripture is teaching?" why is it implied that certain verses say the soul is already immortal when so much scripture says it isn't ?

Truth Files · Apr 8, 2011

The story of Lazerth and the rich man is a parable, not an actual event

The Lord used this to describe the dire contrast between eternal life and His lake of fire

Eccleasiates
9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

John
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1Corinthians
15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Mikecpking · Apr 8, 2011

chalkstc said:
Mike,

I can't believe you do not see that man's spirit is not more than breath.............

It is the breath of God in us, It is more than just 'air', but its effects on the person are exactly what you state

Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, (breath) that we are the children of God:

KJV

QED. This is the effects of God's breath of life in us.

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (breath) and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

KJV

This is not a doctrinal statement about man, the adjective and verb are singular, with the emphasis to keep the whole of you, not 'parts' of you sound and blameless.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,(breath) and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

KJV

Again, it is rhetrouical, not literal. God's word (scripture) has the power to permeate into every dimension of our being, not literally cut someone to pieces. Would be one very sharp book!

John 11:33
When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, (breath)and was troubled,

KJV

Again, this is what God's breath in us does, not what is it!

Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit (breath)within me.

KJV

(do these texts make sense by substituing breath for spirit?) Nada imo.

I have pointed out what 'spirit' (ruach breath is with the earlier verses. God's ruach in every living being has an effect. It is God's 'antenna' for commincating, choosing between right and wrong etc. It is not 'us', but God;'s breath of life (Gen 2:7, Eccles 12;7)

How do you interpret the "inner man" of Paul's? How about Peter's "hidden man of the heart"?

Heart (Hebrew = Leb) is the center of conciousness, this is where all thoughts take place to the Hebrew.

This is what the spirit/soul of man is.............The real you which is inside you. It resides in your tent or tabernacle which Peter said he would soon PUT off. He spoke of his body and not the Peter of the inside.

Frankie, I wiould like to direct you to a web site which has an exhaustive study of the Hebrew word 'nephesh' and you will see that the Hebrew soul is very different to the idea that a soul is the 'real you' inside a body.

Dr. Tory Hoff

Now with your soul sleep view, you are really saying it dies with the body. Sleep is only the figure, but you speak of non -existence. Then where does the real you, your personhood or personality go? Nowhere, for you consider it dead, like you never were the unique thing God created.

Death is not non existence. God records every thing. We are set for eternal life. I would ask you to perhaps googel " Nephesh soul immortal " and see what comes up. The truth is we are set for resurrection on the last day.

How foolish is that? Your same conscious spirit will be placed within a spiritual body that is raised out of the corruption it was in the grave. Christ brings your inner man with Him when He descends.

Paul says we hope and wait for the "redemption of the body". No mention of the inner man as being dead with it. If your personality dies, it's like you never were.

The inner man (nous) is as a detailed interplay btween words like flesh, body, heart, soul and spirit interreact. I could email you a study on this which will clear this point up, but too long here.

If Christ committed His "spirit", not the HS, to the Father, then where did the spirit of the repentant thief go. Or did both their bodies go into the same tomb dead? Then 3 days later only Christ arose out of that tomb.

Christ was glorified, the thief was not. But where is he if Christ said he would be with Him in paradise the same day that they both died? Where is this place? ..........................the grave, 6 feet under? I think not. Read Rev 2. 2 Cor 12...............

Thoughts brother?
Frankie
PS....next.....read Jonah and his calling out within the fish. Check out the terms he uses. I think he really died, but yet speaketh

Christ went to the the grave or hades as we read in Acts 2:29-34. He did not go to paradise. The thief did not go to paradise on that day either! This can be solved by moving the comma to after "today". Then the obvious contradiction is removed. How do we know? There was no punctuation in Greek. Also the common phrase of the day was "I am telling you today.., you will be with me in paradise"

Manasseh_ · Apr 8, 2011

Mikecpking said:
Christ went to the the grave or hades as we read in Acts 2:29-34. He did not go to paradise. The thief did not go to paradise on that day either! This can be solved by moving the comma to after "today". Then the obvious contradiction is removed. How do we know? There was no punctuation in Greek. Also the common phrase of the day was "I am telling you today.., you will be with me in paradise"

I agree, but then again it's much more than whether a comma was placed in the right or wrong place.............

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

it's always referenced as to what Christ told the thief but rarely is it mentioned that which the thief asked of Christ which is really the foundation for what paradise is.

It would have been impossible for Christ to have promised the thief a place in his kingdom on that day.............
The obvious reason is that the 2 men were about to die and only Christ would rise again after 3 days and nights in the grave.

Christ does not receive his inheritance (kingdom) from the Father until the appointed time at his return

Christ told Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world
after his resurrection he would spend almost a month and half with his apostles before his ascension to heaven

So much more could be said about Christ's kingdom on earth and when it will be established but the point is simple, Christ likened his kingdom to paradise and rightfully so, when we understand the prophecies pertaining directly to his kingdom on earth.

What the thief asked Christ has turned paradise (his kingdom) into any entirely different circumstance and place than what was intended by the simple question and answer.

chalkstc · Apr 9, 2011

Mike,

There was no punctuation in Greek. Also the common phrase of the day was "I am telling you today.., you will be with me in paradise"

The JW's do exactly what you agree to. Of course He was telling him "today". What other day did they have left? If you read only the Grk, you would not come up with that opinion imo.

It seems obvioust that you Manasseh and I will not agree on this theme, and only death will prove which is right.

Between the two of you, there is too much to reply to without it getting exceedingly redundant.

I asked one of you about Ezek and "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". So according to you guys...................the soul that does not sinn shall also die. Is this what you believe? If so, what is the difference between sinner and saint? What was Ezek's point?

Manasseh,

I believe you said there was no difference between us and animal as to this soul issue. Not true..............

The earth simply and miraculously brought forth the beast of the field. No breath of God action with the beast as there is with man.

When Adam was formed, what was that substance? A clay sculpture as lifeless as an idol men made....................couldn't speak or move until God imparted something of Himself within the man...............He "breathed" into him and the man became a "living soul".

Now it should be obvious that God did not need earth's atmosphere to exist, but man does. So what did He breathe into the man? His personhood, intellect and ability to understand worship of his Creator. The man was now aware and even was given the chore of naming all the animals.

That took more than it appears on the surface imo. This inblowing was what gave man the soul/spirit. It was added to what earth could do as it did for the animals. Evem Eccc says the beast spirt goes down and man's spirit goes up or back to God who gave it.

This alone shows the separation back to clay sculpture when the body dies. That is what literal death means .......separation from one to another state. That is what James says.

Audience relevance does not mean no transcendance of truth to following generations, but tit does mean the present audience had to at least understand what the prophet spoke. So tell me how when this text will be fulfilled if the wicked are not raised on the same last day.........................

Matt 26:63

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

65 

Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

KJV

How will Caiaphas SEE Chjrist's SC if he is not raised? Wasn't he one of the ones who pierced Him? And these pierced ones will all see per Rev 1.

Jesus says His word will judge the wicked on the last day. How do you judge a dead soul as you say it is. And for the "rest of the dead" thst die at Armageddon...............how do they die the second death if they are not raised?

And if I take you guys to the end of the matter, then you must also believe in anihilation of the sinner............or that he does not suffer for Eternity. Is this your view also? If so, then everlasting condemnation means nothing. Thye smoke of their torment etc etc.
And without are dogs etc etc.

Back to the OT texts and audience relavance.............I believe Solomon sets a theme when he says "everything under the Sun". Thus when it says man knows nothing in the grave and has no rememberance means the dead one knows nothing of what is happening on the earth under the Sun. Or the dead no not nothing of earth's matters once they die. But they are conscious of where they are and certainly they are not praising the Lord in torments.

Did you peruse Jonah? How does he cry out to the Lord and the Lord hears him out of Sheol if Sheol is only the grave and Jonah is unconscious as you believe?

Thx guys,
Frankie

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