Mike,
There was no punctuation in Greek. Also the common phrase of the day was "I am telling you today.., you will be with me in paradise"
The JW's do exactly what you agree to. Of course He was telling him "today". What other day did they have left? If you read only the Grk, you would not come up with that opinion imo.
It seems obvioust that you Manasseh and I will not agree on this theme, and only death will prove which is right.
Between the two of you, there is too much to reply to without it getting exceedingly redundant.
I asked one of you about Ezek and "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". So according to you guys...................the soul that does
not sinn shall
also die. Is this what you believe? If so, what is the difference between sinner and saint? What was Ezek's point?
Manasseh,
I believe you said there was no difference between us and animal as to this soul issue. Not true..............
The earth simply and miraculously brought forth the beast of the field. No breath of God action with the beast as there is with man.
When Adam was formed, what was that substance? A clay sculpture as lifeless as an idol men made....................couldn't speak or move until God imparted something of Himself within the man...............He "breathed" into him and the man became a "living soul".
Now it should be obvious that God did not need earth's atmosphere to exist, but man does. So what did He breathe into the man? His personhood, intellect and ability to understand worship of his Creator. The man was now aware and even was given the chore of naming all the animals.
That took more than it appears on the surface imo. This inblowing was what gave man the soul/spirit. It was added to what earth could do as it did for the animals. Evem Eccc says the beast spirt goes down and man's spirit goes up or back to God who gave it.
This alone shows the separation back to clay sculpture when the body dies. That is what literal death means .......separation from one to another state. That is what James says.
Audience relevance does not mean no transcendance of truth to following generations, but tit does mean the present audience had to at least understand what the prophet spoke. So tell me how when this text will be fulfilled if the wicked are not raised on the same last day.........................
Matt 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
KJV
How will Caiaphas SEE Chjrist's SC if he is not raised? Wasn't he one of the ones who pierced Him? And these pierced ones will all see per Rev 1.
Jesus says His word will judge the wicked on the last day. How do you judge a dead soul as you say it is. And for the "rest of the dead" thst die at Armageddon...............how do they die the second death if they are not raised?
And if I take you guys to the end of the matter, then you must also believe in anihilation of the sinner............or that he does not suffer for Eternity. Is this your view also? If so, then everlasting condemnation means nothing. Thye smoke of their torment etc etc.
And without are dogs etc etc.
Back to the OT texts and audience relavance.............I believe Solomon sets a theme when he says "everything under the Sun". Thus when it says man knows nothing in the grave and has no rememberance means the dead one knows nothing of what is happening on the earth under the Sun. Or the dead no not nothing of earth's matters once they die. But they are conscious of where they are and certainly they are not praising the Lord in torments.
Did you peruse Jonah? How does he cry out to the Lord and the Lord hears him out of Sheol if Sheol is only the grave and Jonah is unconscious as you believe?
Thx guys,
Frankie