Abortion is a Win-Win Scenario.

chris4243,

It's zero according to our legal system because people who kill that lump of cells are not charged with murder.

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It may be zero according to your legal system but as I have pointed out, killing Jews was legal in Nazi Germany. What is your opinion of it?

It is zero according to me because it lacks a sufficiently developed brain.

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Ok, but what do you by sufficient and why would your criteria of sufficient be sufficient to terminate the life when others don’t agree?

So when do you consider it a person that shouldn’t be terminated, the start or the end of the second trimester? The second trimester is commonly considered around the 14th week to the 28th week.

brightmorningstar said:

chris4243,
It may be zero according to your legal system but as I have pointed out, killing Jews was legal in Nazi Germany. What is your opinion of it?

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My opinion is that it is pretty easy to demonstrate that Jews are people. I can even tell you how many people each Jew is. Meanwhile, you can't tell how many people a zygote is. See the difference?

Ok, but what do you by sufficient and why would your criteria of sufficient be sufficient to terminate the life when others don’t agree?

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Others do agree. Also, it is usual that actions are allowed unless forbidden (ie, we presume liberty but with exceptions, not the other way around). Since people do not believe that fetuses should never be killed, we have that freedom by default. If others disagree, they're free not to do so themselves. If others wish to make it a law, a restriction on people's freedoms, they are expected to give a good reason as to why. You have not done so -- all you have said is that you disagree, without giving a reason and despite the problems your idea presents re the definition of a person.

So when do you consider it a person that shouldn’t be terminated, the start or the end of the second trimester? The second trimester is commonly considered around the 14th week to the 28th week.

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I answered this back in post 108, and have not changed my mind since.

lux et lex said:

Of course it's not murder. Abortion isn't murder either. It's legal. For what seems to be the trillionth time, murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another with malice aforethought. You can't just choose to redefine works...our lexicon does not work that way.

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My Oxford dictionary defines murder like this: "Often applied to a death sentence, killing of men in war, or any action causing destruction of human life, which is regarded as morally wicked, whether legal or not. To slaughter in a terrible manner; to massacre."

There is legal murder and moral murder. It may be legal - that does not make it right.

Moral murder? I find that laughable.

Are murderers always a murderer or do they stop being a murderer when forgiven upon asking for it?

lux et lex said:

Moral murder? I find that laughable.

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Which dictionary are we going to go by? Murder isn't just killing someone illegally. It's killing someone who is innocent.There are many things that used to be legal that we think are wrong today. Does that mean if they were legal you would think them right? *Deliberately not bringing up holocaust* Things such as slavery, or ethnic/religious groups who were not given legal personhood.

According to Black's Legal Dictionary:

murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.

chris4243,
Your point was about what is legal, not about whether you can easily demonstrate something. So hiding behind saying something is legal in one country, as you have subsequently shown, doesn’t necessarily make it right. It is pretty easy to demonstrate that zygotes and foetus are people.
As to your post #108, so how can you support a legal law limiting the time for abortion at so many weeks, when you can’t say at what week the person becomes viable?

NB I can say how many people a zygote is, I have given the Wiki description yet you seem unable to accept it.

My definition of a person is a complicated thing based on the capabilities contained in the brain, but since that gradually develops I can't point to a specific point in time.

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Well I can accept that, but are you saying abortion should really be dependent on what you think?

As for abortion, I think it ought be prevented as much as possible for moral reasons (by avoiding unwanted pregnancies), I would encourage people to adopt babies that would have otherwise been unwanted (so reducing reasons for people to get abortions).

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Well I agree with you here but what is your moral reason where the aborted zygote or foetus is not a person in your view?

The reason I support the right of women to have abortions is because of Jesus's commandment, "Love your neighbor as yourself.", and because of what I believe to be a person or not.

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Which is presumably the same reason why people see fit to murder abortion doctors. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? What a hopeless mindset you present. Alas, as has been shown it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ and is the opposite of His command to love your neighbour as yourself. Indeed to the question who is my neighbour, Jesus illustrated the very people the audience didn’t consider their neighbour, for them the Samaritans, for society today the unborn child.

In short, pro-choice abortion is as much pre-meditated murder as anything else.
There is no logical reason for a legal limit on the weeks an abortion can or cannot occur, if no-one can decide when it definitely is. As different countries have different ideas when that is its clearly a pointless law in every case except where the law says no abortion.
It is one big pretext.
It is a genocide of immense proportions and real sickness.

As Mother Theresa said.
“It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships”
“But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child –“
Any country that accepts abortion, is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what it wants."
"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."

A good move in the UK if accepted.
Right to Know - what’s the problem?

Abortion is pure murder. It is taking away the gift of life received to the baby all because the couple who chose to have the baby aborted were too selfish to share space in their life for a baby. In no way should a Christian support, nor promote murder.

AJZero said:

---Abortion is pure murder.---

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How hard would life be after been forgiven on abortion?

What are the consequences if one is sorry they aborted?

I think hiding the abortion secret would be a lift long consequences and can drive a woman mad.

Should the forgiven expose the sins of abortion?

All can be forgiven, repentance is the key, anyone still defending abortion obviuously hasnt repented.

brightmorningstar said:

All can be forgiven, repentance is the key, anyone still defending abortion obviuously hasnt repented.

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So, repentance doesn't always mean that other people needs to know about the past abortion, right?

brightmorningstar said:

chris4243,
Your point was about what is legal, not about whether you can easily demonstrate something. So hiding behind saying something is legal in one country, as you have subsequently shown, doesn’t necessarily make it right. It is pretty easy to demonstrate that zygotes and foetus are people.

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Not hiding behind what is legal, just that if neither of us convinces anyone then you lose. If you want to change society, you need to convince them; if I want to keep society as is, I need do nothing.

As to your post #108, so how can you support a legal law limiting the time for abortion at so many weeks, when you can’t say at what week the person becomes viable?

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At what age do people become mature enough to enter into legally binding contracts? How can you support a law saying it happens exactly on a person's 18th birthday?

NB I can say how many people a zygote is, I have given the Wiki description yet you seem unable to accept it.

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All I asked for was a number. Is a zygote 0, 1/3, 1/2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 people, or how many?

Well I can accept that, but are you saying abortion should really be dependent on what you think?

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No, I'm saying the rest of the world accepts that and if you want to restrict the liberty of the rest of the world you're going to have to change their mind. It doesn't even matter if you're right, you still have to change their mind.

Well I agree with you here but what is your moral reason where the aborted zygote or foetus is not a person in your view?

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Extra caution. Same as we don't want people torturing animals because it seems to us too close to torturing people, even though most of us agree that animals aren't people.

Which is presumably the same reason why people see fit to murder abortion doctors. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? What a hopeless mindset you present. Alas, as has been shown it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ and is the opposite of His command to love your neighbour as yourself. Indeed to the question who is my neighbour, Jesus illustrated the very people the audience didn’t consider their neighbour, for them the Samaritans, for society today the unborn child.

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I'll consider that next time an unborn child pays my hospital bill.

In short, pro-choice abortion is as much pre-meditated murder as anything else.

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Yet what you think has little relevance to what society thinks. Convince society that the fetus is a person, and they'll outlaw abortion. Complain that only you know the truth, and they'll laugh at you.

brightmorningstar said:

All can be forgiven, repentance is the key, anyone still defending abortion obviuously hasnt repented.

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No need to repent of anything done with a clean conscience, not in the new testament anyhow.

chris4243,

Not hiding behind what is legal,

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Then don’t mention what a particular country’s law is… especially as because different countries have different limits of what they think is a viable person.

At what age do people become mature enough to enter into legally binding contracts? How can you support a law saying it happens exactly on a person's 18th birthday?

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Now you have answered my question with a question again. Try answering the question, I consider the killing of someone a crime, I do not consider the point in time when people are allowed rights a crime.

No, I'm saying the rest of the world accepts that and if you want to restrict the liberty of the rest of the world you're going to have to change their mind. It doesn't even matter if you're right, you still have to change their mind.

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No, the rest of the world cannot decide when a person in viable, some countries do not allow abortion legally and others have all kinds of ideas, but the UK for example has 24 week limit and the rest of Europe mostly 12, that’s at the end and the start of the second trimester you proposed. But you cant even say which of the two extremes you consider correct.

Yet what you think has little relevance to what society thinks.

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Ah many in society agree with me so, and so do a few societies; such a response is misinformed.

Convince society that the fetus is a person, and they'll outlaw abortion.

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I know that’s what we are trying to do. Some societies know this, and many in your society do as well.

Complain that only you know the truth, and they'll laugh at you.

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I am sure they laughed when the abortion doctor got killed. Again, I am not bothered about that, our aim is to save the lives of the unborn children.
We do know the truth, life starts at conception, and many others know it as well, unlike those societies who allow abortion at all kinds of different times because none of them can agree when they think a life is viable.

No need to repent of anything done with a clean conscience, not in the new testament anyhow.

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Yes it is, the NT tells us what we need to repent of, anyone who has read it cannot excuse themselves of not knowing the truth.

brightmorningstar said:

No, the rest of the world cannot decide when a person in viable, some countries do not allow abortion legally and others have all kinds of ideas, but the UK for example has 24 week limit and the rest of Europe mostly 12, that’s at the end and the start of the second trimester you proposed. But you cant even say which of the two extremes you consider correct.

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Exactly. It is as I said, there is no point where a bunch of cells becomes a person; there is no correct extreme, as I've told you before. Both those extremes are acceptable to me, because the woman in question has had enough time to find out whether she is pregnant and whether she wants the baby, and because development occurs at different rates for different babies there couldn't be a given date that would be correct anyways.

Though I think the UK will lower their limit -- they're too close to the age when most people will consider fetuses to become people, and there ought to be plenty of leeway. But it will not be the likes of you who will change their mind.

brightmorningstar said:

We do know the truth, life starts at conception,

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Yet you don't know how many lives start at conception.

chris4243,

Exactly. It is as I said, there is no point where a bunch of cells becomes a person; there is no correct extreme, as I've told you before.

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Which means the UK may be allowing the ternination of lives which some other countries may or may not. What a pathetic and ignorant situation.

As to the UK, most people actually from the polls do not consider 24 acceptable and a huge minority realise the start of life is at conception.

Yet you don't know how many lives start at conception.

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yes we do, every life starts at conception but we dont even need to know as we arent proposing to terninate any lives through pro-choiuce abortion.

brightmorningstar said:

yes we do, every life starts at conception but we dont even need to know as we arent proposing to terninate any lives through pro-choiuce abortion.

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That wasn't the question. When a sperm fertilizes an egg, how many lives result? Please answer with a number instead of gibberish.

All this talk of "pro choice abortion" has got me thinking...is there such a thing as "pro life abortion"? If not, why add "pro choice" to the term abortion?