Were you ever an unborn child?

lux et lex · Mar 31, 2011

So you are fine with a woman dying due to medical complications that could effectively be handed by an abortion, and if she keeps the pregnancy she will likely die, as will her fetus? What about starting cancer treatments for women who were diagnosed during their pregnancy? What about her other children?

brightmorningstar · Mar 31, 2011

Lux et Lex,

So you are fine with a woman dying due to medical complications that could effectively be handed by an abortion, and if she keeps the pregnancy she will likely die, as will her fetus? What about starting cancer treatments for women who were diagnosed during their pregnancy? What about her other children?

Wow! Hang on, if you aren’t bothered about millions of babies dying just because the parents don’t want it, I hardly think the comparatively few instances of this should be the primary concern.

tootall68 · Mar 31, 2011

There is 115,000 abortions every single day on average. The number of women doing just because they were "not ready" out ways medical circumstances by far. If I have to choose one way or the other I would choose life but that's just me. Like I said in my first post it doesn't matter what you or I think, the only thing that matters is what God thinks. Now when we are being judged, if I'm wrong then oh we. If your wrong Mr lux someone will have to answer for the 115000 stolen lives everyday.

Rajni · Mar 31, 2011

tootall68 said:
Yeah I am. God is not going to put something on you that you can't handle. I know 4 or 5 people who have been advised to abort a pregnancy due to some kind of health issue. They didn't do it and now them and their babys are fine. But as far as people with health issues I can see more than people who do it just because. Every who is for abortion at least had the opportunity to be born.

What I will probably not be able to figure out this side of the Pearly Gates is how God knows in advance which bodies will be aborted and which ones won't, and proceeds with assigning souls to them anyway. I suspect there's a lot more going on behind the scenes than we see from the outside. I don't think He would do it the way He does, however, if He thought the soul of the baby in question was in any danger.
.

.

solarwave · Mar 31, 2011

tootall68 said:
Lol then we agree to disagree then. Here is something I think we can both agree on. If people followed the teaching of the bible there would be no need for abortion. The bible tells us (and I'm only paraphrase) that sex is only for the bed of the married. If we all followed Gods word we would have abortion to be arguing about, but I guess if a frog had a gun birds wouldn't mess with him.

I think 'lux et lex' makes a good point that abortion do happen in marriage.

liesje said:
Hi

There's one minor problem here...He's God. We aren't.

I believe morality is absolute and doesn't change based on who is acting.

brightmorningstar said:
Its really very simple. No egg on its own, and no sperm on its own develops into a human being, but conception and the fusion into a zygote has begun the development of a human being. So the human being starts at conception.

Is an acorn an oak tree?

brightmorningstar · Mar 31, 2011

solarwave,

Is an acorn an oak tree?

Is an acorn not an oak tree developing?
I think you will find it is. If one aborts an acorn the oak tree it was developing into has been terminated.
Was an oak tree ever an acorn, yes.
Was we all ever an unborn child, yes.

grasping the after wind · Mar 31, 2011

solarwave said:
I believe morality is absolute and doesn't change based on who is acting.

So God is not in charge? If God is subject to morality then morality is in charge and God is not the first cause because morality exists previous to and outside of God's will or creation.

brightmorningstar · Mar 31, 2011

So God is not in charge? If God is subject to morality then morality is in charge and God is not the first cause because morality exists previous to and outside of God's will or creation.

Exactly, for those who do not think it is God, who exactly is saying what morality is?

hollyda · Mar 31, 2011

Do you believe in God? If the answer is yes, please proceed.

Do you believe in God's will? If the answer is yes, please proceed.

Do you believe that whatever happens is in God's will? If the answer is yes, please proceed.

Do you think anything happens that is not in God's will? If the answer is yes, please proceed.

Do you believe abortions are against God's will? If the answer is yes, please proceed.

If abortions are against God's will, how are the explained?

If abortions are NOT against God's will, what does that say about God?

For the record, I maintain my earlier position. I'm just curious.

solarwave · Mar 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
solarwave,
Is an acorn not an oak tree developing?
I think you will find it is. If one aborts an acorn the oak tree it was developing into has been terminated.
Was an oak tree ever an acorn, yes.
Was we all ever an unborn child, yes.

An acorn is not an oak tree. It may become an oak tree, but it isn't one yet. Even when I was pro-life I said the fetus was a potential person rather than a person.

I agree that we were all once unborn children, but my point was that there is a clear difference between these two states.

grasping the after wind said:
So God is not in charge? If God is subject to morality then morality is in charge and God is not the first cause because morality exists previous to and outside of God's will or creation.

God isn't totally in charge. If He were then nothing would make any sense really.

My true view is that God, logic and morality are all the same thing and are unchanging. God can't change morality any more than He can choose to be evil or make a square triangle in my opinion.

liesje · Mar 31, 2011

solarwave said:
I believe morality is absolute and doesn't change based on who is acting.

I disagree. God has the right to do whatever he likes - he is God, and he created us. We are the created, and have no right to kill and destroy as we please.

lux et lex · Mar 31, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Lux et Lex,
Wow! Hang on, if you arent bothered about millions of babies dying just because the parents dont want it, I hardly think the comparatively few instances of this should be the primary concern.

You took what I said out of the context in which I said it. I was speaking about the notion that if people followed the Bible to a T that there would be no more abortions. And then I was talking about abortions that occur during marriage.

lux et lex · Mar 31, 2011

tootall68 said:
There is 115,000 abortions every single day on average. The number of women doing just because they were "not ready" out ways medical circumstances by far. If I have to choose one way or the other I would choose life but that's just me. Like I said in my first post it doesn't matter what you or I think, the only thing that matters is what God thinks. Now when we are being judged, if I'm wrong then oh we. If your wrong Mr lux someone will have to answer for the 115000 stolen lives everyday.

That's Ms. Lux to you.

hollyda · Mar 31, 2011

tootall68 said:
There is 115,000 abortions every single day on average. The number of women doing just because they were "not ready" out ways medical circumstances by far. If I have to choose one way or the other I would choose life but that's just me. Like I said in my first post it doesn't matter what you or I think, the only thing that matters is what God thinks. Now when we are being judged, if I'm wrong then oh we. If your wrong Mr lux someone will have to answer for the 115000 stolen lives everyday.

If you're pro-life, you can't be choosey about the sort of life you endorse. Do you care about the woman's safety? Or do they deserve death if they seek an illegal abortion?

[SIZE=+3]T[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]hroughout history, women have had unplanned and unwanted pregnancies. And throughout history, women have found ways to terminate those pregnancies.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]But what has not always been guaranteed is whether they can do so legally, with the medical care necessary to protect their health--or if they must seek illegal, "back-alley" abortions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In the years just before abortion became legal in 1973, hospital wards were filled with women seeking abortions--who either had been injured or become sick obtaining an illegal abortion under dangerous conditions, or who had tried to induce the abortion themselves.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Desperate women used a number of dangerous means to terminate pregnancies. Some sought abortions from back-alley abortionists, with usually humiliating and sometimes deadly results. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Other women tried to induce abortions with homemade means--such as a bleach douche, or inserting sharp instruments into her cervix. This is why the now almost forgotten image of the wire coat hanger became the symbol of the abortion rights movement. - [/SIZE][SIZE=+2]ELIZABETH SCHULTE[/SIZE]

No matter what you do, no matter what legislation passes, OUR SOCIETY WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER be rid of abortion. EVER. What we CAN control by keeping it legal is that no further loss of life will be suffered as a result of a back-alley abortion. That no woman will die of infection because she didn't have a sterile procedure.

So are you just pro-fetus? Or can you at least admit that abortion has always been around, will always be around, and the safety of all parties must be taken into consideration?

Rajni · Mar 31, 2011

hollyda said:
If you're pro-life, you can't be choosey about the sort of life you endorse. Do you care about the woman's safety?

Very good question. Also, to be pro-life and not pro-choice in it's purest form, one would also have to reconsider their stance on the death penalty. Otherwise, they're simply pro-baby-life, which, while definitely a step in the right direction, is still, technically pro-choice.

.

solarwave · Mar 31, 2011

liesje said:
I disagree. God has the right to do whatever he likes - he is God, and he created us. We are the created, and have no right to kill and destroy as we please.

I'm not sure if I agree. To be able to call God good in any objective way God must come under morality. Anything else is just the wims of someone who is just big and powerful and we have no reason to follow Him other than so that we arn't throwing into a burning pit or maybe because He will reward us for following His arbitrary laws.

The other side of the argument is that we are the creatures and God gave us life so God can do want He wants with us; we wouldn't apply this reasoning to our children though. Maybe God can do what He wants with us, but that doesn't make Him loving.

In my opinion God is good and loving in the most objective and absolute sense which is based on more than His own will (He can't will rape to be good). I'm not saying this justified abortion though.

brightmorningstar · Apr 1, 2011

solarwave,

An acorn is not an oak tree. It may become an oak tree, but it isn't one yet.

That doesnt address my question though. I agree one can say an acorn is not an oak tree. I can agree one can say it may become and oak tree. It all depends on how one looks at it. The fact that the seed stage, the acorn, is physically different from the fully grown oak tree means one can look at it in the way you describe to separate the two. However my question was Is an acorn not an oak tree developing? And the answer to that is yes as well. The acorn is a oak tree developing because it wont be developing into anything else. Whether it may become an oak tree would depend on whether it dies by natural causes or is intentionally aborted.
This is the issue, whilst what you have described is valid, what I have described is also valid, but to admit the acorn is a tree at the start of its development would mean to terminate it, terminates the tree.
What is the difference between all those throughout history who treated other peoples as sub-human and exterminated them and pro-choice abortion.

God isn't totally in charge. If He were then nothing would make any sense really.

Whether it makes sense is debatable, God is in charge and it makes perfect sense to me, The first scriptures that come to my mind is
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16)
and also where Jesus said He could call down angels to save Him?
54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?
Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from Gods sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

brightmorningstar · Apr 1, 2011

If you're pro-life, you can't be choosey about the sort of life you endorse. Do you care about the woman's safety?

Good point. Firstly imagine the pro-life position didnt. What would the pro-choice position care?
No, the pro-life position is pro-life, if it chooses to abort the baby to save the mother if both are going to die, its pro-life because it has saved a life. Pro-choice always destroys the babies life.
Quite how the pro-choice argument has the arrogance and audacity to ask such a question is sad.

Incidentally the murder of the abortion doctor is an issue the pro-life side needs to address itself. If its pro-life one cant have that murder of an abortion doctor. God is the one who can carry out any and condemnation, not humans. But its not an issue for the pro-choice argument as they are already defending the murder of millions of babies.

hollyda · Apr 1, 2011

brightmorningstar said:
Incidentally the murder of the abortion doctor is an issue the pro-life side needs to address itself. If its pro-life one cant have that murder of an abortion doctor. God is the one who can carry out any and condemnation, not humans. But its not an issue for the pro-choice argument as they are already defending the murder of millions of babies.

I'm just going to have to repeat myself, aren't I?

No matter what you do, no matter what legislation passes, OUR SOCIETY WILL NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER be rid of abortion. EVER. What we CAN control by keeping it legal is that no further loss of life will be suffered as a result of a back-alley abortion. That no woman will die of infection because she didn't have a sterile procedure.

I am not speaking for the pro-choice movement, but I have enough sense to realize no matter what is done legally to restrict abortion, we will never be without it. And because I do believe life is sacred (shock!), I want to ensure that the life of the mother (also sacred -- she is "a life", after all) is kept safe during a procedure she will get regardless. This sound a little bit like love the sinner, hate the sin to you?

Prohibition made alcohol a very lucrative business. What do you honestly think will happen if Roe is overturned? If it's "all abortion will be gone forever and ever," you're living in a fantasy world.

brightmorningstar · Apr 1, 2011

hollyda,
The aborting of a baby is killing, so I don’t care whether it is deemed legal in a country or not, its still killing child. If its done underground it is killing a child, if it is done in a clinic it is killing a child.

I want to ensure that the life of the mother (also sacred -- she is "a life", after all) is kept safe during a procedure she will get regardless.

Then you can’t say ‘also sacred’ and 'regardless', also means sacred as well. Why not either save both or the baby instead of the mother? After all the mother had the choice to conceive in the first place and has the choice to take responsibility for the baby. The baby doesn’t.

This sound a little bit like love the sinner, hate the sin to you?

No, the killing of a baby is hardly love is it.

Prohibition made alcohol a very lucrative business. What do you honestly think will happen if Roe is overturned?

Sadly for your argument, abortion occurred before Roe made abortion legal, so why would one be concerned at its reversal? Could it be that abortion has increased as a result of Roe perhaps because Roe has endorsed it as legal?

Society needs to have the notion that abortion is murdering a child. Always forgive and support but if people realise what they are doing then they wont be so keen on doing it, and pro-choice looses its power.

Were you ever an unborn child?

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